Book 2 – Page 17

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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Llord_Droll » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:01 am

It's a setup.

Wanda wasted her request for Jillian to turn as a joke. I think that Jillian is going to ask Wanda to turn next strip.
"Why do you think I came back for you?" With a silent panel of them staring at each other, and then they turn away from each other before they can continue talking.

They continue and Wanda mentions Jillian telling Duncan off screen that she has a charm that protects her from Wanda - WHILE Wanda is listening. A warning to Wanda not to force a fight.

Wanda thinks this is interesting, probably even believes it? The part about her needing uncroakables really seems like a weak cover.

The caster we know might be here with Jillian is Vanna the turnamancer. Jillian has planned and will royally succeed in capturing herself a couple of casters for FAQ next strip. She is happy that Jack is there as a bonus.

Why will it work? I think Wanda wants to be captured - but that is difficult for her Dom side to sub to even though I think it is exciting her (as the best explanation for otherwise horrible tactics).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Casander » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:34 am

Who has the power in the Jillian-Wanda relationship? The one that doesn't need it the most, or who can convince that other that the other needs it more.

So Jillian is flustered with the calm pointing out that she did choose. She wants the relationship to continue, and even risks giving up some power in their relationship by admitting it. But can Wanda be the cool, in control Dominatrix and explain why, in her moment of greatest fury, she struck everyone around Jillian, but not Jillian herself?

Can she be utterly cruel to Jillian, as Jillian wants, without revealing that she truly cares about Jillian, and therefore won't push her too hard? I think a part of Jillian wants a Wanda who doesn't care, who is willing to kill and decrypt Jillian, utterly controlling her. And another part that just wants to play with limits, not being pushed beyond safety and sanity.

Looking at the conversation, Wanda seems to be the one more sticking to her strategy, whatever it is, and Jillian is the more outwardly rattled, and reacting rather than driving the conversation.

The two of them are piecing through just how much they each are still in need of each other, both reluctant to admit it, for different reasons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby splintermute » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:11 am

Maybe Wanda was telling the truth about why she didn't attack Jillian at GK. Perhaps the GK air defenses let you do a certain amount of damage, allocated amongst units at the caster's discretion - Wanda had the option of ignoring Jillian and croaking all the other air units, or wasting the spell by focusing it on a level 9 damage sponge, possibly killing it, or possibly only injuring it. If that was the case, she made the right decision.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:54 am

Beholden wrote:Cracking one... but a bit of an anticlimax.


Yeah, but we're getting some more buildup.

And that "But you did choose" panel is exquisite. Wanda. Is. Dis. Pleased.

Hopefully if Jillian still feels for Wanda she won't roll in the archon hit squad. Looks like megalogwiffs don't like the look of dwagons though!

Cant shake the feeling that something is missing from this page however.


A third party observer, perhaps?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:04 am

Lawd wrote:In art, I really like every panel except panel 10. Horrible profile that seems just wrong. The megalogwif and dwagon circling 'round each other is nice. Some interesting wuestions rais'd. And we see, once more, Jillian's strong point (oversized weaponry, that sword never looked more massive).


Yeah, it's clear that the Titans have played Warhammer.

One thing, though. Jillian is straddling a seat over 3 feet wide. If that's what she's used to, shouldn't she be significantly bow legged when she walks?


EDIT: In my opinion, Wanda has more character in the last few pages (visualy). She seems more... alive now.

[/quote]

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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Llelldorin » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:28 am

What's that thing under the blue dwagon's wing in the first panel? I initially registered it as Ansom's carpet, which confused me badly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Kaed » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:01 am

ftl wrote:I think you're missing the point. Erfworld is NOT a game, it's a world with game-like physics. I remember having the same thoughts back earlier "why are the characters bothering with this messy relationship and life business when they could focus on just the strategy and WIN"! But it's not like that. Wanda's relationship with Jillian seems like it's more important to her than just winning, and that's quite normal, really - just look at real life, are there really that many people for whom their day job and their career is more important than their loved ones? How is that "immaturity"?


Okay no. I'm not missing the point here, I think you are missing mine. Let's move off to the side for a moment though, and bring up the 'Wanda is a GK unit" thing. As far as I can tell, Loyalty of a unit is separate from what side they are currently on. You can turn captured units, and your own can betray you if their loyalty score is low enough. If Wanda is not a GK unit, then who has been paying for her upkeep all this time? Clearly she has yet to disband due to missing upkeep. And Stanley has threatened her and Parson with disbanding before too. I think she is official a GK unit right now, loyalties notwithstanding.

Now understand that Jillian and Wanda are have some kind of crazy love triangle with Jack, but that isn't the point. The arguement that people can consider their love life and family more important than their jobs is only valid when one is going to a job for their own benefit. When there are two opposing armies relying on Jillian(Jetstone) and Wanda(GK) to turn the tide of battle, and instead they both run off to chat to each other and to hell with the previous battle plans... well, that's treason even in the real world.

Someone here is about to turn or die (then Decrypt and turn if it's Jillian). Someone, Gobwin Knob or Jetstone, is going to be screwed over here because they placed trust in the wrong Croakamancer or Barbarian Queen. That is why this is irresponsible.
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Dug » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:05 am

I have seen something that has caused me to un-lurk; I need to say this...

I am absolutely loving the artwork in Book 2. The closeups are awesome and so emotive. Wanda in panel 6 in Page 17 and the one of Jillian in the penultimate panel of Page 16 have lept out of the page at me. The writing has always been good but the artwork is really coming alive of late.

Keep it coming.


Also...

Yeah, it's clear that the Titans have played Warhammer.


Or almost any fantasy manga. Or played Exalted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Camouflage » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:20 am

Llelldorin wrote:What's that thing under the blue dwagon's wing in the first panel? I initially registered it as Ansom's carpet, which confused me badly.


That's Ossomer on said carpet.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Raza » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:01 am

dan2178 wrote:Uh, where is Jillian not monogamous?

When she lived in FAQ, it appears that she had a relationship with Wanda. There is no evidence that she cheated on her. When FAQ fell, Jillian must have assumed that Wanda got croaked. She didn't realize Wanda was still alive until the first time she was captured by GK.

When she was a mercenary she occasionally hooked up with clients but not in a long-term fashion. There is no evidence that she was in two relationships at the same time.

When she agreed to join the RCC as a mercenary she had romantic tension with Ansom but she held off getting into a relationship even though there was mutual attraction between the two. She was involved with Wanda when she got captured but that wasn't voluntary. Plus, she wasn't in a relationship at the time as she didn't begin her relationship with Ansom until after she broke free of Wanda's influence. Later, she tried to turn Wanda but that wasn't to rekindle a relationship. It was because she still cared about her even though she preferred Ansom.

After she heard that Ansom got croaked, she and Vinny got into a relationship. This makes perfect sense on both sides. Jillian was Ansom's lover and Vinny was his best friend (Vinny also may have had a crush on Ansom). They bonded from mutual sorrow. It appears that the news of Ansom being decrypted may have ended the relationship.

At no point was Jillian in a relationship with two different people at the same time. It is unfair to criticize Jillian over that and her love life isn't exactly abnormal. Plus, I can't see how Jillian can be seen as "betraying" Wanda. Wanda sold out FAQ (of course, Jillian doesn't know that) and tried to control Jillian via spells. Despite Wanda trying to mind control Jillian, Jillian still was willing to risk her life to save Wanda. I can't see any reason how Jillian is in the wrong here.

You're trying way too hard to fit it all into our rigid western 'relationship' model of intimacy when there hasn't been any positive evidence of her using that. It is not the default, and you're sprinkling formal get-together and break-up points all over the comic in places where we never saw them happen to make a messy shape fit your square expectations.

I'm also not sure that her relationship with Wanda has resembled a classic romance at any point, before perhaps this comic right here where it needs mending in a way very similar to one. BDSM relationships can be very intimate without being sexual/romantic. Of course, that off and by itself already does not fit the Normal Relationship Model, and people that try to force it often get confused/angsty about the way they interact.

Anyway, it's not critique of Jillian, or a moral position in any way. Jillian's a chaotic, rule-breaking character, and this would only enhance that.

Joe22c. wrote:
Shush. Monogamy is a product of our culture, not a universal one-true-moral-code to intimacy.


*cough* many species of birds practice monogamy. It is, therefore, not uniquely a product of human culture as you would so falsely claim.

Lol, strawman.

I never said 'uniquely', and that difference is enough to make your evidence non-contradictory.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby HandofShadows » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:16 am

Seems like my guesses about the relationships between Wanda and Jillian from way back in the middle of Book 1 has been fairly accurate. :mrgreen:

Something is going to happen to make things go south here, but I don't think it will be enough to destroy the relationship. Rebuilding it will take some time though. Not many people seem to be worrying about Jetston. I guess they think it's either dead meat already or they really don't like Jetston very much.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:03 am

Phwaaaoah! Looks at the size of a Megalo compared to blue dwagon. The best size comparison so far. And I love the facial expressions on the mounts of our two leading ladies. Plated Red and Megalogwiff eyeballing contest!

Overall a nice comic. The art is very, very nice on this page, and I like Jillian and Wanda's heart to heart so far. I'm not sure who is scoring more points in this particular battle of hearts though... except in the last panel. Wanda turning away...

And interesting - Wanda slipped in a bit about Jillian surrendering (with Ansom as the carrot) and it appears it doesn't register with Jillian as a actual offer (or she isn't interested at that point in acknowledging it), but more as a personal jab from Wanda.

ShinyBrownCoat wrote:What was the fiction Wanda refers to? Did I miss it from an earlier strip? Something about Wanda not being able to harm Jillian?


An off screen bit of conversation between Jillian and her Chief Warlord. He presumably voiced his concerns about Jillian going off alone with Wanda, Jillian fobbed him off with a story about having a charm that defends her from Wanda.

Duncan, not being a fool, has his doubts...

BCCroaker wrote:It's not the multiple partners that irritates, it's the way Jillian thinks she can pick and choose and make the rules.


Huh? How is she doing that?

Jatopian wrote:Maybe it's just late, but I don't really get what Wanda's saying in the last panel.


I'll probably be ninja'd, but she is saying to Jillian "I focused the attack on the other units with you because they were flyers I needed and could uncroak, you and your Gwiffon were not" - of course it is a lie, a weak one, and they both know it.
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:05 am

AllPurposeNerd wrote:I want an apology from all you haters who said crap about Xin's Wanda being ugly and unexpressive.

Image

If looks could croak, the war would be over.


Here, here.

Well I didn't know there were that many haters, but Wanda's expressions are very nice this strip.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Lord Kasavin » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:41 am

Right now, I'd say Jillian has the upperhand. She just pointed out that Wanda went to extra measures to make sure she didn't harm Jillian back at GK, even after Jillian dealt a crushing blow to GK forces (and Wanda's psyche). Jillian basically said "You can't fool me, I know you aren't going to hurt me."

The obvious retort for Wanda, however, is decryption. This time, she really can kill Jillian and still have her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby SteveMB » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:01 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:An off screen bit of conversation between Jillian and her Chief Warlord. He presumably voiced his concerns about Jillian going off alone with Wanda, Jillian fobbed him off with a story about having a charm that defends her from Wanda.

Well, that depends on what the meaning of "charm" is....
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby Raza » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:01 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:Right now, I'd say Jillian has the upperhand. She just pointed out that Wanda went to extra measures to make sure she didn't harm Jillian back at GK, even after Jillian dealt a crushing blow to GK forces (and Wanda's psyche). Jillian basically said "You can't fool me, I know you aren't going to hurt me."

The obvious retort for Wanda, however, is decryption. This time, she really can kill Jillian and still have her.

I think that's a tactical interpretation of a personal situation. Mine was that she's saying 'You know you still care about me, too. Let's not pretend otherwise.".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:26 pm

Sinrus wrote:Someone said that Wanda seems to have come to life, and I know exactly where it happened: First panel bottom row. That's the first time I saw any real emotion from her in this book.


There is an earlier example of Wanda slipping and showing an emotion. Last panel bottom row. However, I think that may just prove your point. We are supposed to see cold emotionless Wanda so that her emotional reactions stand out stronger.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby nerf-dweller » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:38 pm

Ah, Wanda is acting the a jilted lover. I'm surprised I didn't see it before. Her motivations and actions are making a lot more sense now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby nerf-dweller » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:41 pm

ShinyBrownCoat wrote:What was the fiction Wanda refers to? Did I miss it from an earlier strip? Something about Wanda not being able to harm Jillian?


No. It was a question left unanswered (and perhaps unasked) after Wanda uses all of the GK's air defenses vs Jullians forces in Book 1.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 17

Postby nerf-dweller » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:54 pm

Jatopian wrote:Maybe it's just late, but I don't really get what Wanda's saying in the last panel.


Jullians is either bluffing, or her charm vs Wanda is the fact that Wanda still care for her very deeply. Wanda is just making a feeble excuse trying to deny it (to Juliians and to herself.)

And it may be that Wanda is as lonely in here own way as Jullian is. Wanda is surrounded by subject who see and treat here as a virtually a titan. And Wanda is surrounded by adoring, and more importantly unquestioning and obedient Decrypted. No one to treat and relate to them as themselves. I'm really looking forward to next week's comic.
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