The Puppetmaster

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The Puppetmaster

Postby Zerohour » Sun May 24, 2009 5:12 am

I'm not that good at expressing this, so if you have any questions/comments/corrections/clarifications/glaring errors you would like to voice, I would appreciate it.


I think there's a deeper level to the Erfworld conflict than just the war. I think the Magic Kingdom is the driving force behind everything. Stanley's rise to Overlord, the Fall of Faq, Everything.

Their purpose? To bring about Peace, regardless of the expense.

There are several pieces of information and evidence that can be tied together to piece together how they did this.

One of the key pieces of this is Faq's Predictamancer. While this is pretty hazy, because we have yet to see a Predictamancer/Predictamancy in action, there are still several important points the predictamancer raises.

-Where are they? It's been stated that casters are valuable units and are normally captured/converted, but we haven't seen the Predictamancer anywhere on Stanley's side.

-Loyalty/Duty. A unit on a aside has a duty to inform their commander of things that will cause the destruction of their side. This is the point where things get especially fuzzy, since, as stated before, we don't know the specifics of Predictamancy, nor do we know which prediction came first. It is possible that the prediction for Faq's fall came before Wanda's, and if the predictamancer could see enough to know what wuld happen, it would conflict with their duty to tell Wanda


-The fact that the Gobwins rebelled when Stanley left is too convenient to be coincidence. However, as stated, loyalty/duty should prevent Stanley from setting this up. In addition, Wanda expected Stanely to lose when he attacked Faq, which implies that he would have trouble conquering Faq, and would have depleted his forces, which would make retaking Gobwin Knob difficult. It's true that units heal at start of turn, but there would still be a decent amount of units lost. Retaking the city wold be a bit daunting, and Stanley, if he had been the mastermind behind overthrowing Saline, I think he would have been a bit more cautious with those odds.


As for how this would attain peace, and why this was all necessary, the reason for this is the royal noble system. It's been stated that in addition to being stronger and levelling faster, nobles can occasionally break off and for their own side. As far as we know, this is a unique trait of royals, so the same issue will not arise should an Overlord conquer the world.

One of the indicators that the Magic Kingdom was behind this was the conversation between Sizemore and the Grand Abby, she seems to know a bit more about the battle for Gobwin Knob than she should have, and while this could be marked off as knowing what the spell would likely result in, or using Eyemancy to observe the conflict, the fact that she thinks Parson could make Peace in Erfworld a reality implies that it was part of a greater scheme.

Of course, given the response Royals normally have when a non-royal takes power, it would be a bit difficult to create this scenario, so they need a little edge, one 500,000 spell later, and they get the perfect warlord, one who comes from outside the game, and isn't limited by the mindset that's been developed since the titans built the world.


The Theory/TImeline

-The predictamancer is a member of/controlled by the Magic Kingdom.

-The predictamancer informs Wanda that she will become attuned to an Arkentool, whihc leads to her getting STanely to attack Faq.

-Banhammer asks if Faq will fall, and the Predictamancer tells him yes. Jillian gets popped.

-Jillian goes off an a mercenary mission, and Stanley invades. The Predictamancer escapes to the Magic Kingdom or vanishes through some other means to prevents inquiry about why this happened.

-Wanda, wanting to find her Arkentool, persuades Stanley to quest for the remaining Arkentools.

-Stanely croaks several royal units in his efforts to get the Arkentools, and the Royal Crown Coalition is formed.

-The Royal crown Coalition starts to conquer the other cities under Stanley's control, and his ability to fight back dwindles.

-Stanley is reduced to the capital city, and is forced into a corner, in order to salvage the war, he spends 500,00 to summon the perfect warlord, aka: Parson Gotti.

-Events proceed as in the comic.

-With Wanda's Decrypting ability nd the return of the Dwagons, plus the complete destruction of the RCC, Stanley's side is probably the strongest side in the nearby area. Charlescomm and Transylvito are probably the only factions without crippling losses.

-Stanley's forces begin reclaiming their previously controlled cities and acquiring the cities of the weakened sides in the area. (Probably the filler between end of Book One and beginning of Book Two)

-Book Two starts, with Stanley's side the dominant power in the region. At this point he is recognized as a significant threat and that his goals are probably world domination. Parson will be recognized as a genius tactician and will be accounted for when dealing with their forces. While still a dominant force, other factions will be aware of Parson's tactics and will try to mimic/account for them. The real war begins, since victory against other forces will be much more difficult.

So, what say you?
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Bobby Archer » Sun May 24, 2009 10:35 am

I think there are a few faults in your logic. Not to say that the Hippiemancers or the Casters couldn't be pulling the strings behind everything (I love a good conspiracy), but a few of your points aren't terribly strong and are going on little/no support.

It wasn't stated that casters are usually captured, just that capture is usually only done for casters as other units are not, generally, worth the effort as they suffer from low Loyalty. Even if Stanley was trying to capture all the casters in Faq, its not that far out that he'd have to croak one or two. Right now, out of 3 casters we know of in Faq at its fall, Stanley captured 2. This seems like a very high number, especially when you consider Stanley doesn't take the long view of things.

Even if the Predictamancer knew that telling Wanda about her fate would lead to the destruction of Faq, she wouldn't necessarily be blocked from telling Wanda. If the fall of Faq was Fated, it would be hopeless to prevent, in which case she wouldn't have to try.

We don't know that the fall of Faq and the death of Saline happened at the same time. There's a lot of speculation that they did, but there's no evidence. In any case, Stanley himself likely masterminded the uprising of the Gobwins to put himself on the throne. Also, if GK fell, Stanley and those with him would have become barbarians. Therefore, they'd heal at the beginning of their turn, and unallied barbarians come before Gobwin Knob. So, Stanley's units would be at full health, compared to injured Gobwins. And Stanley hasn't been cautious about a single thing we've seen, I don't think he'd have worried overmuch about his ability to retake GK.

Yes, the Grand Abby seems to know a lot about what's going on, but we don't know what kind of pull she has outside of the Hippiemancers. And other than her assertion that Parson will bring peace to GK, we don't have any connection between the Magic Kingdom and the events surrounding GK. And, seeing as many of the other caster types rely on combat for their disciplines to have any use, it's questionable whether the Magic Kingdom as a whole would want peace.
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Darkside007 » Sun May 24, 2009 3:48 pm

Also, massive problem;

The Magic Kingdom seems to fund itself through mercenary work. Peace is bad for mercenaries.
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Mikalyaran » Sun May 24, 2009 8:07 pm

What in the comic suggests that the magic kingdom is funded by mercenary work?
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Darkside007 » Sun May 24, 2009 9:07 pm

The fact that they sold a spell to a side about to get it's face kicked in? If they didn't do that with some frequency, the other sides might get a little cranky.
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Mikalyaran » Mon May 25, 2009 12:18 am

Thats not mercenary work. Thats run of the mill commerce. You could argue to more arms dealing but even that isn't mercenary work.
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Zerohour » Mon May 25, 2009 2:11 am

It wasn't stated that casters are usually captured, just that capture is usually only done for casters as other units are not, generally, worth the effort as they suffer from low Loyalty. Even if Stanley was trying to capture all the casters in Faq, its not that far out that he'd have to croak one or two. Right now, out of 3 casters we know of in Faq at its fall, Stanley captured 2. This seems like a very high number, especially when you consider Stanley doesn't take the long view of things.


True. Still, croaking a Caster would likely be used if they were especially difficult/dangerous, such as Sizemore and his golem or Wanda with an army of Uncroaked. Somehow, i don't see seeing the future as especially dangerous, unless they trained in combat and can use it to predict enemy attacks.

Even if the Predictamancer knew that telling Wanda about her fate would lead to the destruction of Faq, she wouldn't necessarily be blocked from telling Wanda. If the fall of Faq was Fated, it would be hopeless to prevent, in which case she wouldn't have to try.


False, we already know it' possible to change fate. The example given is pairing Mathamancers with Predictamancers, but that still shows that they can change fate.

We don't know that the fall of Faq and the death of Saline happened at the same time. There's a lot of speculation that they did, but there's no evidence. In any case, Stanley himself likely masterminded the uprising of the Gobwins to put himself on the throne. Also, if GK fell, Stanley and those with him would have become barbarians. Therefore, they'd heal at the beginning of their turn, and unallied barbarians come before Gobwin Knob. So, Stanley's units would be at full health, compared to injured Gobwins. And Stanley hasn't been cautious about a single thing we've seen, I don't think he'd have worried overmuch about his ability to retake GK.


True, but the loyalty/duty should prevent Stanley from setting that up. The only reason why Wanda got Stanley to invade was because she thought he would lose.


@darkside: Cities generate money, and the Magic Kingdom has at least 9.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F011.jpg
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Bobby Archer » Mon May 25, 2009 2:55 am

Zerohour wrote:True. Still, croaking a Caster would likely be used if they were especially difficult/dangerous, such as Sizemore and his golem or Wanda with an army of Uncroaked. Somehow, i don't see seeing the future as especially dangerous, unless they trained in combat and can use it to predict enemy attacks.

That's a pretty useful tactical advantage. The Predictamancer likely didn't give much of any of a bonus to troops she was leading, but Predicting enemy attacks likely made sure she was making the best of whatever troops she had [/devils advocate] In any case, all we know is that, as of the start of the comic, Stanley had no predictamancer. There are a few possible reasons for this:
-Knowing what was coming, she escaped Faq (which would require a relatively low Loyalty on the Predictamancer's part)
-She was croaked when Faq fell.
-She was captured, but later disbanded or killed (which I think may be the most likely. After all, if she Predicted the fall of 10 of Stanley's cities, I doubt he'd react well)

Zerohour wrote:False, we already know it' possible to change fate. The example given is pairing Mathamancers with Predictamancers, but that still shows that they can change fate.

Where is this example? I remember one about pairing Mathamancers and Luckamancers from when Parson and Sizemore were discussing the Mathamancy bracer http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F054.jpg . We, as yet, have no idea how immutable Erfworlds's Fate is. Also, all that is required is for the Predictamancer not to act is for her to believe it is hopeless to change. And if she had a better idea, King Banhammer would likely have taken an action more proactive than to order an heir popped. An heir just ensures that the side can continue if he dies and/or the capital falls.

Zerohour wrote:True, but the loyalty/duty should prevent Stanley from setting that up. The only reason why Wanda got Stanley to invade was because she thought he would lose.

Loyalty and Duty are not absolute and static. Wanda is apparently not Loyal to Stanley at all, just to Fate http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F147.jpg . It appears to vary from unit to unit.

Zerohour wrote:@darkside: Cities generate money, and the Magic Kingdom has at least 9.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F011.jpg

I don't think those are cities. They appear to be clearings like the type that we see Sizemore and Janis in later on that page. The largest one, in the center, is certainly Portal Park and that's no city.

In the end, I don't think there's any actual evidence to seriously support this theory. There also isn't anything to directly refute the basic idea. There's certainly more than meets the eye going on in the Magic Kingdom (especially where the Foolamancers hang out), but I tend to doubt that they're at the center of a grand conspiracy to end war on Erfworld. Amongst the other issues, I don't see motive. Outisde the Hippiemancers, no one benefits from (and some are hurt by) peace.
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Zerohour » Tue May 26, 2009 10:21 am

Zerohour wrote:True. Still, croaking a Caster would likely be used if they were especially difficult/dangerous, such as Sizemore and his golem or Wanda with an army of Uncroaked. Somehow, i don't see seeing the future as especially dangerous, unless they trained in combat and can use it to predict enemy attacks.


That's a pretty useful tactical advantage. The Predictamancer likely didn't give much of any of a bonus to troops she was leading, but Predicting enemy attacks likely made sure she was making the best of whatever troops she had [/devils advocate] In any case, all we know is that, as of the start of the comic, Stanley had no predictamancer. There are a few possible reasons for this:
-Knowing what was coming, she escaped Faq (which would require a relatively low Loyalty on the Predictamancer's part)
-She was croaked when Faq fell.
-She was captured, but later disbanded or killed (which I think may be the most likely. After all, if she Predicted the fall of 10 of Stanley's cities, I doubt he'd react well)


True, there are a lot of different possibilities for what could have happened, but I already said that was one of the weak points.

Where is this example? I remember one about pairing Mathamancers and Luckamancers from when Parson and Sizemore were discussing the Mathamancy bracer http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F054.jpg . We, as yet, have no idea how immutable Erfworlds's Fate is. Also, all that is required is for the Predictamancer not to act is for her to believe it is hopeless to change. And if she had a better idea, King Banhammer would likely have taken an action more proactive than to order an heir popped. An heir just ensures that the side can continue if he dies and/or the capital falls.


That's the one I was looking for. And while we don't know how malleable fate is, we know that it can be changed.


Zerohour wrote:True, but the loyalty/duty should prevent Stanley from setting that up. The only reason why Wanda got Stanley to invade was because she thought he would lose.


Loyalty and Duty are not absolute and static. Wanda is apparently not Loyal to Stanley at all, just to Fate http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F147.jpg . It appears to vary from unit to unit.


Turned units have a notoriously low Loyalty rating, unless spells are used to raise it, and Wanda isn't under the influence of any spells. Wanda was turned, while STanley is Plaidside, popped and promoted.

Once again, we don't have enough information to determine one way or another.


Zerohour wrote:@darkside: Cities generate money, and the Magic Kingdom has at least 9.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F011.jpg


I don't think those are cities. They appear to be clearings like the type that we see Sizemore and Janis in later on that page. The largest one, in the center, is certainly Portal Park and that's no city.

In the end, I don't think there's any actual evidence to seriously support this theory. There also isn't anything to directly refute the basic idea. There's certainly more than meets the eye going on in the Magic Kingdom (especially where the Foolamancers hang out), but I tend to doubt that they're at the center of a grand conspiracy to end war on Erfworld. Amongst the other issues, I don't see motive. Outisde the Hippiemancers, no one benefits from (and some are hurt by) peace.


They say that they are close to Portal Park, and if you look where the speech bubble originates, it's in the middle of nowhere. You could be right, but we just don't know.


In the end, I don't think there's any actual evidence to seriously support this theory. There also isn't anything to directly refute the basic idea. There's certainly more than meets the eye going on in the Magic Kingdom (especially where the Foolamancers hang out), but I tend to doubt that they're at the center of a grand conspiracy to end war on Erfworld. Amongst the other issues, I don't see motive. Outisde the Hippiemancers, no one benefits from (and some are hurt by) peace.


How exactly are they hurt? Erfworld is a world designed for war, so obviously they are meant to fight, but it isn't necessary for them to fight, farming is one way to earn money for upkeep, which shows that fighting isn't a fundamental thing in Erfworld.

Sure, they could end up like this guy: http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/03/28/warbot_001/
but we just don't know.
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Re: The Puppetmaster

Postby Nebulious » Tue May 26, 2009 11:59 am

The correct term is dollamancer.
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