Book 2 – Page 11

[Roketter]

I think Wanda realizes Parson and Stanley are likely going to order some sort of retreat, or at least guide the fight in a way that won't lead to a direct capital strike with all those enemy reinforcements on the field. But... With Jack and his magic once again on the field without waiting for the next turn, they would have the advantage once again and she could get all she wants (Jillian) instantly. Also, healing Jack means one less healomancy scroll for Wanda. I'm starting to think she's not all that eager of sharing her "Private stash" for the cause.

[Menas]

I think that unless Wanda turns to her own side or a side other than Stanley's, she still needs to ask for permission when it comes to doing things she has good reason to believe he won't like.

Otherwise it gives Stanley the opportunity to hurt her. A lot.

Also, I don't know if Wanda is ready to engage in a full-out war with the Magic Kingdom. It may not have entered into her calculations, but I'm thinking that if the Magic Kingdom finds out that Wanda would rather kill and decrypt casters than spend a scroll to heal them, she would lose popularity very quickly. Casters would probably refuse to work for her and any side that employs her, if not initiate a war against any side that employs her.

The consequences of such an action would most likely create a great liability for both herself and GK.

Then again, she seems kind of power mad at this point. I don't think she likes having to ask for permission. Stanley saying 'no' might cause her to break off and form her own side. After which she might try to immediately croak all of Stanley's units that are with her so she can decrypt them.

[Bunta]

Hmm, not sure if someone mentioned this before, but instead of plotting someting greater, what if Wanda is just not allowed (by duty, loyalty, w/e) to croak someone on her own side? This would be a simpler explanation as of why she asked for permission to croak/decrypt Jack, but didn't for Ossomer. After all, Jack is a unit that responds to the Tool directly (considering the game-like mechanics of Erfworld), and to croak him to decrypt him afterwards could be considered an act of treason, or something like it, in "game" terms.

Best regards,

[shawndream]

Agree with most:
- Wanda seems unusually focused on her new toy (perhaps understandable)
- Wasting a "first life" is very stupid
- Stanley is definitely growing on me
- Wanda is a very dangerous loose canon, with unusually few bonds on her

One person mentioned the Maggie + Parson relationship during the summer updates, which I found very interesting. I also think she has a bit of a crush on him, but there is another side to this equation as well.

- Loyalty and leadership are natural thinkamancy
- Maggie's behavior drastically changed towards Parson when they discussed this
- Parson explained that manipulating others for personal gratification was immoral in his view
- Maggie is a very experienced full thinkamancer

Do to the nature of erfworld's mechanics, it seems nearly all units are mind controlled to varying degrees, by loyalty, duty, spells, or leadership. Warlords (and the caster subset of that type), and side leaders have fewer people controlling them, but it does not seem to bother anyone in this world much. In Maggie's long experience, she has probably used her thinkamancy as freely and wildly in her youth as Wanda is using her tool now.

In fact, she may well have been considering using her thinkamancy on Parson if she couldn't tempt him to use leadership on her... a plan she dropped when she discovered his "unusual" views on thinkamancy brokered relations.

I would be surprised if thinkamancers were not the freest agents on erfworld, with their control of the bonds of the mind.

Hippiemancers probably also very free, as I think they were mentioned as breaking rules. (And it seems apropos, Parson breaks rules, and orders, and he might not even know that Janis said he was a hippiemancer).

[MarbitChow]

I would be surprised if thinkamancers were not the freest agents on erfworld, with their control of the bonds of the mind.

Alternately, they could be the most prone to depression, since they can see their shackles more clearly than most.

[BLANDCorporatio]

"We're all puppets. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings."

And then he

Spoiler: show

kills Dumbledore.

[crazyguy_co]

Finally, one more thing. Parson says there's twenty reasons for not decrypting Jack, among them the evilness of it ... you know I disagree, and if Mr. Balder put that line in to convince us that the decrypted are a horde of evil, he should try again. If you thought decryption is evil, that didn't change your mind. If you thought that decryption isn't evil, Parson's gut feelings won't change that either.

Even if you don't think decrypting is immoral (which is a pretty lame argument, as at the very least its mind control, which is immoral) certainly murder is, and she proposed KILLING him first.

[crazyguy_co]

I don't think Wanda's really evil per se. She's just making logical use of what's available to her, playing hard and playing to win. Realizing that while most things a warlord does has some sort of associated cost (move, hits, juice, scrolls), croaking and decrypting a unit costs nothing and yields an immediate reward; a loyal new unit with full hits. Decrypting Ossomer was both faster and more certain than trying to get him to turn willingly. Decrypting Jack will bring him back to full hits at no cost. Since the archons retain their magical specials, there's no reason to assume that a decrypted caster stops being a caster. Also, it's possible Wanda can 'heal' decrypted units using her own juice, which replenishes.

I like Jack, and I hope she does the right thing, but I'm not convinced the wrong thing is strictly evil. Just pragmatic. You know how it is; when all you have is a hammer gun, every problem looks like a nail that's over there.

Isn't that the very defenition of evil? I mean its not like real evil is intentionally evil... they just put "pragmatic" over "moral"

[BLANDCorporatio]

Even if you don't think decrypting is immoral (which is a pretty lame argument, as at the very least its mind control, which is immoral) certainly murder is, and she proposed KILLING him first.

It is apparent that most Erfworlders are under some form of mind control, be it natural thinkamancy, duty, loyalty or the like. This applies to all or almost all living Erfworlders.

They can voice (or at least think) disagreement with their leaders, see Caesar for instance; but so can the decrypted, see Ansom recently. Bottom line, the decrypted are under no more mind-control than anyone else in Erfworld is. Because of that, decryption=mind control=immoral is not an argument, because by the same token alive in Erfworld=mind control=immoral.

As for the second, murder is not murder when you can, and do it with the express intention to, bring the "dead" back.

[fehler]

Love the little halos on the archon figures. I'm guessing the caped figures are warlords, and non-caped just infantry? I couldn't pick out a caster figure on the table, if there was one.

[crazyguy_co]

Even if you don't think decrypting is immoral (which is a pretty lame argument, as at the very least its mind control, which is immoral) certainly murder is, and she proposed KILLING him first.

It is apparent that most Erfworlders are under some form of mind control, be it natural thinkamancy, duty, loyalty or the like. This applies to all or almost all living Erfworlders.

They can voice (or at least think) disagreement with their leaders, see Caesar for instance; but so can the decrypted, see Ansom recently. Bottom line, the decrypted are under no more mind-control than anyone else in Erfworld is. Because of that, decryption=mind control=immoral is not an argument, because by the same token alive in Erfworld=mind control=immoral.

As for the second, murder is not murder when you can, and do it with the express intention to, bring the "dead" back.

And yet, Jillian got angry at Wanda's use of thinkamancy on her, suggesting SHE thought it was wrong too. Natural circumstances and "physics" are one thing... this goes beyond that.

[BLANDCorporatio]

And yet, Jillian got angry at Wanda's use of thinkamancy on her, suggesting SHE thought it was wrong too. Natural circumstances and "physics" are one thing... this goes beyond that.

It IS wrong, and just like Janis who sees Erfworld as too much about war and therefore wrong in its construction.

Jillian's view on Wanda's manipulation of her, we know from Maggie what Overlords can do, what underlings will obey; we know that units can be disbanded with a thought; we know that Sizemore finds odd that Parson does not push his commanding weight as would be expected by someone in his position.

On the other hand, we have the decrypted, fresh arrivals with their loyalty initially set high to Wanda. They've been around for merely a short time but in that time we know that decrypted units are likely as they were before in most resepcts (see the Archons frolicking in their dorms) except their loyalty/worship of Wanda ... and we know that even that is possible to change, by what Ansom has just displayed on the previous strip.

The difference between living and decrypted Erfworlders are rather small.

Further, we know that in Erfworld the usual policy is to croak all captured troops except maybe warlords and casters. Decryption changes that line of practice.

No, it is far from clear that decryption is evil, or that decrypted are sub-Erfworlders.

I'll tell you what would sway me though. Bear with this.

Suppose that the Don finds out about Caesar and Bunny, and being a total boop-hole, he decides to test Caesar's loyalty by ordering him to kill Bunny. Caesar says no; he and Bunny might be croaked, or maybe just one would die, or maybe they run away or something but whatever, it should be clear that serious consequences were brought and nonetheless, Caesar made a choice of his own.

Now, we know Ansom finds croaking his family members to be uncalled for. So lets say that he's in a position to croak Tremennis or his father Slately, and Wanda orders him to do so. And he does, even as he begs and pleads with Wanda to order him to stop.

Not the exact scenarios I describe need to happen, but surely you understand the point and the comparison.

[Lord Kasavin]

Let's talk about this in game terms. Many casters are primarily useful close to or in combat- like Foolamancers say, Dirtamancers (c'mon Sizemore racked the most kills in TBfGK), Dittomancers, Croakamancers maybe. Lookamancers, Thinkamancers and Turnamancers are the only ones that we've actually seen, whose primary use would be away from the front line.

I wouldn't say "primarily useful." Every caster we've seen in any detail so far can contribute a lot to a war effort with out every participating in a fight. Some can also do great things on the front, but then they might get croaked and all their future utility is gone.

This is where talk of "balance" shows up, and usually in games wizards and such are squishy. They're very powerful because they cast, and if they were also very resistant and combat worthy nobody would pop anything else.

Only it appears that nobody can control even whether a caster will pop, let alone the type. So it could (should?) have been the case that casters were Gandalf-like heroes, capable to hold off Balrogs or lead a charge against an army of Orks and Naz-gul. You'd only have one for every five thousand stabbers anyway.

Well Erf is no Middle Earth. And even in Middle Earth a bowman was able to take down a Dragon with a single arrow. Middle Earth operated on a deterministic model where "fate" counted for a lot. Gandalf overcame challenges not because of his stats, but who he was as a person. Plus, plot.

From a game systems point of view, casters are primarily utility units, adding options to the side. They can be risked in combat, but usually aren't better off than a good warlord.

[BCCroaker]

In panel one, I've just noticed the mountains behind Gobwins Knob. They all have truncated peaks, as though they were all extinct/dormant volcanoes. That is to say, a whole mountain range for the three caster link to explode. How about that for a doomsday device.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Well Erf is no Middle Earth. And even in Middle Earth a bowman was able to take down a Dragon with a single arrow. Middle Earth operated on a deterministic model where "fate" counted for a lot. Gandalf overcame challenges not because of his stats, but who he was as a person. Plus, plot.

So I take it you wouldn't want to see Jack riding forth, shield held high against a blaze of arrows, against Jetstone while projecting images of goatse at the opposition.

If only Jack had access to 4chan ... who needs Shockamancers.

[the_tick_rules]

You know technically gandalf wasn't even a human at all. But that's a whole separate thread.

[HailGreen28]

Hi, just signed up because I thought it's not been given enough attention:

in the previous page, Wanda learned that the Queen of FAQ was nearby, and thereafter she requests the decrypting of Jack. Even though Parson may assume it is an experiment, Parson isn't necessarily right─so to assume Wanda's intentions are 'conserving a healomancy scroll' or 'experimenting with decrypted casters' isn't precisely something that's uh, good!

I think there's a reasonable chance that there are equally twenty reasons to decrypt Jack. One of them would be certainty of his loyalties and ensure he won't turn because of whatever Jillian may do, or perhaps she does it precisely to ensure he will stay loyal to Wanda--and Wanda herself could turn to Faq. Afterall, did she not say she hadn't ever expected Stanley to actually win the battle with Faq?

Stating downright that the Tool made a good decision seems hasty. After all, there's no guarantee this won't bite him in the bum four pages from now.

Jack had a perfect chance to turn on Stanley in the Battle of the Mountain Pass, and didn't.

I'd be a lot more worried about Wanda's loyalty than Jack's.

If/when Wanda turns, it'd be nice if Jack doesn't automatically Turn with her.

[MarbitChow]

If/when Wanda turns, it'd be nice if Jack doesn't automatically Turn with her.

Technically, all of the Decrypted are still Stanley's units. They just also have an exceptionally high loyalty to Wanda.
I'm not sure that it's a given that the units automatically become Wanda's, although those in the same hex probably can be converted.

[Llelldorin]

On a totally unrelated note, it's interesting to see the extent to which natural signamancy has affected Parson. Compare what he looked like in his first few appearances to the current page.

He's noticed that he's lost weight, which he attributed to exercise, but it's much more than that. He has well-developed muscles in his exposed forearms, now, for example. That'd make sense if he'd been practicing with a sword or something, but he hasn't--we've seen that in the text updates.

When he first arrived on Erfworld, Parson was a badly overweight man in a sedentary job. He's now extremely fit--enough so that Maggie can't resist asking probing questions. If you interpret that as natural signamancy, it makes perfect sense--he's a heavy unit warlord for major power.

[Sixty]

He also saw everyone out to destroy him as a sign of greatness and supported Wanda's torture hobby.

Actually, the sign of greatness comment was from Parson.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F032.jpg

No, Stanley was saying it from off screen. In tBfGK when someone speaks on panel they have no border to their text box, when they speak off-panel they do. (Now in book 2 they always have a border, it's just thicker when someone says something off-panel, see the Dittomancer's "I'll quadruple'em." off-panel remark here http://www.erfworld.com/2009/11/book-2- ... 93-page-8/) Parson says "Um... Yeah. Look, I know you're--" but the other text was Stanley's.