...so what about decrypted bats?

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...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby wih » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:36 am

So we know that Wanda can, based on some kind of natural thinkamancy innate to them, look through a decrypted Archon's eyes.
This sounds very, very similar to TV's bats.
Speculation: Would Wanda be able to do the same via TV bats? Would it be more efficient for Parson to get Wanda a large quantity of bats, than Archons for the purposes she requested?
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby ftl » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:14 pm

It seems plausible. Would make sense that decrypted bats can be used like live bats - as scouts with limited range, which can be extended indefinitely by an appropriate caster, and it would make sense that Wanda could be that caster for the decrypted.

Parson can't easily 'get bats' though - that requires going to war with Transylvito, who's been keeping their own units away from the fray. And given the current turmoil in Transylvito, it might be the case that it makes more sense to negotiate a peace rather than go to war; and just getting some scouts seems like a bad reason to invade.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:42 pm

Also don't forget that the Archon's aren't solely useful for Wanda's ability to see through them...in fact she didn't even share this when Parson was having them run scout missions for Dwagons.....which is interesting. Anyway I digress. They were valuable because they could hide, and spot veils better/always. They can't simply be replaced by Bats entirely, although having Bats (if this decrypto-vision works with them too) would finally fill the void left by Misty's loss.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby conmor » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:28 am

wanda is able to do it with the archons because of their natural thinkamancy. also with the TV situation my guess of their action is to agree to take care of carpool in exchange for a treaty, for TV to devote more units then they normally would to their faq attack agenda, and TV to capture ansome and vanna.
bats are useful to TV because their strategy is to get a lot of small units and pile a lot of bonuses on to them. like vinny was saying about the ones with the cw personal bonus being like heavies and them having hundreds of them.
Last edited by conmor on Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby wih » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:50 am

Thinkamancers can look through a bat's eyes.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby conmor » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:27 am

wih wrote:Thinkamancers can look through a bat's eyes.

that means maggie could look through a bats eye's to scout not wanda. the archons ALREADY had natural thinkamancy
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby Godzfirefly » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:45 pm

conmor wrote: that means maggie could look through a bats eye's to scout not wanda. the archons ALREADY had natural thinkamancy

I think the point is that we don't know that. We haven't seen Maggie or any other Thinkamancer look through another unit's eyes. So, it is possible the bats do have a bit of Thinkamancy that makes it possible.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby wih » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:32 am

Godzfirefly wrote:We haven't seen Maggie or any other Thinkamancer look through another unit's eyes. So, it is possible the bats do have a bit of Thinkamancy that makes it possible.


Bingo. I'm expecting that a Bat's (and for that matter, a Scout's) ability to report back, and specifically the Bat's ability to be remotely viewed, is Natural Thinkamancy.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby 0beron » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:00 am

Actually, we have even less than that to go on. Here's what we do know:
  • Vampire/Transylvito Warlords can tame wild Doombats
  • Bunny looks through their eyes
  • Vinny also looks through their eyes (Book 1,49)
Which at least narrows down our list to confirm the remote-vision isn't a Thinkamancer-only ability. So the possible answers are the Bats have a natural Thinkamancy much like Archons, or that Vampire units have a special connection to them much like Wanda has to Decrypted/Uncroaked.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:26 pm

0beron wrote:Actually, we have even less than that to go on. Here's what we do know:
  • Vampire/Transylvito Warlords can tame wild Doombats
  • Bunny looks through their eyes
  • Vinny also looks through their eyes (Book 1,49)
Which at least narrows down our list to confirm the remote-vision isn't a Thinkamancer-only ability. So the possible answers are the Bats have a natural Thinkamancy much like Archons, or that Vampire units have a special connection to them much like Wanda has to Decrypted/Uncroaked.

Or that Vinnie has a special ability to see through bat eyes. Or that Bunny was using some of her juice to let Vinnie see through bat eyes.

Or several other possibilities with progressively smaller probabilities of being true.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby 0beron » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:47 pm

Granted, Vinny being special is possible, so long as we agree its highly unlikely. In a story like this, we have to assume 1 example is universally representative unless it's stated or shown otherwise. Rob has to show us things by example, and when the example is out of the norm, he does a pretty good job of having the characters note as much.
As for Bunny doing it, I'd rule that out entirely. If she had been, we really should have seen a shot of her. Moreover, it'd be a waste of her Juice considering that if Vinny couldn't view on his own, he could simply order the Bat to go out and return after. If it doesn't return, he knows it croaked.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby conmor » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:54 pm

units (with the ability to scout) do have a range for scouting (the orlies were 22). i think that it is possible that within the unit's range, it is possible for a command unit to see what the unit sees. otherwise what would've been the point of nonspeaking units like orlies being used for scouts.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby Silversought » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:59 pm

conmor wrote:units (with the ability to scout) do have a range for scouting (the orlies were 22). i think that it is possible that within the unit's range, it is possible for a command unit to see what the unit sees. otherwise what would've been the point of nonspeaking units like orlies being used for scouts.

That reference was about the Move of the orlies, conmor.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:24 pm

0beron wrote:As for Bunny doing it, I'd rule that out entirely. If she had been, we really should have seen a shot of her. Moreover, it'd be a waste of her Juice considering that if Vinny couldn't view on his own, he could simply order the Bat to go out and return after. If it doesn't return, he knows it croaked.

Do you really think so? I was thinking that was a pretty possible option, since economy of space suggests a picture of Bunny which doesn't contribute to the story and might require further explanation might be dropped to simplify the story.

As for tactics, the bats can certainly have greater range and utility if the bats can have their eyes seen through, so it's a matter of priorities between juice use and the need for scouting the area just before an attack. So, I don't know if it is a real "waste of juice" so much as an additional, useful option to spend juice on in the most prominent conflict the side is a part of.

That said, I've been known to grab a possibility and run with it, so I'm willing to accept that I could be overstating that possibility.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby conmor » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:47 pm

it still talks about units (bats in this case) having a range for scouting, but how a think can expand it infinitely. that still suggests that they have a range the they can report back to a warlord using a form of natural think (not like archons natural think, different and more limited) to allow the warlord to use their eyes. vinny was within about 10 or so hexes.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby 0beron » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:51 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:Do you really think so? I was thinking that was a pretty possible option, since economy of space suggests a picture of Bunny which doesn't contribute to the story and might require further explanation might be dropped to simplify the story.
As for tactics, the bats can certainly have greater range and utility if the bats can have their eyes seen through, so it's a matter of priorities between juice use and the need for scouting the area just before an attack. So, I don't know if it is a real "waste of juice" so much as an additional, useful option to spend juice on in the most prominent conflict the side is a part of.

Rob is very deliberate about avoiding confusion and showing us the full picture, unless there is a plot reason to conceal something, which was clearly not the case in that scene. In just as many panels, we could have been told Bunny was involved.

As for the value of using Bunny, I just realized that I got my scenes mixed up because I only looked at the page quickly. I was thinking of the scene later where they send a Bat in to check if the hex is empty, but that page is actually the original attack. However, in this scene, there's even less odds of Bunny being involved. The attack was sudden and unexpected, so it seems unlikely Bunny would have been paying attention to that particular Bat without warning. Being part of Vinny's personal Colony though, it WOULD make sense for him to pay attention to it.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby Silversought » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:53 pm

conmor wrote:it still talks about units (bats in this case) having a range for scouting, but how a think can expand it infinitely. that still suggests that they have a range the they can report back to a warlord using a form of natural think (not like archons natural think, different and more limited) to allow the warlord to use their eyes. vinny was within about 10 or so hexes.


Bats. Not Scouts. Nobody's ever seen through an orly's eyes, conmor.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:55 pm

conmor wrote:it still talks about units (bats in this case) having a range for scouting, but how a think can expand it infinitely. that still suggests that they have a range the they can report back to a warlord using a form of natural think (not like archons natural think, different and more limited) to allow the warlord to use their eyes. vinny was within about 10 or so hexes.

Conmor is right to an extent. The bats are mentioned as having a limited range that they can be used to view through their eyes, with a mild hint that it might be a thing for scouts in general, but bunny boosts it to an infinite distance.
0beron wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:Do you really think so? I was thinking that was a pretty possible option, since economy of space suggests a picture of Bunny which doesn't contribute to the story and might require further explanation might be dropped to simplify the story.
As for tactics, the bats can certainly have greater range and utility if the bats can have their eyes seen through, so it's a matter of priorities between juice use and the need for scouting the area just before an attack. So, I don't know if it is a real "waste of juice" so much as an additional, useful option to spend juice on in the most prominent conflict the side is a part of.

Rob is very deliberate about avoiding confusion and showing us the full picture, unless there is a plot reason to conceal something, which was clearly not the case in that scene. In just as many panels, we could have been told Bunny was involved.

As for the value of using Bunny, I just realized that I got my scenes mixed up because I only looked at the page quickly. I was thinking of the scene later where they send a Bat in to check if the hex is empty, but that page is actually the original attack. However, in this scene, there's even less odds of Bunny being involved. The attack was sudden and unexpected, so it seems unlikely Bunny would have been paying attention to that particular Bat without warning. Being part of Vinny's personal Colony though, it WOULD make sense for him to pay attention to it.

It was a bat that was scouting a hex that they assumed had dwagons in it, and they wanted to be sure and see how many dwagons there were. I think that is exactly the sort of information that a thinkamancer would be involved in helping secure, and know about in advance.
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby 0beron » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:59 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:It was a bat that was scouting a hex that they assumed had dwagons in it, and they wanted to be sure and see how many dwagons there were. I think that is exactly the sort of information that a thinkamancer would be involved in helping secure, and know about in advance.
No, you're making the exact same mistake I was. Vinny sees through a Bat's eyes when it gets ambushed. A few pages LATER is when they send in a Bat to check for Dwagons, at which point Vinny is actually not shown to be looking through it, he merely says "yeah, lost it".
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Re: ...so what about decrypted bats?

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:06 pm

Ah, I thought you were talking about the dwagon hex as opposed to the empty middle hex. Forgot about the one during the ambush.

That said, he clearly was looking through the bat's eyes when it was scouting the fortress hexes. This is hinted at in the way he has one eye closed (presumably the eye he is using to see through the bat with), and more directly shown in that he somehow knew how many dwagons, of what kind, and how injured (or not in this case) were in the hex.

As I said though, it is stated flat out in the comic that the bats can be seen through at a limited distance, but with Bunny it can be boosted to an infinite amount. The only real mystery is if that is a bat thing, a scout thing, or a bat/TV only thing.
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