Book 2 – Text Updates 003

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby sheepfly » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:56 pm

(name here) wrote:Don't see what exactly Don King is up to, though. I do sense some sort of incredibly elaborate backstab as a possibility. It just doesn't feel quite right otherwise. Alternately, the multiple chief warlords theory may have something to it. Mind, what makes things really weird is that he isn't developing a minor ally/vassal using spare money, he's actively weakening his own empire. He could have recruited Jil on a permanent basis and claimed the city as his own, as far as I can tell. Then again, maybe barbarian warlords can't be reintegrated in the normal fashion.

The only remaining possibility is that reestablishing FAQ as an independent side improved relations with some sides we haven't seen.


Don King could be even more leery of having his "secrets" revealed through decryption than Charlie was. Bankrolling an allied warlord who knows very little about the inner workings of TV would be good; Jillian is ideal with her high leadership bonus, high stats (she's a royal), and any combat benefits conferred from being a ruler. Also, it has never been established whether gwiffons and/or megalogwiffs can be decrypted. If Don King knows this, he might be willing to gamble that they *can't* be decrypted, making them the perfect air counter against the pliers. Jillian's fighting strategy is predominately based on use of gwiffons, once again making her an ideal ally.

This would also explain why Vinnie wasn't brought along or even informed of Jillian's mission.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby (name here) » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:08 pm

sheepfly wrote:
(name here) wrote:Don't see what exactly Don King is up to, though. I do sense some sort of incredibly elaborate backstab as a possibility. It just doesn't feel quite right otherwise. Alternately, the multiple chief warlords theory may have something to it. Mind, what makes things really weird is that he isn't developing a minor ally/vassal using spare money, he's actively weakening his own empire. He could have recruited Jil on a permanent basis and claimed the city as his own, as far as I can tell. Then again, maybe barbarian warlords can't be reintegrated in the normal fashion.

The only remaining possibility is that reestablishing FAQ as an independent side improved relations with some sides we haven't seen.


Don King could be even more leery of having his "secrets" revealed through decryption than Charlie was. Bankrolling an allied warlord who knows very little about the inner workings of TV would be good; Jillian is ideal with her high leadership bonus, high stats (she's a royal), and any combat benefits conferred from being a ruler. Also, it has never been established whether gwiffons and/or megalogwiffs can be decrypted. If Don King knows this, he might be willing to gamble that they *can't* be decrypted, making them the perfect air counter against the pliers. Jillian's fighting strategy is predominately based on use of gwiffons, once again making her an ideal ally.

This would also explain why Vinnie wasn't brought along or even informed of Jillian's mission.


I dunno, that seems kinda elaborate. Couldn't he just funnel shumkers to Jetstone instead, or alternately amass a bat/warlord swarm so large it blots out the sun and send it in?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby regisminae » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:41 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:Is anyone surprised at the TV battle table? It seems a lot like the tri-mancer table. How are they doing it? Bats is the obvious answer but then they would have had to have a bat in the hex across the bridge to know GW had entered it. Then we would have seen a battle. I don't think that's the sort of thing that would have been left out of an update. Veiled warlords? Nope. Could be updates via thinkamancer. It's certainly not a tri-mancer of their own. Bunny is always refered to as an individual. Any other ideas?


I'd expect the small number of bats that Caesar mentions are in the battlespace to relay information (with Bunny providing direction as needed).

Judging by the reference to croupier's rakes in the hands of the Dolls, they're probably manually adjusting the table, somewhat like Stanley was described as doing in the Summer Update that began with him telling Ansom to relax.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Dr Pepper » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:31 am

Mikalyaran wrote:Is anyone surprised at the TV battle table? It seems a lot like the tri-mancer table. How are they doing it? Bats is the obvious answer but then they would have had to have a bat in the hex across the bridge to know GW had entered it. Then we would have seen a battle. I don't think that's the sort of thing that would have been left out of an update. Veiled warlords? Nope. Could be updates via thinkamancer. It's certainly not a tri-mancer of their own. Bunny is always refered to as an individual. Any other ideas?


Info/Process/display

In GK, The lookamancer got the info, the thinkamancer processed it, and the foolamancer made an illusion of it for people to see.

In TV, the bats send the info directly to Bunny, she processes it and directs the dolls to move the miniatures.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:45 am

I think the tri-caster link GK used had more umph than TV version.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby konmanrocks » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:59 am

I dunno, that seems kinda elaborate. Couldn't he just funnel shumkers to Jetstone instead, or alternately amass a bat/warlord swarm so large it blots out the sun and send it in?

it didnt work for the persians, so it wont work for TV. you do that, and your going to get 300 men in underwear that will slaughter you!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Joe22c. » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:00 am

I dunno, that seems kinda elaborate. Couldn't he just funnel shumkers to Jetstone instead, or alternately amass a bat/warlord swarm so large it blots out the sun and send it in?


Then they would fight in the shade.




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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:07 am

kagato23 wrote:I don't think they realy are equivalents. Using Vinny's bats the way they did early on...


True, they were just the closest I could think of.

Oberon wrote:It sure seems that way. And I'm wondering where the profit is in that, for TV? In any TBS game I've ever played it has been far more useful to have a single side wielding all of the resources than to have two allied sides with the resources split between them. A single side is better able to react to surprises, and can apply all of the combined resources to handle those surprises. The sole benefit I see from having two sides is that you effectively go twice in the turn, but about the time that becomes an advantage over allying and going at the same time you're already much stronger than any opposition.


It is interesting - I guess in the context if TV can use Faq to help stop GK from conquering it then the rewards are priceless. Or at least with Faq it is one more side GK has to deal with, so the stronger they are the better.

Perhaps it has to do with flyers - so far there have only really been three sides with a strong airforce - Faq, GK and TV (Charlie too, kind of). TV at the moment has a number of enemies willing to take advantage of any weakness, and if TV sent of a ton of its flyers to help the RCCII Carpool etc would likely have a field day (more then it is at the moment). This way the RCII can still have strong flyers (Jillian) without TV having to send away too many of its troops.

I'm sure there is a lot more to it then that though, but clearly Don thinks there is great use in having Faq around and strong (ish) to boot.

MarbitChow wrote:I don't think that TV's warlords are naturally better than others initially; I think TV just risks their warlords far more than other sides do, and thus they level much faster than average.


I don't know, if they all pop capable of flight (unless like Archons it is a special they can pick up) I'd think a lv 1 TV warlords might have an edge on a lv 1 non-TV warlord. And it seems a noble warlord has slightly better stats then a non-royal one, so it is possible some sides might have warlords that seem "better" since they have natural abilites unlike the warlords of other sides.

It would balance if such warlords took longer to pop, so you could have a Jetstone that can pop lots of noble warlords, or a TV that pops warlords with specials like flight at a slower rate.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Aquillion » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:34 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:It would balance if such warlords took longer to pop, so you could have a Jetstone that can pop lots of noble warlords, or a TV that pops warlords with specials like flight at a slower rate.
Other sides might have other advantages to balance it, too. Bonuses to tax income, higher loyalty from captured units, more powerful special units, natural allies, etc.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby theseus2x » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:09 am

Aquillion wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:It would balance if such warlords took longer to pop, so you could have a Jetstone that can pop lots of noble warlords, or a TV that pops warlords with specials like flight at a slower rate.
Other sides might have other advantages to balance it, too. Bonuses to tax income, higher loyalty from captured units, more powerful special units, natural allies, etc.


Exactly. Erfworld WANTS a certain level of balance so that war will be eternally encouraged.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Mikalyaran » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:17 am

Dr Pepper wrote:In GK, The lookamancer got the info, the thinkamancer processed it, and the foolamancer made an illusion of it for people to see.

In TV, the bats send the info directly to Bunny, she processes it and directs the dolls to move the miniatures.


The dolls moving the pieces isn't what interests me. Its how TV is getting the info that does.

Bats would have to either be in the hexes in question (which is fine for non-gw hexes) or be given the info by those who know it. So what then? Jetstone has a liason whose job it is to tell a bat any information they pick up about whats going on? Seems somewhat reasonable but a little bit wonky. Mostly cause bats don't seem like they would be intelligent enough to relay complicated information like that. Maybe Bunny is able to get it out of them intact though since she is a thinkamancer. Maybe i'm just looking at a point not really worth considering. It just seems a little weird to me though.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby theseus2x » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:51 am

Mikalyaran wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:In GK, The lookamancer got the info, the thinkamancer processed it, and the foolamancer made an illusion of it for people to see.

In TV, the bats send the info directly to Bunny, she processes it and directs the dolls to move the miniatures.


The dolls moving the pieces isn't what interests me. Its how TV is getting the info that does.

Bats would have to either be in the hexes in question (which is fine for non-gw hexes) or be given the info by those who know it. So what then? Jetstone has a liason whose job it is to tell a bat any information they pick up about whats going on? Seems somewhat reasonable but a little bit wonky. Mostly cause bats don't seem like they would be intelligent enough to relay complicated information like that. Maybe Bunny is able to get it out of them intact though since she is a thinkamancer. Maybe i'm just looking at a point not really worth considering. It just seems a little weird to me though.


I draw on the example of Vinnie and his bats from Book 1. The information relayed to a user from its bat seems considerable, and there doesn't seem to be an "maximum range" that's been determined. So Caesar and each of the other warlords send a few bats over, and suddenly TV has one of the best reconnaisance-intelligence systems in the world, next to Charlie. Wonky? Sure. But possible.

And i don't see why bats couldn't hang around in GK hexes. Sure, a Thinkamancer might pick them up, but they can otherwise find some place to hide.

I keep thinking of Laserbeak in Transformers.... :roll:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby regisminae » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:57 pm

theseus2x wrote:The dolls moving the pieces isn't what interests me. Its how TV is getting the info that does.

Bats would have to either be in the hexes in question (which is fine for non-gw hexes) or be given the info by those who know it. So what then? Jetstone has a liason whose job it is to tell a bat any information they pick up about whats going on? Seems somewhat reasonable but a little bit wonky. Mostly cause bats don't seem like they would be intelligent enough to relay complicated information like that. Maybe Bunny is able to get it out of them intact though since she is a thinkamancer. Maybe i'm just looking at a point not really worth considering. It just seems a little weird to me though.

I draw on the example of Vinnie and his bats from Book 1. The information relayed to a user from its bat seems considerable, and there doesn't seem to be an "maximum range" that's been determined. So Caesar and each of the other warlords send a few bats over, and suddenly TV has one of the best reconnaisance-intelligence systems in the world, next to Charlie. Wonky? Sure. But possible.

And i don't see why bats couldn't hang around in GK hexes. Sure, a Thinkamancer might pick them up, but they can otherwise find some place to hide.

I keep thinking of Laserbeak in Transformers.... :roll:


I doubt that TV could just have bats hide in GK's hexes - anytime GK troops (including archons on patrol) pass through, the bats would be forced (by my understanding of the Erfworld Rules of Engagement) to attack them, as they do not have a warlord in their stack directing them.

So, my assumption here is that the bats spoken of in the text update are dispersed throughout the Jetstone hexes past the Expository Bridge. Maybe there even were a few in the hex with the Dittomancer and the Princes, but were far enough back that they didn't engage before the strike force left the hex.

Better idea: since TV is allied with Jetstone, the bats in the Dittomancer's hex are stacked with a Jetstone warlord, and thus are not obligated to engage as soon as a non-allied unit enters the hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:09 pm

(name here) wrote:I dunno, that seems kinda elaborate. Couldn't he just funnel shumkers to Jetstone instead, or alternately amass a bat/warlord swarm so large it blots out the sun and send it in?


Because attacking GK with overwhelming numbers worked so very well the LAST time they did that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Lothmar » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:20 pm

Not sure if anyone's said this yet, but the problem I see with the whole 'hey lets just send 1000 of our cheapest units with the most force multipliers we can amass' tactic of TV and bats is the sheer weakness of the bats. Sure with enough multipliers they have an effective attack that's on par with some solid infantry but as far as I can tell Leadership does not improve the hits you can take and im assuming each bat isnt even 1/10'th of a hit because it takes so many to block an attack or so many die per attack of certain enemies launched. So unless that method actually succeded, GK would would simply have a second air armada of disposable decrypted scouts that could be on par with heavy infantry+ in a stack with a chief warlord+wanda+artifact bonuses.

Wow... I just pictured something sad. A black blob of flying Bats intercepting hits from the archer volleys for the dragon flight squad. XD
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:08 pm

Lothmar wrote:Not sure if anyone's said this yet, but the problem I see with the whole 'hey lets just send 1000 of our cheapest units with the most force multipliers we can amass' tactic of TV and bats is the sheer weakness of the bats. Sure with enough multipliers they have an effective attack that's on par with some solid infantry but as far as I can tell Leadership does not improve the hits you can take and im assuming each bat isnt even 1/10'th of a hit because it takes so many to block an attack or so many die per attack of certain enemies launched. So unless that method actually succeded, GK would would simply have a second air armada of disposable decrypted scouts that could be on par with heavy infantry+ in a stack with a chief warlord+wanda+artifact bonuses.

Wow... I just pictured something sad. A black blob of flying Bats intercepting hits from the archer volleys for the dragon flight squad. XD


Actually, depending on how combat is run, having almost no hits is actually an advantage.
Let's say that 4 bats equals one normal infantry. Each bat can take 1 hit, each infantry can take 4 hits.
An area of effect attack that does 2 damage to each unit wipes out all four bats, but the infantry is still standing.
A single attack that does 5 damage drops both a bat and an infantry in one swing, but there are still 3 bats remaining.
I don't think 'overkill damage' carries over from one unit to the next, so single-target, massive damage units are more vulnerable to the bat-swarm.

But yeah, if Wanda can darken the skies with swarms of doom bats, that's pretty intimidating.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Rogthnor01 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:58 pm

I think the tri-caster link GK used had more umph than TV version.
The Tri-caster linkup that GK used was better because TV has to get close to an enemy with it's bats to gain info while the eyemancer allows them to do so without ever getting near the enemy. This eliminates the need for scouts as well as providing better info.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby OneHugeTuck » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:32 pm

Lothmar wrote:Not sure if anyone's said this yet, but the problem I see with the whole 'hey lets just send 1000 of our cheapest units with the most force multipliers we can amass' tactic of TV and bats is the sheer weakness of the bats. Sure with enough multipliers they have an effective attack that's on par with some solid infantry but as far as I can tell Leadership does not improve the hits you can take and im assuming each bat isnt even 1/10'th of a hit because it takes so many to block an attack or so many die per attack of certain enemies launched. So unless that method actually succeded, GK would would simply have a second air armada of disposable decrypted scouts that could be on par with heavy infantry+ in a stack with a chief warlord+wanda+artifact bonuses.

Wow... I just pictured something sad. A black blob of flying Bats intercepting hits from the archer volleys for the dragon flight squad. XD



Send the chief warlord, and all in his stack are heavies. And there's more than 8 bats per stack. IF there are 50 bats to a warlord led bat stack (number as yet undetermined) that would be -50- heavy units.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:17 pm

regisminae wrote:
I doubt that TV could just have bats hide in GK's hexes - anytime GK troops (including archons on patrol) pass through, the bats would be forced (by my understanding of the Erfworld Rules of Engagement) to attack them, as they do not have a warlord in their stack directing them.



Scouting units seem to be an exception to auto-attack. Consider the complex orders given to gobwin scouts in the battle under Gobwin Knob: "Gobwin stacks will lead with single scouts sniffing ahead. When the scouts encounter Marbits or unled infantry, they're to attack in force. When they locate warlords and heavies, track them or trap them. And call in Sizemore. If they pursue, lead them into traps, or towards Sizemore."

At this point, the only GK commanders left in GK were the casters and Parson, so how I interpret the above is that the scouts didn't auto-attack, and (being smarter than bats) could selectively allow the regular Gobwins to come into contact with Marbits, at which point auto-attacking would happen.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby sheepfly » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:43 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:At this point, the only GK commanders left in GK were the casters and Parson, so how I interpret the above is that the scouts didn't auto-attack, and (being smarter than bats) could selectively allow the regular Gobwins to come into contact with Marbits, at which point auto-attacking would happen.


Unfortunately, this doesn't tell us much about how relative intelligence affects ability to avoid auto-engagement, because as you point out, Parson, the thinkamancer relaying his orders, and the dirtamancer managing the tunnel battle were all IN THE HEX. (Different zones, maybe, but definitely same hex.) This doesn't contradict anything we've been previously told about units auto-engaging when they are not led.
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