Digdoug - Episode 10

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Omnimancer » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:53 am

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:Actually no it was indeed the loss of the Capital. Wanda became Ruler when her father croaked (hence how she was able to see all those lights) and her troops then disbanded when the last unit in the city went out and she lost her Ruler senses. It was definitely the loss of the city which triggered the Disband.
Agreed, that is exactly how it happened, so the death of Overlord Firebaugh couldn't have caused it, but I also recognize that drachefly has a point that we're not sure why the loss of Goodminton city caused field units to disband. It could be because Goodminton city was Goodminton's capital, but it could also be because Goodminton city was Goodminton's last city, or because it was Goodminton's last capital-site city. That would explain why Slately didn't seem to think transferring the capital was important.


Yeah, I think it's safe to say that your capital isn't vital as long as you have a backup capital site. Otherwise Slately would have tried to moving capitals first thing, instead of Charlie suggesting it. That's not to say it would be pleasant though. You'd probably lose the current shmuckers in your treasury (not really an issue in Jetstone's case because they were low on cash anyway).

The real question is what happens if your side still has cities but no other capital sites left. I see a few possibilities:

1) Your side ends and units disband, become barbarian, or freeze in time as if a ruler was slain.

2) Your side continues, but without the important functions of the capital. You can't pop or promote heirs, no portal, etc. Without a treasury your finances may be thrown in disarray, which itself has many possibilities. Maybe you can only exist as long as you have gems stockpiled, maybe you can still gain upkeep from cities but can't save shmuckers for future turns, maybe you're reduced to using individual unit purses, maybe your treasury just restarts elsewhere, that's all unclear.

3) All cities are capable of being the capital, and it just automatically switches to a new one. It's implied that "capital site" is a terrain type, but we don't know that for sure. Perhaps when people were specifically seeking out capital sites they were looking for city sites ideal for being a capital, but it's also possible to have a capital in less ideal city sites too if absolutely necessary.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:23 am

Omnimancer wrote:Your side ends and units disband, become barbarian, or freeze in time as if a ruler was slain.
The part about the side ending isn't possible, since Faq managed to continue without any cities. All of the rest of it seems possible.

Omnimancer wrote:All cities are capable of being the capital, and it just automatically switches to a new one. It's implied that "capital site" is a terrain type, but we don't know that for sure. Perhaps when people were specifically seeking out capital sites they were looking for city sites ideal for being a capital, but it's also possible to have a capital in less ideal city sites too if absolutely necessary.
As far as I'm aware this is could be correct. The concept of capital sites is only mentioned in a very few places. One obvious place is B0E33: "Jillian’s role now was to forego her mercenary duties and scout the world for a capital site or barbarian capital city."

I think the best we can do is find every place where the phrase "capital site" is mentioned and try to guess from context what it exactly means.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby drachefly » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:01 pm

0beron wrote:
drachefly wrote:It was the death of Wanda's dad that triggered the mass-disband.
(states the obvious)


oops.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:24 am

awwww it's ok Drache, we all forget details sometimes. Omni did point out that we can't technically know if the disband happened due to the loss of the capital, or the loss of the final city, because in that case Goodminton City was both of the above.
Logic and experience though tells us the former, because a Capital is necessary for a Treasury, and without source of Upkeep units are known to Disband.
Last edited by 0beron on Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:39 am

0beron wrote:Logic and experience though tells us the former, because a Capital is necessary for a Treasury, and without a Treasury units are known to Disband.
Units disband if their upkeep can't be paid, but surely that can't be the reason that field units disbanded when Goodminton fell. If they were going to disband for lack of shmuckers, then they should only have disbanded when their upkeep shmuckers were due to be paid, not immediately.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Omnimancer » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:15 am

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:Logic and experience though tells us the former, because a Capital is necessary for a Treasury, and without a Treasury units are known to Disband.
Units disband if their upkeep can't be paid, but surely that can't be the reason that field units disbanded when Goodminton fell. If they were going to disband for lack of shmuckers, then they should only have disbanded when their upkeep shmuckers were due to be paid, not immediately.


And they could have potentially gotten their upkeep by hunting or foraging, even if the treasury wasn't paying it anymore.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:11 pm

*sorry I made a typo, I meant to say that without Upkeep units are known to disband. My bad, that post prolly didn't make as much sense the way I worded it before.

Omnimancer wrote:..they could have potentially gotten their upkeep by hunting or foraging, even if the treasury wasn't paying it anymore.
Could have, perhaps. But they weren't stacked with a Wanda so they weren't given that chance. They were off-turn, so they wouldn't have gotten a chance to look for food the next day before the turn began anyway. So when their source of upkeep is cut, they disband immediately. Its a bit harsh, yeah. But clearly thats the way it works, cus it's what happened.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:36 pm

0beron wrote:So when their source of upkeep is cut, they disband immediately. Its a bit harsh, yeah. But clearly thats the way it works, cus it's what happened.
It's clear that they disbanded for some reason, but the reason is not clear. All of those units could easily have found a new source of upkeep, even though it wasn't their turn. Haffaton was on its way to capture Wanda, and anyone who chose to could have turned to Haffaton and had a source of upkeep before the end of the turn. Also, there is supposed to be a disbanding order that determines who disbands first when the shmuckers run out, but it seems that no such order was used since exactly all the units not in Wanda's stack disbanded.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:52 pm

Guys... I'm pretty sure all those troops you're both talking about were zero upkeep Uncroaked. Why would it matter if you had any money when your army doesn't use any? Going to go look it up right now to be sure.

Yep, here in IPTSF 26:
She rode atop Funnyface, the only mount in the group. He was her favorite sawhorse, and also the only living unit in the column besides Wanda herself. His warmth and the steam of his breath were reassuring. She patted his neck often.

They walked at the fore of five-hundred-eleven uncroaked, stacked up with the best of the Fellows, including un-Tommy marching mindlessly beside her.
So this entire discussion about upkeep is irrelevant. Way to read the text. Good job.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:38 pm

Just because they don't need it doesn't necessarily exempt them from the mechanic. Like I said, it's harsh, but nobody ever said Erfworld was kind, fair, or even logical. Just because we know the units in question could have continued to exist doesn't exempt them from a blanket sort of "if then" check by Erfworld's mechanics.

Also technically speaking, I don't believe we actually know if uncroaked are upkeep-free. We just have Stanley saying they're "cheap to feed" which implies free but didn't directly say it. So yeah, they're probably free, but we can't really accept that as fact unless I'm forgetting a different reference than Book 1.
Last edited by 0beron on Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:07 am

0beron wrote:Like I said, it's harsh, but nobody ever said Erfworld was kind, fair, or even logical. Just because we know the units in question could have continued to exist doesn't exempt them from a blanket sort of "if then" check by Erfworld's mechanics.
A theory must be on seriously shaky ground if being illogical is counted as supporting evidence. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Erfworld probably is logical.

0beron wrote:Also technically speaking, I don't believe we actually know if uncroaked are upkeep-free. We just have Stanley saying they're "cheap to feed" which implies free but didn't directly say it.
I don't think we have any direct indication that uncroaked have zero upkeep, but we know that decrypted have zero upkeep, so zero upkeep is probably the best guess for uncroaked. We also have Parson somehow guessing that the decrypted have zero upkeep in B1P145. Where does he get that from? Is he basing it on the zero upkeep of the uncroaked, or is he seeing it with his glasses? B1K4 seems to show us what his glasses show him, and upkeep is not listed. Also, in B0E26, Wanda wasn't able to sense the upkeep of units until she became their ruler, so Parson probably doesn't need that sense just to have the senses of an ordinary warlord, which would justify it not being included in what the glasses show him.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby drachefly » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:52 am

Do you have any other hypotheses to explain the mass-disband?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:36 pm

drachefly wrote:Do you have any other hypotheses to explain the mass-disband?
I can certainly take guesses. Based on the way Jetstone was in no rush to transfer their capital and on Faq's plan to transfer their capital after they had lost their main three cities in the Predicted attack, I'm going to suppose losing the capital is nothing serious if you have a surviving ruler and another capital site ready to take over the job as the new capital. I'm going to suppose that capital site is a special terrain type and not just a subjective judgment about a site that would make a good place for a capital. Based on the term "capital side" I'm going to suppose that having a capital site is what distinguishes ordinary sides from barbarian sides. Based on the fact that Jillian uses the term "barbarian city" to talk about cities that are clearly neutral, I'm going to suppose that barbarian sides cannot own cities, so all barbarian cities are neutral. Maybe when a barbarian side captures a non-capital-site city it is immediately auto-razed.

Based on all these guesses, my theory is when a side's ruler escapes the loss of the side's last capital site, the side becomes barbarian and in becoming barbarian the side is knocked down by the design of Erfworld to be like the sort of barbarians that might pop naturally in the wild. Otherwise, barbarian sides that were former capital sides could be as powerful and dangerous as capital sides, rather than being mere barbarians. Assuming that the effect is similar to what happens when the ruler dies with no heir, I'm going to guess that all remaining cities become neutral so the side cannot use them for income. Surely becoming neutral can't just be a mere mechanical effect; the people who live in those cities still have their own minds and desires, so it shouldn't be possible for a mechanic of Erfworld to turn them neutral while their side still exists. Maybe Erfworld is even more brutal and disbands even the people in their cities in order to create neutral empty cities. However that works, it seems unlikely that Erfworld would allow barbarians to have an army in a city if they aren't allowed to have an army in the field, so something must be done about the cities.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby drachefly » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:09 am

So you say it's something about being a barbarian. But we have had barbarian units survive in more than one stack - in more than one hex, even - on several occasions.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:31 am

drachefly wrote:We have had barbarian units survive in more than one stack - in more than one hex, even - on several occasions.
Huh? When did we see that? During the first fall of FAQ, they had units left in 3 places: Stacked with Banhammer, safely sent to the MK (where disbanding is negated), and Jillian who was a Captive (thus sustained by another side). Thats the only situation I can think of that comes close, am I forgetting something?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby drachefly » Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:55 am

When Jillian was captured in the opening pages of Book 1, her units did not disband. Of course, she was allied....

When Jillian visited Transylvito, she had to break stack with her mount, and... Oh, I guess she was still allied with them even if she didn't get along well with most of them.

So it could just be allied barbarians that can survive like that.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:18 am

drachefly wrote:When Jillian was captured in the opening pages of Book 1, her units did not disband.
We were talking about surviving the loss of the capital, not surviving in general. I agree that we've seen barbarian sides that weren't continuously gathered together in a single stack many times. It seems that at the moment the ruler becomes a barbarian he can only take one stack with him, while all the rest disband, but afterward he can have as many stacks as he likes. I'm also guessing that he can't have any cities, both at the moment of becoming a barbarian and afterward, but that's still very speculative.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby drachefly » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:32 pm

That you were so restricting your claim was not evident in the post I was originally replying to.
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