Book 2 - Page 4

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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Spot » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:14 pm

Oberon wrote:Once the rules are understood, they must remain. To have them change is to invoke Dieu Ex Machina, the fiddling with the very framework of the story by forces suddenly introduced. The RCC side could not dance fight. Parson knew this, he based his plan on it, and his casters who could see Archon abilities just by looking at them and are also completely familiar with the mechanics of Erf supported his plan. And then the DDR came. This is flawed writing.



There is a concept in fiction called "the unreliable narrator", and it is quite similar to a real-world concept that I like to call "conventional thinking". There is also a real-world concept called "surprise".

To use a real world example, a man named Guderian worked out an idea to use armored vehicles as a type of strike force. The country he worked for (Germany), decided to implement these plans, while the country that they planned on fighting (France) had a different concept of how armored vehicles should be used.

The French thought that armored vehicles should be used primarily as infantry-support vehicles, so they made huge, heavy, and powerful tanks (Char B1 bis) and then divided them up among all of the infantry units, so that each unit had a few of the armored vehicles.

Guderian's idea was to make light, maneuverable, and fast armored vehicles, and then to bunch them all together in armored vehicle groups, so that they could be used to smash through the enemy's front line, and charge into the rear areas.

Guderian didn't make any secret of his plans. His ideas on "lightning warfare" were published in book form years before they were ever used in a war, and the Germans didn't hide the fact that they were making small, light, and fast tanks... and the Germans didn't hide the fact that they *weren't* making any of the big heavy tanks like the French were making.

So, anyone who cared to read Guderian's book, and anyone who cared to look at what kind of tanks the Germans were driving around in parades, and anyone who cared to notice that Guderian had been promoted into the ranks of the German General Staff, could pretty much have read the writing on the wall, and known exactly what the Germans were going to do with their armored vehicles when a war came.

And yet... in the real world... every one was shocked, surprised, and horrified at how easily and quickly Poland fell, and was even more shocked and horrified when the Germans simply drove through the "impassable" Ardennes Forest, and completely sliced through the British and French forces in Northern France in a matter of weeks.

So... Oberon... do you think that the real world history of WW2 was "badly written", or could it be that your theory is flawed?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby DevilDan » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:29 pm

When Parson spoke of his players cheating him in a clever manner, he wasn't talking about them moving the pieces if he went to the bathroom, he was talking about the need to think unconventionally, to exploit some rule or mechanism, to do something radically differently. This is what Parson is doing on Erf every turn, analyzing the assumptions and conventional thinking. It's not about changing the rules, it's about really using them.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Spot » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:40 pm

DevilDan wrote:When Parson spoke of his players cheating him in a clever manner, he wasn't talking about them moving the pieces if he went to the bathroom, he was talking about the need to think unconventionally, to exploit some rule or mechanism, to do something radically differently. This is what Parson is doing on Erf every turn, analyzing the assumptions and conventional thinking. It's not about changing the rules, it's about really using them.


Exactly.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Trigger » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:50 pm

How about we all ignore one word in the comic and the technical correctness of some book 1 tactics and talk about things that don't involve arguing with each other.

Like who else thought that Jack looked like Kain (FF2) before he dispelled the veil?

Or wondering if when Ansom said for Casters to mount up it means Sizemore or other casters are there (Wanda is already mounted)
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Anca » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:56 pm

Trigger wrote:How about we all ignore one word in the comic and the technical correctness of some book 1 tactics and talk about things that don't involve arguing with each other.

Like who else thought that Jack looked like Kain (FF2) before he dispelled the veil?

Or wondering if when Ansom said for Casters to mount up it means Sizemore or other casters are there (Wanda is already mounted)

Sizemore and Maggie could be there; I can see why Maggie would be, though I'm not sure it'd be worth the risk, but Sizemore I don't see as much use for if the GK forces are aerial. I don't remember any references to new casters popping or to any being decrypted, but I wouldn't be surprised about either.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Menas » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:58 pm

Lamech wrote:Also I'm sure that Charlie doesn't the volcano to explode in his face. Again. With all 600 archons. I mean, how could that possibly end any worse.


As far as I know Wanda would still have to be present for this to happen. She's on the front line right now and there's no way she's going to be relayed through an airspace that is occupied by enemy troops.

Also, no-one on Stanley's side but Wanda and the decrypted would be in favor of making the volcano erupt again. Everyone would die except the casters. Parson has good reason to believe he won't make it out of the MK alive if he returns there.

Lastly, I'm not sure if there's even a volcano left to erupt? The terrain type was modified after the last eruption.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Pointyleaf » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:03 pm

Anca wrote:Sizemore and Maggie could be there; I can see why Maggie would be, though I'm not sure it'd be worth the risk, but Sizemore I don't see as much use for if the GK forces are aerial. I don't remember any references to new casters popping or to any being decrypted, but I wouldn't be surprised about either.


Maggie's in the war room. Does that imply Sizemore and/or someone(s) else, since Wanda is already mounted?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Spot » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:06 pm

Pointyleaf wrote:
Anca wrote:Sizemore and Maggie could be there; I can see why Maggie would be, though I'm not sure it'd be worth the risk, but Sizemore I don't see as much use for if the GK forces are aerial. I don't remember any references to new casters popping or to any being decrypted, but I wouldn't be surprised about either.


Maggie's in the war room. Does that imply Sizemore and/or someone(s) else, since Wanda is already mounted?



Maybe... or maybe the word 'casters' was used by force of habit.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Menas » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:13 pm

Spot wrote:
Pointyleaf wrote:
Anca wrote:Sizemore and Maggie could be there; I can see why Maggie would be, though I'm not sure it'd be worth the risk, but Sizemore I don't see as much use for if the GK forces are aerial. I don't remember any references to new casters popping or to any being decrypted, but I wouldn't be surprised about either.


Maggie's in the war room. Does that imply Sizemore and/or someone(s) else, since Wanda is already mounted?



Maybe... or maybe the word 'casters' was used by force of habit.


There could be some decrypted or newly hired casters we haven't known about thus far. Or maybe he was pushing his luck and addressing Wanda along with Jack....
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby GobwinPie » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:19 pm

Trigger wrote:Or wondering if when Ansom said for Casters to mount up it means Sizemore or other casters are there (Wanda is already mounted)


People are overthinking things here. Which is the more natural language construction when dealing with a group of 4 guys and 1 girl? "Guys and girls" or "Guys and girl?" How about 1 guy and 4 girls? "Guy and girls" or "guys and girls?"

The use of a plural doesn't mean anything here really except that he's addressing a heterogeneous group and doesn't feel a need to give Jack the "...and Zoidberg too!" treatment.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Menas » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:22 pm

GobwinPie wrote:
Trigger wrote:Or wondering if when Ansom said for Casters to mount up it means Sizemore or other casters are there (Wanda is already mounted)


People are overthinking things here. Which is the more natural language construction when dealing with a group of 4 guys and 1 girl? "Guys and girls" or "Guys and girl?" How about 1 guy and 4 girls? "Guy and girls" or "guys and girls?"

The use of a plural doesn't mean anything here really except that he's addressing a heterogeneous group and doesn't feel a need to give Jack the "...and Zoidberg too!" treatment.


I don't know. Ansom seems the type to be anal enough not to use a plural unless there's really a plural.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Pointyleaf » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:35 pm

Menas wrote:I don't know. Ansom seems the type to be anal enough not to use a plural unless there's really a plural.


Yay! Something else to argue about. :lol:
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby GobwinPie » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:37 pm

Menas wrote:I don't know. Ansom seems the type to be anal enough not to use a plural unless there's really a plural.


Which is more likely? That Ansom is just speaking naturally here or that he's so anal that this must imply either that Sizemore is to mount up for an air battle or that GK has new caster units (i.e. important characters) that we just haven't been introduced to?

I don't really read his character as being that kind of uptight.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:37 pm

Pointyleaf wrote:Yay! Something else to argue about. :lol:


Jesus Christ where is that new comic page already?!

I'm gonna freeze myself. Thaw me when it's done.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Menas » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:39 pm

GobwinPie wrote:
Menas wrote:I don't know. Ansom seems the type to be anal enough not to use a plural unless there's really a plural.


Which is more likely? That Ansom is just speaking naturally here or that he's so anal that this must imply either that Sizemore is to mount up for an air battle or that GK has new caster units (i.e. important characters) that we just haven't been introduced to?

I don't really read his character as being that kind of uptight.


It'll be interesting to find out. I've always read Ansom as being as over the top uptight as it gets.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Menas » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:40 pm

Pointyleaf wrote:
Menas wrote:I don't know. Ansom seems the type to be anal enough not to use a plural unless there's really a plural.


Yay! Something else to argue about. :lol:


LOL @ Pointyleaf. Time to go into lurk mode until the next update ;) .
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Lamech » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:53 pm

As far as I know Wanda would still have to be present for this to happen. She's on the front line right now and there's no way she's going to be relayed through an airspace that is occupied by enemy troops.

Also, no-one on Stanley's side but Wanda and the decrypted would be in favor of making the volcano erupt again. Everyone would die except the casters. Parson has good reason to believe he won't make it out of the MK alive if he returns there.

Lastly, I'm not sure if there's even a volcano left to erupt? The terrain type was modified after the last eruption.
If they knew the attack was coming this would be a perfectly valid threat. Maybe. But they wouldn't see it coming because GK doesn't have a predictamancer. But Charlie doesn't know that. FAQ had a predictamancer and at least two of GK's casters are from FAQ.

Worse Charlie would have to withdraw units from all over the planet. It would be caught a mile away. Hire a few casters to find safe places for everyone and boom! another volcano pops. Now Stanley would never let all those archons get decrypted. "Hey Maggie make sure Wanda is out for a turn or two." But Charlie doesn't know that. As far as Charlie knows this might very well get him killed. Probably not but the risk is there.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Firkraag » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:54 pm

Seriously, the length of time between updates is too long, if it gives everyone time to argue over what characters mean by exact words like "that hex" or "casters"...

These three gold pieces say that the writer was simply not thinking too hard when he wrote the "casters, mount up!" line - and besides, it just sounds cooler that way (compare to: "Jack, will you mount up already, what are you waiting for?")
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Yosarian » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:56 pm

Besides what Spot said, there's also the fact that Parson quite clearly said "ALMOST no one on the coalition's side can dance fight."

It seems that Ansom was the only one who could. And Parson wasn't worried about Ansom coming in, because he was planning on digging up from underneath and killing any commanders who came in. What he wasn't expecting was Ansom being able to direct dance fighting from the air, although he probably should have realized that since he knew about the flying carpet, and he also probably didn't know about the archons ability to lead a dance fight.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Angband » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:17 pm

"Casters" could imply Wanda + Jack, or Sizemore could be there as well.

For those pedantic enough to question whether Ansom could issue orders to Wanda, please consider Summer Update 33 (ellipsis in original, my bold)

And when Ansom, Chief Warlord of Gobwin Knob and a Decrypted unit himself, led a stack of six Decrypted heavies and knights with Wanda Firebaugh, Chief Croakamancer and attuned wielder of the Arkenpliers...


If Ansom's leading the stack, he issues orders to the members of the stack. Whether he can issue an order to Wanda that Wanda doesn't want him to issue is a different argument entirely, but in this case, Ansom saying "casters" when Jack and Wanda are present is completely natural.

And we also don't know if Sizemore is there or not. Even if he doesn't have any golems with him, remember that Sizemore can tunnel through solid rock with his magic -- there's a lot of ways that he could be tremendously useful during a castle assault.
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