Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:12 pm

Undead Prince wrote:
let's remember it's being made by mere humans that cannot possibly mean every single thing they do to have five layers of inner symbolism or obliquely foreshadow the future events...


How often have I heard that one. Usually as an excuse to not use the brain for speculative thought.

{...}

Of course, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and a coincidence is just a coincidence, but you can't be sure without some thinking, which is what I’m doing here, and there’s no reason to get your panties in a knot about it.


I don't think anyone got their spirits ruffled, Undead Prince. So no need for that :)

Now, your interpretation of the skull is a valid interpretation that I happen to NOT agree with, but I didn't comment on it because interpretation is a thing for the reader, each reader.

I will go and say however what I just did, above. And to take note from my fav. author J. L. Borges, finding new interpretations and new ways to look at a work of literature, a painting and any cultural product really is to give life to that cultural product, piece of writing etc.

But one must not then assume to understand the authorial intent that went behind that cultural product. You can never really know, sometimes the authors themselves don't, and if there were one "true" way to look at things then they'd be dead artistically.

Every so often, the author makes it clear there's a message behind their work, of course. Other times, a good case can be made one way or another. But unless it's pretty transparent, it cannot be claimed to be final, so I'd say CelebrenIthil's call to moderation is not an appeal to mental indolence.

EDIT:

So in a nutshell, if you see a symbolic connection, that is chipper. But that doesn't mean the author put it there, nor does it mean that others will see it- even though you tell them where to look, they'll see things differently.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:29 pm

splintermute wrote:Speculating on why Jack didn't turn at the battle of the mountain pass, but might turn here - maybe he couldn't have turned to Jillian during the previous battle. She was still a barbarian at the time, and all she suggested was that he
"turn", not turn to her, or turn to Faq


No she didn't. She made no suggestion, or any other communication. All that happened between them was a startled mutual recognition.
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .4
User avatar
Dr Pepper
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:41 pm
Location: santa maria, ca

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:33 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:No she didn't. She made no suggestion, or any other communication. All that happened between them was a startled mutual recognition.


Really now, that is wrong.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Undead Prince » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:41 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Now, your interpretation of the skull is a valid interpretation that I happen to NOT agree with, but I didn't comment on it because interpretation is a thing for the reader, each reader. I will go and say however what I just did, above. And to take note from my fav. author J. L. Borges, finding new interpretations and new ways to look at a work of literature, a painting and any cultural product really is to give life to that cultural product, piece of writing etc.


Three cheers for words of wisdom.

But one must not then assume to understand the authorial intent that went behind that cultural product. You can never really know, sometimes the authors themselves don't, and if there were one "true" way to look at things then they'd be dead artistically.


Very well put, sir. Some authors, like David Lynch, for instance, specifically encourage interpretation, refusing to divulge their own ("true" or "canon") view of their oeuvre.

Every so often, the author makes it clear there's a message behind their work, of course. Other times, a good case can be made one way or another. But unless it's pretty transparent, it cannot be claimed to be final, so I'd say CelebrenIthil's call to moderation is not an appeal to mental indolence.


Well, I didn't make any "final" claims, and it was CelebrenIthil who conjectured that the author "cannot possibly mean" what I thought might be, and therefore I should abstain from my speculations. To me, frankly, it wasn't a call to moderation, but rather some kind of thought policing. Not an entirely constructive approach to a free discussion, IMHO.

Anyway, I suggest we get on with constructive posting and not waste any more time on empty exchanges.
Last edited by Undead Prince on Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Undead Prince
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:15 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:46 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:No she didn't. She made no suggestion, or any other communication. All that happened between them was a startled mutual recognition.


Really now, that is wrong.


Oops. Scratch that last, guess i need to reread BK1.
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .4
User avatar
Dr Pepper
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:41 pm
Location: santa maria, ca

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:47 pm

fractal wrote:Now, if it turned out that a bunch of the rider-less gwiffons in the background were actually Archons in disguise, that wouldn't particularly strain disbelief.


Actually, given what we learned from Maggie about how veiling works, I still think it'd be a stretch.

Now, some of the riders being Archons in disguise is entirely plausible.
DoctorJest
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:57 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Menas » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:50 pm

Disclaimer: I haven't read all the new posts from the latest update yet so if someone already posted my perusings, I apologize for any unnecessary redundancies.

I find it very interesting that Jack is starting to 'remember' some things. To me this suggests that he may not have remembered much when he saw Jillian before in the story, and that when he snapped out of being 'cracked', he was simply auto-following his normal imperative at the time, which was to follow and save his leader.

Now that he's healing more and starting to remember more things... I'm thinking at some point enough pieces are going to snap into the jigsaw puzzle for him to realize he's on the wrong side. Not to mention the fact that he (his side) was betrayed by Wanda when he was with Faq. The memory he just shared with us hints that he has enough information already to figure out that Wanda betrayed his side - he just hasn't realized it yet.
Menas
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:49 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Sieggy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:15 pm

But there's no 'wrong' side, there's only 'your' Side. If loyalty is an abstract number, upon what can dis/loyalty be based?
Right? Wrong? How do those apply in an Erf setting where war is the norm and peace is simply the breathing space one needs to rebuild your forces? How can there be love in a world without children, the ultimate justification for carnal love? There are depths here which have not yet been plumbed, and whose revelations I am content to allow the author to reveal at his leisure. Plotomancy trumps Nattermancy every time . . .
The Truth Will Set You Free. But First It Will Piss You Off.
User avatar
Sieggy
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:35 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby TheMutant » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:33 pm

I'm still pretty sure that Jack's going to be a huge part of whatever it is that causes the predicted disarray after this capital fight. My current guess- Jillian and Wanda do whatever, things go south and Wanda attempts to decrypt Jillian, Jack steps in to prevent that. I doubt Wanda croaks at this point, but I could be wrong- but I strongly suspect the Decrypted end up either gone (Wanda loses the Arkentool to Jillian, maybe?) or otherwise seperated from GK, as maybe Wanda finally defects to do her own thing, though I'm not sure how likely that is. The rate that she consults Parson is high and she had a first-hand experience of what he did to the Coalition, so she's well aware of what she'd be risking by opposing herself to him. Bonus points against Parson's forces if Jack defects or is captured- remember, he has intimate knowledge of Parson's tactical ability and tricks, to say nothing of the problem of having such a powerful caster in enemy hands.

/rambling speculation
Join the Erflings fanart gallery on DeviantArt!

Sixty wrote:Obviously the mystery caster has no particular feelings one way or the other about Parson, he simply heard "cue the Benny Hill music" and gave chase, compelled to do so by forces outside his control.
User avatar
TheMutant
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Washington State

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby dan2178 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:48 pm

There's quite a bit of story invested in Jillian to croak her off now and decryption would ruin Jillian's character, perhaps more than any other character, as she is shaped by a desire for freedom). This suggests that GK will lose this battle. Since there are so many unresolved issues and these issues help shape plot, I don't think Wanda or Jack will get croaked either. But who knows what plot twists, if any, await.
dan2178
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:22 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Yucca » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:07 pm

I don't know why everyone seems so certain that GK will lose this. Janis, in perfect prophet form, said that after the battle there will be "disarray", and Parson should be encouraged to step up.

Losing a battle is a setback, losing an army is a setback. This would throw the entire side into disarray. Losing a Wanda would suck, so would losing Jack. But while I can see this making Stanley very angry, I don't think he would panic. Nor would a situation with Wanda under the command of Jillian be sufficient. (which is completely unlikely anyway, Wanda is not going to submit to Jillian).

It's still early enough in the book that a giant out-of-left-field event could occur and be called a "plot development" rather than a "deus-ex". It might be something mundane that happens, but I'm looking for something big.
Yucca
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:05 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Watsit Hoohow » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:30 pm

Yucca wrote:I don't know why everyone seems so certain that GK will lose this. Janis, in perfect prophet form, said that after the battle there will be "disarray", and Parson should be encouraged to step up.


Gobwin Knob is going to lose somewhere in this. Janis predicts disarray. A total victory for Gobwin Knob in no way implies disarray. A very costly victory might, but then, very costly victories are so for a reason. GK is going to come out of this for the worse, and it'll be something bad enough to encourage Stanley to put Parson in command.

Losing a Wanda would suck, so would losing Jack. But while I can see this making Stanley very angry, I don't think he would panic. Nor would a situation with Wanda under the command of Jillian be sufficient. (which is completely unlikely anyway, Wanda is not going to submit to Jillian).


You're kidding, right? Losing Wanda would not just suck, it'd put a ginormous dent in GK, considering that Decryption is one of its greatest advantages. Not only would that wreck his momentum (especially assuming the decrypted dust if Wanda falls), it would embolden his royal enemies, since Toolism would be "proven" false. Parson would be encouraged to step up, most certainly if Wanda chose or was forced to stop working for GK. Not just because it'd be such a tremendous setback, but because Ansom (his choice for Chief Warlord) would go with her.

It's still early enough in the book that a giant out-of-left-field event could occur and be called a "plot development" rather than a "deus-ex". It might be something mundane that happens, but I'm looking for something big.


You'd be hard-pressed to get more disarray than somehow losing Wanda and/or the rest of the force Gobwin Knob has up there. What would you qualify as "disarray"?
Very Amazing Adventures (possibly inappropriate)
Watsit Hoohow
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby multilis » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:53 pm

Watsit Hoohow wrote:What would you qualify as "disarray"?

Jill anounces her upcoming marriage to Charlie, and asks Wanda to be the best woman at the wedding. Wanda agrees, and a truce is promised till after the wedding (which their bosses reluctantly have to follow because of their honour code).

Wanda secretly works with Ansom, Vinnie, and Jack to break up Charlie and Jill, each of them wanting Jill for themselves.

Ossomer suffers tramma from banging his head into the wall after observing all this.

:lol:
multilis
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby valce » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:40 pm

Wanda and Jack could just defect to Faq now... True she'd have trouble with all the non-decrypted dwagons currently with her, but they could be taken care of. I mean, Wanda has a decrypted unit on each of the dwagons, in prime positions to deal a killing blow.

-V
valce
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:18 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Sinrus » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:52 pm

valce wrote:Wanda has a decrypted unit on each of the dwagons, in prime positions to deal a killing blow.


There's a slight problem with destroying something that you're riding on when hundreds of feet above the ground.
User avatar
Sinrus
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Rosa Vernal » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:04 pm

So... Book 1, page 82 has that circle they're talking about.

And with the skull being there, I'm pretty sure that it's Wanda, not just "resembling" her like the Wiki says.
RIP, Grandma. <3
Mar '29 - Oct '10
User avatar
Rosa Vernal
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:21 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:17 pm

Yucca wrote:I don't know why everyone seems so certain that GK will lose this. Janis, in perfect prophet form, said that after the battle there will be "disarray", and Parson should be encouraged to step up.

Well one thing you have to ask, "what would help push parson to leading again?"... when you take stanely into account, even if Parson wanted to lead, he would not let him.
Two things would help push Parson back to leading the fight for GK... a complete and utter failure at the battle of jetstone, or the loss of Ansom and other good candidates for chief warlord (such as ossomer)

A massive loss for GK, might be enough to make stanely start rethinking Ansom as chief warlord and thus make him more willing to consider Parson to head off planning if he wanted to... Hell Stanely might realize that with a decypted chief warlord, the real chief warlord is in effect wanda, and that her decisions are interfering with his conquest (if Gk looses wanda will be the one to blame the most since she left the chief warlord behind and dropped her guard against jillian)... thus he would find it necessary to assign a living warlord to lead, and that leaves only parson

as for the loss of the current chiefwarlord...
The loss of Ansom, via death is unlikely since he has been left behind... however, if Wanda were to find a loop hole within the rules, such as being able to use ossomer or a decrypted Slately to start a new side (officially they would rule but they obey wanda; hence the loop hole) and thus go rouge on stanely, or if wand awere to turn and join Jillian and faq, then GK would loose all of it's candidates for chief warlord leaving only parson... this would also be a scenerio that might cause a shit load of disarray.... though the downside to this possiblity is that without wanda's army, it might make it harder for Parson to fight enough to "break the world"; though on the flipside it would make it more interesting to see how he does it without the massive army to start with
User avatar
MonteCristo
YOTD Supporter!
YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:48 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Yucca » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:36 pm

Watsit Hoohow wrote:Gobwin Knob is going to lose somewhere in this. Janis predicts disarray. A total victory for Gobwin Knob in no way implies disarray. A very costly victory might, but then, very costly victories are so for a reason. GK is going to come out of this for the worse, and it'll be something bad enough to encourage Stanley to put Parson in command.


I wouldn't disagree with this. I'd change "somewhere" to "something", but I wouldn't disagree.

Watsit Hoohow wrote:You're kidding, right? Losing Wanda would not just suck, it'd put a ginormous dent in GK, considering that Decryption is one of its greatest advantages. Not only would that wreck his momentum (especially assuming the decrypted dust if Wanda falls), it would embolden his royal enemies, since Toolism would be "proven" false. Parson would be encouraged to step up, most certainly if Wanda chose or was forced to stop working for GK. Not just because it'd be such a tremendous setback, but because Ansom (his choice for Chief Warlord) would go with her.


In the first place, we don't know if Ansom would go with her. It's never been said if uncroaked outlive the caster that uncroaked them. The same can be said of Decrypted. The Archons are the "special unit" of he Arkendish, and yet we see them on other sides. The Archons are completely loyal to Charlie, but we've seen that they can rationalize working against him. Losing Wanda would mean no more *new* decrypted, but it wouldn't necessarily mean that all the ones they have go poof.

You seem to be using disarray to mean "any setback that would cause a change in plans", but (in Parson's words) plans fail. The GK army at Spacerock falls. Stanley gets angry. Parson goes "hmmmm" and come up with a new plan. New plan (production orders, movement orders, etc) gets implemented the same turn. That's hardly disarray. In fact, Parson no doubt has a contingency plan worked out already.

Disarray means panic, it means no one knows what to do or what the situation is. To cause disarray something has to be so unexpected you can't properly react to it.

Just my opinion, but anytime a writer starts talking about prophesy, you can be sure that words were chosen very carefully.

Watsit Hoohow wrote:You'd be hard-pressed to get more disarray than somehow losing Wanda and/or the rest of the force Gobwin Knob has up there. What would you qualify as "disarray"?


The Titans detect such a large confluence of love (something that is more powerful than them) in one place and decide it must be destroyed in order to protect themselves. They take physical shape and begin systematically exterminating everything on Erf that can feel love.

Patently ridiculous, but completely unexpected. Would cause disarray. (to be clear: I'm not predicting that this will happen)

dl;dr I'm using a more strict definition of "disarray"
Yucca
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:05 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby splintermute » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:51 pm

Sinrus wrote:
valce wrote:Wanda has a decrypted unit on each of the dwagons, in prime positions to deal a killing blow.


There's a slight problem with destroying something that you're riding on when hundreds of feet above the ground.


Not if they can land on pillowy marshmallow-soft creatures.

Regarding the disarray, knowing Stanley, the only event that could lead to Parson being put in charge are the death or conversion of Ansom, Ossomer AND Sylvia and maybe Vurp? (and whatever other lvl 2+ warlords GK might have - we know that GK should have plenty of at least lvl 1 warlords, since they have plenty of lvl 2+ cities).
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby CelebrenIthil » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:54 pm

Undead Prince wrote:
Every so often, the author makes it clear there's a message behind their work, of course. Other times, a good case can be made one way or another. But unless it's pretty transparent, it cannot be claimed to be final, so I'd say CelebrenIthil's call to moderation is not an appeal to mental indolence.


Well, I didn't make any "final" claims, and it was CelebrenIthil who conjectured that the author "cannot possibly mean" what I thought might be, and therefore I should abstain from my speculations. To me, frankly, it wasn't a call to moderation, but rather some kind of thought policing. Not an entirely constructive approach to a free discussion, IMHO.

Anyway, I suggest we get on with constructive posting and not waste any more time on empty exchanges.


Oh no, that part where I said "You are free to see has much meaning as you want into things", you see, wasn't only put there for shows.
I'm sorry you felt threatened, but BLANDCorporatio got my intent right, I only wished to call for a little moderation in your focus on things.

Feel free to make as much mental gymnastics and other intellectual self-indulgence you want from what you see in the comic.
I only wished to remind a mere human author really has a limit to the amount and dept of symbols/links/foreshadowing/connections he can infuse into every single detail of what he does. (And the artist has similar limitations in regards to illustrating the comic)

Now, everyone likes to try and discover hidden meanings and pet clever fan theories- often it's the most fun part. And I know a bunch of instances were the fan theories were much more interesting that what the author did meant when the story unfolded.
By all means, don't take it badly.
"Wanda's Decrypted crest" = skullflower. In this origin picture, Wanda is depicted as wearing a similar flower to the one pictured on her crest, and in a similar fashion. The only difference being, instead of Wanda's head, there's a skull. Ergo, Wanda is viewed as a corpse
is a fine theory. Just remember it is spawned by your own personal logic and it might be too bold to claim it as true- at least before more proof is brought. But who knows, maybe you are completely right!
Otherwise, for now things are always debatable: like I told before, confronted with the very same data (Wanda having a skull with a flower as a crest), I do not come to the same conclusion that it means she thinks she is a corpse. I'd need more concrete evidence.

But yeah, I guess, I'm a bit on the scientific pragmatism side. Theories are fine, but they are only that, theory- as amusing and clever they are- unless proven. :)

Now, I'm sorry for the annoyance I caused you. I truly didn't mean to.
And far from me the thought of ever policing anyone on here. (with whatever deluded sense of authority I might think I would have on this part of the internet) :mrgreen:

I'm merely amused and eternally surprised by "how far people tend to dig" (err I translated this from my native language I hope this expression works in English too) when it comes to the comic.
My Dwagons!
Red: Kelvin Yellow: Newton Green: Langmuir Blue: Ampere Purple: Decibel Pink: Pascal
build6 wrote:It's true, we're all gay for Tramennis, even if we're straight :-)
User avatar
CelebrenIthil
Tool + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:40 pm
Location: Under my hair

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ff6shadow, Keighvin1 and 14 guests