Summer Updates - 041

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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Whispri » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:55 am

ftl wrote:
Whispri wrote:And in how many of those books would the reluctantly crowned one's subjects literally keel over and die if the ruler perished, hmm? I'm guessing not many...


Exactly. The sorts of units that would just keel over and die if the ruler perished aren't the sorts of units anybody cares about - they're an extension of the ruler's will if anything, but certainly not real people to be worried about.

Now, Parson may disagree with that, but that's a lot more accurate of a representation of Erfworld morality than actually treating units as if they matter. No, Jillian isn't being any more or less irresponsible than any reluctant ruler. (Heck, from her point of view, the worst thing about being croaked isn't what happens to her kingdom - she never wanted that kingdom anyway - it's the fact that she won't be able to get back at Stanley!)

That's just not true. Stanley doesn't treat his subjects like that. He knows better than to risk thousands of lives on a joy ride. The Kings of Jetstone and Translyvyto both have heirs to ensure their sides will survive their ends. And speaking of heirs, back when Ansom was misguided he became very upset when he lost thousands of men in the tunnel fighting. Maybe these people are paladins in hell, but I'm really not getting that vibe. Ansom for example, was so evil that he'd have used the Arkenpliers as a torture device.

Jillian is worse than all of them.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby moose o death » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:41 am

Tabletop wrote:
I was thinking along these lines. The Arkenpliers already showed that it had something to do with uncroaked


no they don't, they showed a level 10 royal-heir-chief warlord-artifact bonus is capable of killing hastily uncroaked units easily.

like so
Image

read the text carefully and you'll see the qualifier. if someone asks you why your acrrying around a tool like that when it isn't attuned. your answer will be the most positive you can come up with. ansom is fighting a side whose primary tactic is uncroaking fallen units to quickly replenish their numbers. so being very useful at killing them is his most positive function to put forward.

as you can see they are not just effective against uncroaked. unfortunately i couldn't find good CLEAR images of strong uncroaked units. that warlord clearly didn't die instantly, and the unipegataur image i haven't used implies that unit didn't die until the archons disntegrated it. however the image res was too small to see if that was indeed what had happened. the unipegataur wasn't dead but i'm not sure what the arkenpliers hit either. could have been wanda. but that seems unlikely given jack's combat stats of 2
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Kaminobob » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:40 am

Whispri wrote:That's just not true. Stanley doesn't treat his subjects like that. He knows better than to risk thousands of lives on a joy ride. The Kings of Jetstone and Translyvyto both have heirs to ensure their sides will survive their ends. And speaking of heirs, back when Ansom was misguided he became very upset when he lost thousands of men in the tunnel fighting. Maybe these people are paladins in hell, but I'm really not getting that vibe. Ansom for example, was so evil that he'd have used the Arkenpliers as a torture device.

Jillian is worse than all of them.


I'm not sure exactly why you're so stubbornly, righteously indignant on this ' i hate Jillian' point, but it's starting get old. You have your opinion, which seems to be in the minority. Shiny Joy.

Anyway, to feed the troll, i'd like to know what you call The Tool's taking his three knight and skedaddle-ing off into the sunset. To me, intentionally abandoning your entire side (with no heir) because you have ego issues rates a leetle biiit lower on ye olde morality scale than leaving behind a bunch of people who remind you of everything you've lost to putter about in the middle of nowhere for a few minutes.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Tyris » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:52 am

Um, except we never saw the hammer or the pliers leading armies on their own. Or doing anything on their own. They are instruments of fate, but it dosn't mean they actually talk to people, or lead armies.

So?
We never saw the Arkenhammer annihilate uncroaked or raise entire armies of decrypted.
We never saw the Arkenplier tame Dwagons, allow its user to "Rock Out", function as a hand-held energy projection weapon, or turn birds into walnuts or walnuts into birds.

We've never seen the Arkendish do either of these, nor have we seen the other tools amplify Thinkamancy in any practical way.
Technically, even if the Dish is sapient, it's not LEADING armries, merely commanding them. And it may not even be armies, per say, but the specific units which it provides. Those who support the Sapient Arkendish theory could simply point out that as Charlie has been shown to employ NO other unit, and both Arkentools seen so far focus on a special unit, the special unit of the Dish could be Archons which the dish itself could control.

Neah, I think that basically every other theory ever proposed makes more sense, including the "Charley is a giant tuna" theory.

*shrug* If that makes you feel better. You'd have to offer up better examples, though.

Ok, but that dosn't actually explain anything ELSE Charley did. And if you think Charley's main goal in book 1 was to befriend Parson, then most of his actions don't make sense; like, for example, when he backstabbed Parson for money.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. If Charlesdish wanted to 'acquire' Parson, the best way to go around it would be to deny him resources. The more 'resources' Parson has, the more things he can do, the more he can experiment, the more tricks he can pull off, and the more FUN he can have. Destroy his units, remove his resources, restrict his options down to 'nothing', and he can then choose to either lose (and not have fun), or join one of the most interesting sides in the game with an apparent 'friend' who's almost as clever as he is, with access to special units with a pile of equally special abilities.
Not a tough choice for me. Parson also chose to give him the finger rather than hop on over... but then again, he also did it because he always had a few options in mind that nobody else knew about... and a code of 'gamers honor' that prevented him from giving up when he was the underdog.

But that usually seems to work by "The previous holder suddenly dies while standing in front of Parson, due to coincidence", not the dish raising armies of angels to do...stuff, or whatever.

Stanley FOUND the hammer. Wanda fought and KILLED to acquire the pliers, and failed, but it was parson's ploy that managed to croak Ansom and thus leave the pliers. Other units even tried to acquire them (that Red-liveried woman) but were annihilated by the eruption of the uncroaked volcano. The wileder didn't "suddenly die while standing in front of Parson." In fact, we VISIBLY see this is not the case, as a well-armed Ansom taunted her with the pliers and she PLEADED merely to be touched with them. If you're going to give an example of how things work, try not to have it this obviously wrong.

Again, each item has a special unit type to call its own. It's fairly safe to say the Dish summons/pops Archons. In fact, it being derived from and inspired by a REAL WORLD meme pretty much ensures that Archons are its specialty unit.

What amuses me is Parson's role in this. I don't think he's the correct one to attune to the Dish. I don't think he's going to attune to any Arkentool. I think, however, that the Arkentools are gathering because of Parson, whether because of his influence, or a twist in the Fate magic that is their programming that was triggered by his arrival. I don't think the "War of the Arkentool" we saw mentioned earlier is going to be the last reference of it. If anything, it may be part of the focus of the next book, as more of them get involved. But this has been rehashed before.


---


All of them.

I've played countless text-based MUDs, as well as Asheron's Call, Everquest, Vendetta Online, EVE, A Tale in the Desert, Star Wars Online, and World of Warcraft... ...and every single one had players matching the type that Tyris has described.

From hard-core full-time PvP games (AC's Darktide) to games where there is no combat of any kind at all, not even against NPCs (A Tale in the Desert), there are *always* "play-the-players-not-the-game" folks to be found.


Thanks for explaining that for me, Spot. ^_^ Actually I regret saying this, as I was too specific. Remove "massive" and the statement becomes like this:

Charlie is one of those gamers who, in multiplayer situations, gets his power and jollies from manipulating the other players. His whole strategy isn't to play the game to beat the player, it's to play the PLAYER to beat the game.

Technically, such a style of player can exist in any game with more than 1 player, and it doesn't even have to be an online or wargame. Everything from Poker (where it's pretty much the exact point) to Monopoly to First Person Shooters to Strategy games to Sports games to Fighting games (especially, once everyone's learned the mechanics) even to board games and CCG's.

I assume most people thought of 'combat' in what I said earlier, but that wasn't my intent, as many such games don't involve direct conflict and destruction, and it can be applied to anything. Monetary warfare in a game, acquisition of special goods (rare loot in MMO's, for instance), prestige, etc can all have this sort of player who prefers to manipulate other players than to excel at purely game mechanics. Most people realize that this sort of play is necessary at some level to win (compare, oh, the original Survivor to its sequels and spinoffs, or how that kid at the arcade who's always there doesn't even look at the screen but instead watches your HANDS while he kills you), but there is a certain kind of player that actually PREFERS this to the game itself. The game is just the way they can go about bending others into a funny shape for their own amusement.

The more players there are, the exponentially greater the chances of such a player or player(s) existing in it increase. That's why you see them more in massively multiplayer situations than not, simply because there are more people. Well, that, and if you don't like that sort of person, you're not going to invite them over to play Magic: The Gathering or Street Fighter 4 any time soon. But if you log onto, say, World of Warcraft or Eve Online, there's pretty much no way to avoid them.
As well, more players serve as more 'resources' for such a player to exploit. Pulling it once or twice every now and then on the same person is boring, but getting hundreds, thousands, or even millions of other 'resources' to exploit (MMO's and game tournaments), well, that's a lot more useful and a lot more 'fun'.

---

In any event, because of Charlie's nature as such a player, and his apparently enjoyment of it, he's built up a series of rules to make it easier and make himself more predictable to others--to set limits and build a sort of 'trust' as to what he can do. Unfortunately, that's what limits him. He's so into that mindset, and so into following his own rules, that he's been pigeonholed into his role as 'ruthless mercenary who now can't be trusted'.

If he were REALLY intent on proving those other units weren't his, he'd offer the major RCC members some sort of free work... such as attaching an archon or two to any army with three times greater than its strength (so that it couldn't turn on them and destroy it) as an ally and/or scout, or provide free location information to the Uberstack that Wanda is currently using to rampage the surrounding kingdoms. Something, ANYTHING, that would show his goodwill and provde definitively that he's not the one to blame for the enemy Archons. And if his Archon-supported army gets wiped out by one that DOES have uncroaked Archons, it would be proof that what he says is true. He has ways other than direct Thinkagrams to the other leaders, he's just not using them or hasn't though to do so because it isn't his style.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby raphfrk » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:13 pm

Tyris wrote: Yeah, I mean, it's almost like the Arkentools WANT to be found by those who can attune to them. The hammer needed someone willing to use it in direct combat, so it fell to a warrior type who could put it to use. The Arkenpliers needed a Croakamancer, so they exhibited the ability to annihilate uncroaked... so that anyone who WASN'T a Croakamancer would think to use the untuned pliers to DEFEAT Croaks... thus, luring them closer to plier's ultimate goal.


Stanley said that Ansom was bringing the pliers to him. Maybe that was partially true and the pliers were influencing Ansom's mind. Also, apparently Jetstone didn't really have any reason to join/lead the RCC.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Yosarian » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:31 pm

Tyris wrote:
But that usually seems to work by "The previous holder suddenly dies while standing in front of Parson, due to coincidence", not the dish raising armies of angels to do...stuff, or whatever.

Stanley FOUND the hammer. Wanda fought and KILLED to acquire the pliers, and failed, but it was parson's ploy that managed to croak Ansom and thus leave the pliers. Other units even tried to acquire them (that Red-liveried woman) but were annihilated by the eruption of the uncroaked volcano. The wileder didn't "suddenly die while standing in front of Parson." In fact, we VISIBLY see this is not the case, as a well-armed Ansom taunted her with the pliers and she PLEADED merely to be touched with them. If you're going to give an example of how things work, try not to have it this obviously wrong.


Well, of course that wasn't an EXAMPLE of what had happened before, obviously. It was a general description of how Fate Magic works; if something is Fated to happen, then some series of seemingly unrelated events will take place to make it happen. The pliers didn't suddenly get up and walk over to Wanda themselves, a series of events happened that ended up with Wanda holding the pliers.

The whole theory that the dish somehow raised an army and a side on it's own without human intervention to try to get to Parson is silly, because that's not how fate magic works.

Again, each item has a special unit type to call its own. It's fairly safe to say the Dish summons/pops Archons.


I don't really think that's a safe assumption at all, but we'll see.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Emaria » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:19 pm

oh boy has this update been thoroughlhy talked out or what? I think we need a new one :D
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Guurzak » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:49 pm

Yosarian wrote:
Again, each item has a special unit type to call its own. It's fairly safe to say the Dish summons/pops Archons.


I don't really think that's a safe assumption at all, but we'll see.


That seems pretty straightforward. The arkenhammer tames dwagons. Dwagons do not appear in any other side's forces, and are Titanic in history and scale. (There's a dwagon in the background where the Elvis Titans are working on building Erfworld.) The pliers do decryption, which nobody else even knows what it is. Archons have only been seen in Charlie's forces until a few showed up in GK livery.

Would I call it a certainty? No, there are other possible but less likely explanations. But I'd certainly put a few shmuckers on it if anyone were taking bets.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Unclever title » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:55 pm

Yosarian wrote:
Tyris wrote:
But that usually seems to work by "The previous holder suddenly dies while standing in front of Parson, due to coincidence", not the dish raising armies of angels to do...stuff, or whatever.
Stanley FOUND the hammer. Wanda fought and KILLED to acquire the pliers, and failed, but it was parson's ploy that managed to croak Ansom and thus leave the pliers. Other units even tried to acquire them (that Red-liveried woman) but were annihilated by the eruption of the uncroaked volcano. The wileder didn't "suddenly die while standing in front of Parson." In fact, we VISIBLY see this is not the case, as a well-armed Ansom taunted her with the pliers and she PLEADED merely to be touched with them. If you're going to give an example of how things work, try not to have it this obviously wrong.
Well, of course that wasn't an EXAMPLE of what had happened before, obviously. It was a general description of how Fate Magic works; if something is Fated to happen, then some series of seemingly unrelated events will take place to make it happen. The pliers didn't suddenly get up and walk over to Wanda themselves, a series of events happened that ended up with Wanda holding the pliers.

The whole theory that the dish somehow raised an army and a side on it's own without human intervention to try to get to Parson is silly, because that's not how fate magic works.

So... if something occurs due to a seemingly random chain of events then it's because of Fate magic, but if it occurs in a reasonable fashion it's not?

Doesn't "fate" imply that there is a being pulling the strings, A Titan or Titans in this case?
Is not the Arkendish a tool of the Titans?
Then if it were indeed sentient and likely seeking to follow it's creators' will, wouldn't its actions be akin to fate magic by default?

Basically my argument here is that the Arkentools lie closer to the other side of Fate (controlling, dictating, affecting) than the Erflings do (controlled, dictated, affected).
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby LordDarksea » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:07 pm

Unclever title wrote:Doesn't "fate" imply that there is a being pulling the strings, A Titan or Titans in this case?


Depends, could be that the Titans are having their strings pulled by an abstract / non-anthropomorphic (or at least non-sentient) Fate.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Unclever title » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:18 pm

LordDarksea wrote:
Unclever title wrote:Doesn't "fate" imply that there is a being pulling the strings, A Titan or Titans in this case?


Depends, could be that the Titans are having their strings pulled by an abstract / non-anthropomorphic (or at least non-sentient) Fate.
That does bring up a good point.

To the ancient Greeks even the gods obeyed Fate.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Infidel » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:53 pm

I've played countless text-based MUDs, as well as Asheron's Call, Everquest, Vendetta Online, EVE, A Tale in the Desert, Star Wars Online, and World of Warcraft... ...and every single one had players matching the type that Tyris has described.

From hard-core full-time PvP games (AC's Darktide) to games where there is no combat of any kind at all, not even against NPCs (A Tale in the Desert), there are *always* "play-the-players-not-the-game" folks to be found.


Not true. Everquest, vendetta, Asherons call, muds. If someone somehow gains access to your guild bank account and cleans it out, you can cry for a GM and they will reset things. In other games, of someone gains high rank in your guild and disbands your guild, you can petition it. If someone scams you offering some uber weapon and then gives you a tin sword, you can petition it. If someone offers membership in a guild if the player pays some sum of game gold, then after paying is refused admittance and called a bunch of names. You can petition it.

Sorry, EVE is the only game I know where you, the player, truly are on your own. You petition these things in EVE and you'll get a reply, "Sorry, none of these actions violate the EULA. so the incident stands."
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby moose o death » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:59 pm

yeah eve is completely run by players. it's the only mmo i'd join. but i have better things to do, so no time for mmo's. it's the only mmo i've tried twice though.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Yosarian » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:09 pm

Guurzak wrote:
That seems pretty straightforward. The arkenhammer tames dwagons.


Yup. The arkenhammer tames dwagons, and dwagons can be popped on Gobwin Knob as well.

We don't know if Dwagons can be popped anywhere, or if it's only something that can be popped in that city, or that it's only something that can be popped by that SIDE, or if it's only something that can be popped by someone with the arkenhammer.

I suspect that some units can only be popped by a certan side, but can be popped by any city that side controls; like, any city controled by the Transylvitos can probably pop bats.

Dwagons do not appear in any other side's forces,


As far as we've seen. Of course, I wouldn't expect anyone to send Dwagons to war AGAINST someone wielding the arkenhammer in any case, so that's inconclusive.

The pliers do decryption, which nobody else even knows what it is.


Very true.

Archons have only been seen in Charlie's forces


(nods) True. Of course, Doombats have only been seen in Transylvitos forces, and that has nothing to do with any arkentool; they seem to just be something Translvito can pop because of, well, who they are, becuase of the flavor of their side. My guess is that Charlie can pop Archons because of the flavor of his side in the same way, no matter if he has the arkendish or not; they're pretty clearly linked to Charlie in flavor, after all.

Perhaps the arkendish could help in recruiting/taming neutral or wild Archons, if there is any such thing. Perhaps not.

Would I call it a certainty? No, there are other possible but less likely explanations. But I'd certainly put a few shmuckers on it if anyone were taking bets.


So, if Charlie were to somehow lose the Arkendish, you don't think Charlie would be able to have Archons working for him anymore, or be able to get more?

I'd bet a few shmuckers against that. ;)
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Pax » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:03 pm

Guurzak wrote: Archons have only been seen in Charlie's forces until a few showed up in GK livery.

Have we seen anyoen but Transylvito use Bats? Everyone else seems to use ORLY's.

Have we seen anyone besides FAQ use MegaGwiffons? Last I checked, Jillian isn't swinging an attuned Arkentool around ...
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby DevilDan » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:54 pm

The fact that dwagons pop in the wild is, to my mind, supportive of the theory that it isn't the arkenhammer that allows GK to pop dwagons. If this were true, this fact would have been brought up by now at least once by now. It's always"taming dwagons" that is mentioned.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Whispri » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:44 pm

If so, then perhaps it will soon be possible to pop Decrypted units.

moose o death wrote:as you can see they are not just effective against uncroaked. unfortunately i couldn't find good CLEAR images of strong uncroaked units. that warlord clearly didn't die instantly, and the unipegataur image i haven't used implies that unit didn't die until the archons disntegrated it. however the image res was too small to see if that was indeed what had happened. the unipegataur wasn't dead but i'm not sure what the arkenpliers hit either. could have been wanda. but that seems unlikely given jack's combat stats of 2

Wanda was part of a column in which no unit had a base attack lower than 6. I'm rather sure that Ansom didn't hit anything in that fight though, he just lost, same as he did against Bogroll. In fact as I recall, a lot of speculation regarding Wanda and the Arkenpliers sprung forth from that incident.

Kaminobob wrote:...i'd like to know what you call The Tool's taking his three knight and skedaddle-ing off into the sunset. To me, intentionally abandoning your entire side (with no heir) because you have ego issues rates a leetle biiit lower on ye olde morality scale than leaving behind a bunch of people who remind you of everything you've lost to putter about in the middle of nowhere for a few minutes.

It was retreat in the face of what he believed to be hopeless odds, his armies beaten, his Capital doomed. A potentially side ending joyride it was not.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby DevilDan » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:29 am

Whispri wrote:
Kaminobob wrote:...i'd like to know what you call The Tool's taking his three knight and skedaddle-ing off into the sunset. To me, intentionally abandoning your entire side (with no heir) because you have ego issues rates a leetle biiit lower on ye olde morality scale than leaving behind a bunch of people who remind you of everything you've lost to putter about in the middle of nowhere for a few minutes.

It was retreat in the face of what he believed to be hopeless odds, his armies beaten, his Capital doomed. A potentially side ending joyride it was not.


He wasn't wrong even then! If he hadn't tried to go to Faq, he could well have been croaked in GK, unless we're suggesting that he could have also used the portal.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Sixty » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:58 am

Infidel wrote:
I've played countless text-based MUDs, as well as Asheron's Call, Everquest, Vendetta Online, EVE, A Tale in the Desert, Star Wars Online, and World of Warcraft... ...and every single one had players matching the type that Tyris has described.

From hard-core full-time PvP games (AC's Darktide) to games where there is no combat of any kind at all, not even against NPCs (A Tale in the Desert), there are *always* "play-the-players-not-the-game" folks to be found.


Not true. Everquest, vendetta, Asherons call, muds. If someone somehow gains access to your guild bank account and cleans it out, you can cry for a GM and they will reset things. In other games, of someone gains high rank in your guild and disbands your guild, you can petition it. If someone scams you offering some uber weapon and then gives you a tin sword, you can petition it. If someone offers membership in a guild if the player pays some sum of game gold, then after paying is refused admittance and called a bunch of names. You can petition it.

Sorry, EVE is the only game I know where you, the player, truly are on your own. You petition these things in EVE and you'll get a reply, "Sorry, none of these actions violate the EULA. so the incident stands."


Sure those specific examples might not be allowed or have a GM undo them, but players still scam others. Those players scamming other players are still (or at least trying to) "playing the players" even if sometimes it doesn't work or is undone later by a game authority. And there are more minor examples where it might not be undone by a GM. Perhaps one of these players convinces another to help him get good loot in-game in exchange for later helping the other player get something and then doesn't show. I doubt the GMs fix something or give hand outs every time someone doesn't show up on time for a raid (as the "scammed" player would have no way of knowing whether the other player didn't show up for legitimate reasons or not).
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby DorianMode » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:28 pm

Decorus wrote:Charles' secrets are exposed, because of the Decrypted Archons.
Interesting Parson, Wanda and Stanley haven't figured out to debrief thier decrypted units for intelligence...
So that firmly places Charles in the Anti Stanley Coalition, but the actual members don't want Charles, because he is another non royal with an Arkentool and as such assumed to be on Stanley's side.


I thought I posted in this forum the other day, but if I did I can't find it; must've forgotten to hit post. Anyway, they do debrief them: decrypted Unaroyal troops provided intelligence on Warchalking and presumably cities since then. The only reason Gobwin Knob might not know everything about Charlie is the Archons probably don't know everything about him, just as his namesake's angels didn't know everything about his namesake (his face, for instance).

There was definitely a leak, though; enough to put pressure on Charlie, but maybe not enough for him to panic. He's been deliberately obfuscatory long enough that even if he appears to panic, you can't be certain it's not an act.
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