Book 2 - Page 4

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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Tiger » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:07 am

MarbitChow wrote:
Sixty wrote:
Xewleer wrote:I would say: Bonus of five, suddenly, it turns into TEN.
But the Doubling surviving units stumps me a little. To take things literally: I've got five surviving units, oh hey! I've got TEN now! (end of turn, of course).


It might double the stack bonus associated with surviving units. Like you have a stack of 8 pikers, 4 croak so the remaining 4 would normally have a smaller stack bonus but the dittomancer doubles the bonus to as if there were 8 units in the stack?


Well, since we're speculating, I'll throw in my two cents...
Ansom mentions "maximum stacks of top heavies", so I'm guessing that there is a hard limit of units who can engage. Once one of them dies, the Dittomancer can replace them to push the number back to the max during the same turn.
(If it's the attacker's turn, I would assume that you would keep replacements in an adjacent hex and move them in to replace the fallen.)

I assumed that Ansom was referring to the total number of troops Jetstone is capable of bringing to bear. He would know the exact number up to ~60 turns ago and be able to guesstimate how much they've lost/gained since.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Angband » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:09 am

You know, looking closely at Spacerock in the background of Panel 10, it seems extremely familiar. I thought at first that it was Minas Tirith from the Lord of the Rings movie, but I couldn't find a reference photo that matched.

Anyone else able to place it? The large cathedral-looking building in the middle with flying buttresses, and the city wall with the round guard towers, seem quite deliberate.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Tiger » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:39 am

Something I just noticed - what's with the patch of light on Ansom's face in panels 1,2,3,5 and 7? It doesn't appear in other panels where his face is shaded, so I'm rather curious.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Pointyleaf » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:53 am

Tiger wrote:Something I just noticed - what's with the patch of light on Ansom's face in panels 1,2,3,5 and 7? It doesn't appear in other panels where his face is shaded, so I'm rather curious.


I'd guess it'd have to do with the way the light is falling across his face, depending on the angle of the sun and whether his face is lifted up or tilted down.

Pleeeease, next comic come soon.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:54 am

Tiger wrote:Something I just noticed - what's with the patch of light on Ansom's face in panels 1,2,3,5 and 7? It doesn't appear in other panels where his face is shaded, so I'm rather curious.


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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Oberon » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:01 am

Pointyleaf wrote:
Oberon wrote:I'll try again. Football fields, they are the hexes. Ossomer and Tram are standing in one, at the edge of the one Ansom is standing in. Where are the casters? Ansom points over Ossomer's shoulder and says "This field?" Very odd.


That is odd. I'd have said "That field?" and pointed to the one behind them. But hexes are even bigger than football fields.
You've missed the point entirely. The hex being referenced, according to those who support the "casters are in the same hex as the Jetstone Princes" theory, isn't "the one behind them", it's the one they are standing in.

Pointyleaf wrote:You're standing at the edge of a town, talking to the enemy leader. He says they have heavily fortified machine gun positions in the town, so you can't take it. You laugh, and say "That town?" as you call in the airstrikes.
A poor analogy. A hex isn't the same thing as a town that you can be distant from. If you're in a hex, you're in a hex. There are no different areas in a hex with the sole (to date) exception of cities. This isn't a city fight, yet. You don't refer to a homogeneous area by pointing off in the distance when it is right in front of you. That would be very odd.

Pointyleaf wrote:Y'know, I'm looking forward to you being proven wrong.
I hope I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'd have to conclude that this is a second instance of rather poor writing, as the context simply would not have matched the text.

TiMothra wrote:It says that commanders can see unit stats, but I don't know that it's necessarily that they can see non-allied units' stats.
When Wanda looked at the newly decrypted Ansom and declared him to be "level 10, as he was before" it was made clear that enemy unit stats were indeed visible. There is wiggle room left to argue that only some stats are visible, but this hasn't been even hinted at, and were there any such limitation I would have expected it to have been a factor long before now.

Sixty wrote:
Oberon wrote:Where all of the Jetstone forces in a single hex, the this hex/that hex would make even less sense. Anson had just been told that the casters were deployed to Ossomer's command. If the Jetstone army is in a single hex, it makes zero sense for Ansom to try to discover which hex they are in. It would make no sense at all for him to say "What, all the casters? To that hex?" if the Jetstone army is only occupying a single hex. None at all.


He was trying to discover whether they were in the city of Spacerock or out in the field defending the bridge with the hex of Jetstone troops. If they were in the city then he could take the bridge hex, if they were at the bridge he could attack the city more easily. If they were split up more evenly I guess he'd have to make a judgment call there.
Please. Ossimer had just declared that the casters had been deployed to his command. Deployed has a meaning, look it up. Hint: Deployed does not mean left unmoved and back in the capital city. There is no ambiguity here other than that you are attempting to apply. As soon as Ossimer claimed that the casters were deployed, that meant that they were with the army Ossimer lead. And given that, if that army was only in a single hex, there was zero reason for Ansom to try to determine which hex of army the casters were within.

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Oberon wrote:Awww, did I hurt your hero? Grow up.


He's right. You ARE being rude. I really don't think you'd be acting this way in person.
I certainly would. I have a position. I've supported it with a rationally laid out point of view supported by the framework of the setting. Dark Arbiter replies with what is essentially a "Waa! You've hurt my feeling by saying mean things about my hero!" Were we having this discussion face to face I would laugh out loud and then describe to him exactly how feeble his hero worship makes his point look. You can't possibly be right if you're saying my hero Rob is wrong or has made a mistake, is this your point? Because if it is, you also need to grow up.

Spot wrote:So... Oberon... do you think that the real world history of WW2 was "badly written", or could it be that your theory is flawed?
A nice strawman. But, no. Let me try an example within the framework of the strip. The breaking of the spell on Jillian was one of the many reversals the GK forces endured. Was it stated categorically that the spell on Jillian could not and would not be broken? No, it was not. Instead, Wanda felt that it was unbreakable, even though she allowed that it had limitations on shaping the behavior of the victim. Sizemore thought otherwise, and said so. He had been positioned within the story as a caster with a curiosity about the other fields of magic, even if he wasn't terribly good at the practical applications. A theorist, if you will. And he theorized that Jillian could indeed break out of Wanda's spell. As it turned out, Wanda was wrong, Sizemore was right. But we the readers had a reason to believe that this was the right and proper resolution. Had Sizemore never spoken of his doubts, we'd be in the exact same position as the DDR: A fact explained (Wanda's expectation that Jillian could not break the spell), and then thrown away without notice.

This is poor writing. You don't have to agree with me. I could care less. But I calls them as I see them, and this was poor writing.

DevilDan wrote:When Parson spoke of his players cheating him in a clever manner, he wasn't talking about them moving the pieces if he went to the bathroom, he was talking about the need to think unconventionally, to exploit some rule or mechanism, to do something radically differently. This is what Parson is doing on Erf every turn, analyzing the assumptions and conventional thinking. It's not about changing the rules, it's about really using them.
I agree with this statement.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:25 am

Oberon wrote:You can't possibly be right if you're saying my hero Rob is wrong or has made a mistake, is this your point? Because if it is, you also need to grow up.


Nope, not saying that at all. I'm saying most normal people, when engaging in civilized discourse, do not tell their counterparties to "grow up," for example. Doing so is generally a sign of immaturity or poor manners, and again, I really doubt you'd do it in person because in real life, you don't have anonymity and the distance of a keyboard to protect you from the consequences, whether those are as basic as hurt feelings, ridicule and shunning, or as extreme as a punch in the face... which I certainly do not condone, but which nevertheless tends to be an unspoken, moderating factor in face-to-face discussion.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby ftl » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:57 am

Oberon wrote:You've missed the point entirely. The hex being referenced, according to those who support the "casters are in the same hex as the Jetstone Princes" theory, isn't "the one behind them", it's the one they are standing in.


Yes. It is the one they are standing in, and it's also behind them, because they're on the edge of it, with their backs to it.

A poor analogy. A hex isn't the same thing as a town that you can be distant from. If you're in a hex, you're in a hex. There are no different areas in a hex with the sole (to date) exception of cities.


No, there aren't different areas in a hex. However, hexes are not points - it's possible to move around within a hex. For example, the princes were at the very edge of one, with most of the hex behind them.

This isn't a city fight, yet. You don't refer to a homogeneous area by pointing off in the distance when it is right in front of you.


The area "right in front" of Ansom is actually still his own hex. The one behind his brothers is a different one.

If I'm standing outside of a town, and somebody else is standing at the edge of a town, when I point at them I'll say "your town" or "that town", not "this town" (since I'm not in it.)

If I'm wrong, I'd have to conclude that this is a second instance of rather poor writing, as the context simply would not have matched the text.


Nah, the context matches the text quite well - you simply have trouble grasping it for some reason. Are you from somewhere other than the USA? That might explain it, because otherwise I'm quite at a loss as to why you would think referring to "that hex" would be a strange way for Ansom to refer to the hex that his brothers are standing in.

When Wanda looked at the newly decrypted Ansom and declared him to be "level 10, as he was before" it was made clear that enemy unit stats were indeed visible.


No, it meant Wanda knew he was level 10 before. Such as from her long interrogation session recently, for example. Or through other means. (They did, until recently, also have a lookamancer.)

A nice strawman. But, no. Let me try an example within the framework of the strip. The breaking of the spell on Jillian was one of the many reversals the GK forces endured. Was it stated categorically that the spell on Jillian could not and would not be broken? No, it was not. Instead, Wanda felt that it was unbreakable, even though she allowed that it had limitations on shaping the behavior of the victim. Sizemore thought otherwise, and said so. He had been positioned within the story as a caster with a curiosity about the other fields of magic, even if he wasn't terribly good at the practical applications. A theorist, if you will. And he theorized that Jillian could indeed break out of Wanda's spell. As it turned out, Wanda was wrong, Sizemore was right. But we the readers had a reason to believe that this was the right and proper resolution. Had Sizemore never spoken of his doubts, we'd be in the exact same position as the DDR: A fact explained (Wanda's expectation that Jillian could not break the spell), and then thrown away without notice.

This is poor writing. You don't have to agree with me. I could care less. But I calls them as I see them, and this was poor writing.


And in this case, I think you're seeing it wrong. There WASN'T anybody in Parson's army who would play Sizemore's role - someone who is knowledgeable about warfare but isn't the one putting forth the plan. So it went unfilled, and Parson didn't have anyone to suggest to him a way in which he might have been wrong. That just meant that how it went wrong was more of a surprise, not that it was any less plausible for him to be wrong about that case. Parson certainly wasn't that knowledgeable about Erfworld at the time - yeah, he looked up that most of the RCC's coalition can't dance-fight, but he didn't know that the right combination of archons could grant that ability from afar, which makes sense given how Charlie's been this big mystery, Parson is still new at this, and the trick is pretty clever anyway.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Infidel » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:06 am

A poor analogy. A hex isn't the same thing as a town that you can be distant from. If you're in a hex, you're in a hex. There are no different areas in a hex with the sole (to date) exception of cities.


Sure there are different areas within a hex. If there were not then there would be no battlespace.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby DevilDan » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:12 pm

Infidel wrote:
A poor analogy. A hex isn't the same thing as a town that you can be distant from. If you're in a hex, you're in a hex. There are no different areas in a hex with the sole (to date) exception of cities.


Sure there are different areas within a hex. If there were not then there would be no battlespace.

As far as we've seen, "battlespace" applies to multi-hex areas. Or are we talking about different things?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Infidel » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:29 pm

The very fact that a unit moves within a hex means that a hex has numerous sub-points. If "your in a hex, then you're in a hex." there would be no sub-movement. All points would be the same, because there would be only one point within a hex. Thus, you'd always be occupying the same space as every other unit within the hex, and there would be no need or effect of maneuver, because there is no where to maneuver.

This is clearly not, and never has been the case. From page one we have seen the importance of maneuver to battle, that there is more to battle that two icons simply occupying the same space and a bunch of die rolls to determine the winner.

Spoiler: show
In the next comic, even though Tramenis is in the same hex--he can't cross hex boarders on another faction's turn--he and his brother are racing to rejoin the army. There would be no point of running if hexes were not further subdivided, because simply being in the same hex would be enough to be in mutual support range.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby DevilDan » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:55 pm

Infidel, "hex subdivisions" are probably not a helpful way of thinking about this. I'm not sure I even understand why that distinction/concept if of any use. Movement isn't, as far as we know, dictated, curtailed, or measured by grids or other demarcations within hexes. We know, for example, that units can move as much as they want inside a hex without getting tired.

We know that there's real-time combat (as "real" as it can get given time-relativity on Erf) possible in each hex. The warlords could be moving to their mounts, could be getting their weapons, etc.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Infidel » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:23 pm

DevilDan wrote:Infidel, "hex subdivisions" are probably not a helpful way of thinking about this. I'm not sure I even understand why that distinction/concept if of any use. Movement isn't, as far as we know, dictated, curtailed, or measured by grids or other demarcations within hexes. We know, for example, that units can move as much as they want inside a hex without getting tired.

We know that there's real-time combat (as "real" as it can get given time-relativity on Erf) possible in each hex. The warlords could be moving to their mounts, could be getting their weapons, etc.


Standards of measurement are irrelevant. The point is, that it is measurable, ergo, there are sub-points within a hex. My point was not to subdivide a hex into sub-hexes, that is an incorrect interpretation of my comment, my point was merely to prove that every point within a hex is not the same as every other point. Movement requires multiple points in space.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby crazyguy_co » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:41 am

oberon wrote:
Parson knew leader units could under some circumstances lead dance fights. If he's pinning his hopes on this strategy he'd be a fool to assume that the few RCC lead units who could dance fight could not lead a dance fight. And Parson is no fool. All it would take would be a few simple calculations on his gauntlet to confirm this, and this would not even require any of the prediction based calculations Charlie help him figure out how to do.



Thats the crux of it. He knew LEADER units could. Archons are not leaders. Not only that, but when he said the sentence, they had rejoined... but when he made the plans, which was the night before, charlescomm was NOT part of the coalition. Charlescomm rejoining booped up his other plans.


As far as the quote, your deliberatly ignoring the key sentence. "I was going to undermine everything they did". No this does not involve CHANGING rules. But this most certainly involves not INFORMING them of all the rules.

Lets get at this the other way. If he asked someone, just blank "can decrypted units dance fight" the answer would, in all likelihood, have been a straight "no" unless he asked Wanda. So when he asked "can Pikers dance fight" and "can Marbits dance fight" he got a no... because the people he has to rely on for information were not archons.

Parson got undermined, by a combination of Charlescomm rejoining after his plans were made, by not knowing all the rules, and by being outthought by Ansom. Maybe the reason he thought they couldn't is because the idea was a NEW ONE entirely that Ansom thought up... lets recall even his own side thought he was nuts. I don't call it a hackneyed plot device. I look at it as the EXACT opposite. Its what got Parson to realize that no one in erfworld REALLY knew all the rules, so it was up to him to find an obscure thing. I think the ddr routine lends credence to Parson's change from acting on the rules as he was told them, to telling THEM how to use the rules.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Darkside007 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:13 pm

Code: Select all
Ossomer:

"I got casters deployed to my command."        "I got casters deployed to my command."

Ansom:

"What? Really? To your command?"                "Really? To that hex?"

Ossomer:

"Yep."                                               "ggnormkthxbi"
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Biomekanic » Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am

npatchett wrote:Early in this thread various people (notably Hermod on page 3) pointed out that If jack is dressed as Kain from FF4 then he is the archetype of a betrayer. However, I don't think anyone has drawn the same analogy with Wanda's costume as Magenta from Rocky Horror. Magenta only wears the "bride of Frankenstein from space" costume at the end when she and Riff are about to murder their superior Frank and abscond with his entire castle. I suppose the joker is real backstabber too?

It seems there's a unilateral theme of betrayers; maybe this references Ansom sacking his own side, or maybe Wanda will turn on GK during this story?


Glad to know I'm not the only one thinking Magenta
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby John Campbell » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:39 pm

Ansom wrote:a Royal chief warlord, leading a stack of Noble warlords, in a hex full of casters

Oh hey look at that. The princes, the warlords, and the casters are all in the same hex.
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