Book 2 – Page 5

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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Infidel » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:27 am

ftl wrote:
Having your chief warlord not know his own plan is a far greater stupidity than taking the risk that "yes, if they capture the chief warlord, they can find out all his plans."


err, how can a chief warlord not know his own plan? I think you're trying to hard to discredit me by using arguments that are self invalidating. Nothing that I said even implied such a thing, and it's just about impossible for anyone not knowing their own plans. But once the chief warlord steps into the field, then the King can create whatever backup plan he wishes without telling the warlord.

Because the argument that a chief warlord wouldn't know what's going on with his own forces isn't credible enough to pursue debating.


It's not his forces. It's the king's forces. Ossomer had to ask for permission to use the casters. Ergo, he does NOT have control over all the king's forces, Chief Warlord title or no. He has no need to know the composition and disposition of any forces that are not in a position to reinforce him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby ftl » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:51 am

Infidel wrote:err, how can a chief warlord not know his own plan? I think you're trying to hard to discredit me by using arguments that are self invalidating. Nothing that I said even implied such a thing, and it's just about impossible for anyone not knowing their own plans. But once the chief warlord steps into the field, then the King can create whatever backup plan he wishes without telling the warlord.


Right, and thats' a major handicap - you're forcing your forces to be split up, not by choice, but because the chief warlord won't know he has another portion of the army. It'll cause him to make many stupid decisions - for example, rushing back to defend a capital that's already well-defended, or not being able to temporarily take troops from the castle defenses for a strike if Ansom boops up.

Remember what Parson said earlier on, how pissed he was that Wanda was witholding from him things he could have used against the RCC? Yeah, that.

It's not his forces. It's the king's forces. Ossomer had to ask for permission to use the casters. Ergo, he does NOT have control over all the king's forces, Chief Warlord title or no. He has no need to know the composition and disposition of any forces that are not in a position to reinforce him.


All the forces of Jetstone are in a position to reinforce him. It's a capital fight - pretty much everything Jetstone has is probably either in the capital, in that hex (if Ossomer is to be believed), in between the two, or possibly laying some other trap or doing some other maneuver against Wanda's army. I don't think there's any piece of Jetstone's army right now that isn't in a position to assist in this fight.

And, I'll repeat - decryption-based intelligence gathering isn't all that different, in terms of the information it can reveal, from capture-and-interrogate intelligence gathering, as we have seen Wanda use it. And that's been around for a while.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Dr Quest DFA » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:54 am

To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Or in this case, to a croakamancer attuned to the arkenpliers, every problem looks like a corpse waiting to be popped again.

I have a bad feeling that Wanda is going to get a little too creative for her pay grade and screw something up. Hubris, sadly, becomes her.

In either event I do not think we will see and major reversals in the next couple strips, still to early and new characters need to be developed.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby BoredToThinkName » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:06 am

Dr Quest DFA wrote:To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


:mrgreen: epic quote- this is so true it sounds wrong :P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Slowness » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:33 am

RukhHammerwing wrote:Why did Parson take off his bracer? Is he not giving Wanda the benefit of his statistical skills?


I didn't even notice that! Here's a scenario that might make sense.

Parson, "Bracer, what are the odds of Charlie asking me for a calculation this turn?"

Bracer, "100%"

Parson, "Hey, Zhopa! Hide this bracer from me, but don't give it back to me until tomorrow!"

Zhopa, "Sure."

EDIT: He seems to be wearing it actually... Still might be a good idea to hide it from himself if he knew Charlie was going to ask for a calculation though...

EDIT2: If the corpses of units from a disbanded side disappear in addition to the units that are still alive, this battle just might be Erfworld's version of The Alamo. Units in the field have orders to beat the pudding out of anything that comes into the hex, and to protect/incinerate any and all fallen comrades to prevent them from being decrypted. As soon as the battle is inevitably lost, the King of Jetstone jumps into the portal to the Magic Kingdom. Basically a giant "Screw You" to Stanley. Who knows? There may even be an escape route planned for the princes & casters.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby crazyguy_co » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:18 am

Points of interest. Since this comes from reading throughout the thread, i didn't take the time to quote individuals... but merely am gonna point out what i noticed

1. The decrypt tactic- I said it before, as far as we know, decrypt works like uncroaking... And if thats true, you can't hit and run decrypt... you have to control the hex after the battle. Now there are clearly ways to move bodies since we learn bodies fanish if not uncroaked or moved... so its still possible, but it wouldn't be my automatic choice.

2. Not all archons are leaders. Some have leadership... at least one does... but for all we know this archon is "promoted" to some warlord status, kinda like Stanley was "promoted" to heir?

Dunno, just saying its a bit much to just assume archons can selectively engage any more than dwagons. Can always send a low level warlord with the dwagons, which is prolly cheaper than sending an archon with leadership/

3, The arkenpliars DO have at least one other ability, while on that subject- they can slice through uncroaked units with ease, and it appears even without fear of retaliation by said decrypted.

As for the arkenhammer... we have no idea its capabilities. Stanley is an idiot. The walnut to pigeon thing is probably a lot more important than he realizes, and could be wasting a huge part of its power. Beyond that, remember stanley was finding dragons faster than he mathmatically should have, so its possible it somehow makes hexes near the attuned person pop them faster? *shrug* don't discount them as weaker just cause stanley is a fool.


My personal guess is that lone piker is somehow gonna be used in Wanda's plan, rather than a risky strike involving herself. Maybe only an infantry can carry corpses, for example, and its coming to bring it back to her hex, rather than her going to it?


Also something occured to me.... something very odd. What if Wanda and Jack both turned to Faq? The were both Faq casters once... and both had loyalty to Jillian. she didn't HAVE a side to turn to when she tried on both... but lets say that explains her "bad luck" on spawning casters? Maybe she has two and doesn't realize it? If thats true... we may have some interesting times. I don't have any evidence of this one, so a pretty flimsy argument, just a shot in the dark.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:48 am

Slowness wrote:Still might be a good idea to hide it from himself if he knew Charlie was going to ask for a calculation though...

There's really no good reason to even try this, and lots of reasons not to:
1) We know that time passes differently in each hex, so hours could go by for Parson while no time passes at all for Charlie. Charlie would simply say "Go get your bracer and call me back when you've got it."
2) Every calculation Charlie makes pays off one owed debt. Parson's sense of 'fairness' would lead him to honor it, but more importantly, every question Charlie asks is also information for Parson. "How many archons would it take to wipe out the garrison at Warchalking?" means that Parson now knows that Warchalking is a target of interest.
3) It's GK's turn. Having it handy, to be able to run dozens of calculations, is far more beneficial on GK's turn. Even if Parson were going to hide it, he should only hide it when it's not GK's turn, since Charlie can't really react to most things when it isn't his turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby raphfrk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:42 am

crazyguy_co wrote:1. The decrypt tactic- I said it before, as far as we know, decrypt works like uncroaking... And if thats true, you can't hit and run decrypt... you have to control the hex after the battle. Now there are clearly ways to move bodies since we learn bodies fanish if not uncroaked or moved... so its still possible, but it wouldn't be my automatic choice.


Are you sure that is true? It could just be that it is a bad idea to put a caster at risk in the middle of a battle, if at all possible.

Assuming croakamancers can uncroak during combat, a counter to the pliers would be to have your own croakamancer. You could uncroak any dead bodies and thus prevent them being available for decryption.

3, The arkenpliars DO have at least one other ability, while on that subject- they can slice through uncroaked units with ease, and it appears even without fear of retaliation by said decrypted.


They also add a massive bonus to all uncroaked units (unless that was Wanda's croakamancer bonus).

My personal guess is that lone piker is somehow gonna be used in Wanda's plan, rather than a risky strike involving herself. Maybe only an infantry can carry corpses, for example, and its coming to bring it back to her hex, rather than her going to it?


Yeah, that was what I was thinking. It is showing the person who is going to bear the brunt of the plan.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Romanosuke » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:50 am

Sokrotes wrote:Ooh i found a small error. In Panel 5 of this page parson is walking and his arms are swinging, the only time u see the lower part of his left arm on this page. His Bracer is not there!! Im sure this was a simple error on the cartoonist, he had it on page 2 so its not like he isnt wearing it. Just thought id point out, yay the first mistake i have personally found!


I am pretty sure the bracer wasn't there when you orignially made this post, but it seems like the bracer is there now that I took a look again recently.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Raza » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:11 am

Infidel wrote:
Raza wrote:Decrypting a unit is making a forceful grab at information about what Jetstone's got going on. Scouting hexes is doing the same. Both have advantages, both have flaws; it's the difference between listening at a door or peeking through the keyhole. The point is that you're doing what you can (and in that light, it might be wise to scout as well as decrypt), not that it is structurally foolish to act without having attained a specific arbitrary level of intelligence..


On the contrary, the effects of Decryption on units is now fully realized by all known forces. And one of the most basic ways to combat the intelligence exposure is to encapsulate information--and even deliberately misinform one's own troops. Since we have every indication that the coalition forces are led by intelligent individuals, there is no reason to assume they have not accounted for this in all of their planning. It is poor strategy to rely on the enemies inexperience or stupidity. Take advantage of any opportunities discovered, but don't create plans that require the enemy to be stupid to succeed.

While scouts can still be fooled, archons can pierce veils, so yes, using a specific method of intelligence gathering is hardly arbitrary. You don't just want some arbitrary intelligence, you want the BEST intelligence that you can get, even at the expense of lost units. The more critical the mission, the more critical ALL expedient means for gathering intelligence are explored.

The point is, if something is veiled or otherwise hidden, there is still at least a chance of discovering it, and there are different actions that can be done to improve those chances. But if someone doesn't know something, then no matter what the means used for the interrogation, there is no chance of getting that information from them. Interrogation is a high risk method that should be compensated with another method that minimizes the risk.

There's nothing contrary about that. All sides have been aware of the effects of scouting since forever; that doesn't mean that everything you see is a trap laid against you. Archons are good scouts, granted, but the biggest problem is still that a city can contain any number of units out of sight and if they're not coming out, you're not going to know about them. This is equivalent to your critique of interrogation.

In a battle, game or war you have limited resources; even if you are aware that there's a chance an enemy might try a specific approach to get at you, you often have to pass up on investing in a counter because it would hinder something else you want to do. Maybe hiding units will leave them with a slower response time. Maybe organising it so that your standing army doesn't know about the secret force of gwiffons guarding the city they're deployed in required that this gwiffon force be deployed a hex away, able to respond only on their own turn - or maybe they tried doing it secretively without such measures, and an inconveniently redeployed guard here or errant-running infantry there saw them anyway, and reasonably choose to inform their commanding officer. Maybe there is a way to guard against everything at once and retain the resources for a plan of your own, but the leadership's just not smart, disciplined, experienced or communicative enough to pull it off. And decryption is nothing like torture and interrogation because the subject will want to help you, and is going to volunteer every shred of potentially-useful information they have.

You cannot assume that just because your enemy is able to know that you might try a given thing, they will be fully prepared to deal with it - that sort of thinking will paralyse you. Most warfare will be trying things you know people are expecting but that are still likely to work, because those people have a limited ability to do anything about it - this is the defining characteristic of force. Having something completely new and unexpected is a rare and overwhelming advantage, and they did kind of squander that on decryption, but it's still a pretty awesome and versatile tool.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:17 am

ftl wrote:Right, and thats' a major handicap - you're forcing your forces to be split up, not by choice, but because the chief warlord won't know he has another portion of the army. It'll cause him to make many stupid decisions - for example, rushing back to defend a capital that's already well-defended, or not being able to temporarily take troops from the castle defenses for a strike if Ansom boops up.

Remember what Parson said earlier on, how pissed he was that Wanda was witholding from him things he could have used against the RCC? Yeah, that.


Parson said one shouldn't withhold information from the guy who plans the battle. If Ossomer plans the battle, it would be stupid to not tell him something. But if Slatley himself plans the whole battle, it would be a good idea. We don't know very much about Slatley. But we do know that he has a empire big enough to let him make three heirs. That indicates that Slatley was quite successful when he was still heir and chief warlord. And we know that he considers Ansom a better chief warlord than Ossomer. Otherwise he wouldn't have made him chief warlord. So I think Slatley is leading the war efforts and doesn't tell Ossomer everything.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Firkraag » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:58 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Parson said one shouldn't withhold information from the guy who plans the battle. If Ossomer plans the battle, it would be stupid to not tell him something. But if Slatley himself plans the whole battle, it would be a good idea. We don't know very much about Slatley. But we do know that he has a empire big enough to let him make three heirs. That indicates that Slatley was quite successful when he was still heir and chief warlord. And we know that he considers Ansom a better chief warlord than Ossomer. Otherwise he wouldn't have made him chief warlord. So I think Slatley is leading the war efforts and doesn't tell Ossomer everything.


As long as you're clear that this is a theory (Ossomer doesn't know everything) based on a speculation (Slately is really leading), and the speculation is based on guesswork (Slately is awesome, and not just a fat old dude who benefitted from others) which is based on another theory, and so on... :roll:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Tiger » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:20 am

theseus2x wrote:c. People have brought up that Stanley seemed to credit Ansom with the plan. They forget that Stanley NEVER credits Parson, whereas Ansom, post-decrypt, is his ideal dream Warlord. Handsome, powerful... and totally devoted to the megalomaniac in charge of GK. Ansom never took credit.

Parson credited Ansom too. Panel 6.

2) Regarding how Wanda is going to gain intelligence, please look at the last panel. There has been much speculation about who that lone figure is. When I squint at it, I think its a Marbit, who for some reason isn't where he SHOULD be. (Seriously - look at the ears.)
a. If the Marbit is loyal to Jetstone, then the Marbit probably knows what's going on. Wanda can croak him, decrypt him and ask him.
b. If the Marbit is GK decrypted, then perhaps Wanda's plan is to have him infiltrate Jetstone's forces somehow (Foolamancy?) and get information that way. Simple spy stuff.
c. Here's my 1-in-1,000,000 theory : The Marbit is TECHNICALLY loyal to Jetstone, but is looking to turn. The 'holy war' Wanda has started has caused cracks, in other words some Marbit is sick of being ordered around by Jetstone Royals, and is too dumb to realize that Stanley is (probably) worse.

Our grand poo-bah write is no doubt going to go with whatever would make the best story, NOT whatever seems natural just based on the limited information we have. And that, my friends, is a good thing. :mrgreen:

It doesn't look like a marbit. The ears are too red, which makes me think they're something else. Also, Wanda was on the ground before and is now in the air, so she's moving away from the figure, not towards it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Dahak » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:03 pm

Menas wrote:Thanks, that makes sense. Especially if the RCC takes the turn of whichever member is leading the RCC (when they re-formed it was Transylvito).


Alliance act on the turn of the member of the alliance who has the last place in the natural turn order.

Which we know IIRC is

Barbarians. [And unaligned Natural Allies?]
Charlescom.
Transylvito.
Gobwin's Knob.
Last Placed Member of the RCC. [We don't know which this is]
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Pindanin » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:24 pm

crazyguy_co wrote:1. The decrypt tactic- I said it before, as far as we know, decrypt works like uncroaking... And if thats true, you can't hit and run decrypt... you have to control the hex after the battle. Now there are clearly ways to move bodies since we learn bodies fanish if not uncroaked or moved... so its still possible, but it wouldn't be my automatic choice.


How do we know that you have to control the hex after battle? Is there a quote page you can refer me to?
My thoughts there is that Wanda is just doing the most effective thing at the time.
Its better to Fireball in the fight and uncroak/decrypt later than to uncroak/decrypt in the fight and fireball later. :D
After all a fireball is going to be more effective then a lvl 1 piker.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby theseus2x » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:51 pm

crazyguy_co wrote:1. The decrypt tactic- I said it before, as far as we know, decrypt works like uncroaking... And if thats true, you can't hit and run decrypt... you have to control the hex after the battle. Now there are clearly ways to move bodies since we learn bodies fanish if not uncroaked or moved... so its still possible, but it wouldn't be my automatic choice.


Point of order : So far, decrypted units seem not to have most of the disadvantages of uncroaked. (i.e. they are intelligent, for example) In fact, they are far closer to normal units then decrypted, with the exception that they don't cost upkeep.

So I personally think that until we are told / indicated otherwise, we should assume that decrypted are capable of hit and run, and pretty much all the other manuveurs a normal unit could make.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Tiger » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:39 pm

Dahak wrote:
Menas wrote:Thanks, that makes sense. Especially if the RCC takes the turn of whichever member is leading the RCC (when they re-formed it was Transylvito).


Alliance act on the turn of the member of the alliance who has the last place in the natural turn order.

Which we know IIRC is

Barbarians. [And unaligned Natural Allies?]
Charlescom.
Transylvito.
Gobwin's Knob.
Last Placed Member of the RCC. [We don't know which this is]

How do we know this?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby asparagus » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:48 pm

Tiger wrote:
Dahak wrote:
Menas wrote:Thanks, that makes sense. Especially if the RCC takes the turn of whichever member is leading the RCC (when they re-formed it was Transylvito).


Alliance act on the turn of the member of the alliance who has the last place in the natural turn order.

Which we know IIRC is

Barbarians. [And unaligned Natural Allies?]
Charlescom.
Transylvito.
Gobwin's Knob.
Last Placed Member of the RCC. [We don't know which this is]

How do we know this?


It's documented in the wiki: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Turn including pointing back to the comic or other sources.
The interesting unresolved question is what determines the order of sides. I wonder if it is ordered by the side's leader's name in alphabetical order.
This would explain

Charlescomm - Charles
Transylvito - Don King
Gobwin Knob - Stanley
RCC - some side must have a leader whose name comes after Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:00 pm

Firkraag wrote:As long as you're clear that this is a theory (Ossomer doesn't know everything) based on a speculation (Slately is really leading), and the speculation is based on guesswork (Slately is awesome, and not just a fat old dude who benefitted from others) which is based on another theory, and so on... :roll:


I never let something redundant like "facts" and "secured evidence" get in my way. I prefer my own claim-based science. ;)
However I would like to point out that only the assumption about Slatley's abilities are speculation, and they do not contradict any given information. Actually, Don points out, that he likes to talk to Slatley, because he "sometimes makes a lot of sense". And that Ossomer doesn't know what's going on and that Slatley leads the battle are not two different wild assumptions building on each other, but both part of one, complex, wild theory. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby asparagus » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:11 pm

I love the phrase
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:claim-based science
.
it reminds me of some vicious real-world debates between real science and "claim based science".

Also I hope that we are going to get to know the GK archons as individuals not just so that their pictures can be put up on the wiki, but so that their actual characters start to come out. We seem to have identified "Ginger". Which one is MaryAnn? The blonde doing the Thinkagram looks to me like a stereotypical dumbe blonde. Overall I rather hope she is anything but.
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