Book 2 – Page 19

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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Sinrus » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:23 am

silverdevilboy wrote:I'm going back to the arkenhat theory. I still think wanda will turn.

Damn, I thought we were done with that.

splintermute wrote:I don't think they are circling. I think that ever since page 17, panel 2, where they were getting into position, they have been hovering in a pretty stable position next to each other, with Wanda on the dwagon army side, and Jillian on the gwiffon army side, and their mounts either pressed against each other, or pressed against a paper-thin hex barrier, with their faces in each other's naughty bits in a way that's clearly making them both uncomfortable.

My opinion is that the hex boundary is the walls of Spacerock, and that Wanda and Jillian are both in the same hex, along with the dwagons and megalos led by Ossomer and Duncan, respectively. The rest of GK's fliers are hanging back outside of the city and thus in a different hex, which is why the veiled archons haven't been spotted. There has been no engagement yet because all of the units are led.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby atteSmythe » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:14 pm

Jillian can't leave the city, and her and Wanda's mount are touching. It seems pretty clear to me that Wanda's forces are in the city hex. The top-down view on Page 17, IMO, makes it pretty clear that Wanda's not in the hex alone.

This page shows the bulk of her forces, including archons, apparently still beyond the walls, though possibly just withdrawn from the parley. That'd still leave her an Ossomer with detection chances, at the least (probably other warlords on the other mounts, but we don't really know). But that's not why I find it implausible.

Slately nor his sons knew, either, and they'd have to have been in the same hex as those veiled units for at least a turn - while expecting a force including a Foolamancer. There'd have to be a really good explanation for their inattentiveness.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Cyanshine » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:54 pm

Oooooh, didn't see that coming, good one !
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby rughat » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:43 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:So it starts with Wanda, and then before that it starts with the prediction. I don't know about a conspiracy of casters, I think they were honest Predictions. But I do wonder what's up, and if Wanda's comment "[This world] wised for you" to Parson isn't literally true. Some thing is going on, but I don't think the driving force is the casters or anyone in the Magic Kingdom.


I don't know - imagine if the Predictamancers in the Magic Kingdom said "We want Erfworld to change. How can we do that?" What answer would they get? It sounds like they would have been told to influence the actions of this simple Croakamancer in an isolated backwater kingdom. If you were going to target someone for a self-fulfilling prophecy, Wanda would be a good person to target. Tell her "you have a great destiny", and she'll make sure her fate is fulfilled. If you can convince her your desires are part of her destiny...

I wonder if that Predictamancer may have been making a younger, more impressionable Wanda into a tool.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Toolbreaker » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:50 pm

[delurk]

I'd just like to throw out a comment in regards to the discussion about whether or not the parley is in the hex or at the hex boundary.

I would say that the parley is quite solidly within the city hex. Specifically within the air zone. Only the unlead units on either side would be forced to engage units on the opposing side and I don't think there are any actual unlead stacks on either side (in the air zone at any rate). I recall that a simialar sitiuation happened at TBfGK when Ansom met with Parson / Bogroll to discuss surender terms. Combat ceased at that time because there were no unlead stacks adjacent to opposing unlead stacks within the hex or city zone.

There may be rules or game mechanics in regards to a parley as well but I don't think they've been specifically referenced yet if they even exist.

[/lurk]
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby theseus2x » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:30 pm

I kinda agree.... Wanda referred to the Battlespace like it was a zone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby dan2178 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:36 pm

silverdevilboy wrote:I'm going back to the arkenhat theory. I still think wanda will turn.


Arkenhat sounds a little drab. How about Arkenchapeau? It has a nice European flair, don't you think :)

As for predictions, I'll paraphase the eminent philosopher Mr. T and predict pain :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Sinrus » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:44 pm

dan2178 wrote:
silverdevilboy wrote:I'm going back to the arkenhat theory. I still think wanda will turn.


Arkenhat sounds a little drab. How about Arkenchapeau? It has a nice European flair, don't you think :)

As for predictions, I'll paraphase the eminent philosopher Mr. T and predict pain :lol:


NO! HATS ARE NOT TOOLS! I THOUT WE CLEARED THIS UP A WHILE AGO!

Although, the arkenberet would be pretty awesome.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby gameboy1234 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:55 pm

rughat wrote:
gameboy1234 wrote:So it starts with Wanda, and then before that it starts with the prediction. I don't know about a conspiracy of casters, I think they were honest Predictions. But I do wonder what's up, and if Wanda's comment "[This world] wised for you" to Parson isn't literally true. Some thing is going on, but I don't think the driving force is the casters or anyone in the Magic Kingdom.


I don't know - imagine if the Predictamancers in the Magic Kingdom said "We want Erfworld to change... influence the actions of this simple Croakamancer in an isolated backwater kingdom.... Wanda would be a good person to target.



Sure, it's easy to imagine, but it's simpler and easier to imagine that Wanda isn't being manipulated. It's a Prediction, a simple plot device in many fantasy stories. Like the prophecies in The Belgariad or the words of Elrond and Galadriel in Lord of the Rings. The prediction, Fate itself, is manipulating Wanda, the predictamancers and everyone else. Towards what end, or what Entity this Fate might embody, we don't yet know.

I think some folks are getting confused with Janis, who also seems to trying to further this particular Fate. Janis isn't making the prediction, she's reacting to it. The prediction says "this and this will happen if Parson leads" and Janis is trying to make sure Parson leads. But Janis didn't create that prediction, and neither did the Predictamancer who made it. Fate created it. The Predictamancer just responds to the whims of Fate when they make their predictions.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby 1Luv » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:39 pm

Is Janis even following the prediction? Or does she just wish to see the Rules of Erfworld broken in order to bring about peace?(while grooming Sizemore for more responsibility)

I want to take a stab in the dark.Maybe Sizemore gets the arkenshovel? :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Fug » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:24 pm

I think we can not assume turns will work as we expect given that Jillian has a turnomancer. True we don't know if a turnomancer can changer move order but I don't think anyone would be surprised if they could. If this is a possibility I think a reasonable Jillian strategy would be to try to capture Wanda and retreat past Hagar's Army. Otherwise fighting seems like she would loose a lot of units for Slately, whom she doesn't seem to like very much, while standing aside doesn't seem very like Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Joe Falco » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:01 pm

1Luv wrote:Is Janis even following the prediction? Or does she just wish to see the Rules of Erfworld broken in order to bring about peace?(while grooming Sizemore for more responsibility)


See, I think until we know more, I think it's safe to assume that Janis knows nothing about the prediction. I think Janis sees Parson as a potential force that can destroy the old order and bring about a new one. She believes this and wants this to happen, but I see nothing to suggest that Janis is aware of the Faq prediction in any shape or form. Hell, I think there are some of us who believe there's more to the prediction than Wanda has told Parson and if that's true, who knows how much of the prediction is there and what else it covers?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby gameboy1234 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:12 pm

Joe Falco wrote:
1Luv wrote:Is Janis even following the prediction? Or does she just wish to see the Rules of Erfworld broken in order to bring about peace?(while grooming Sizemore for more responsibility)


I see nothing to suggest that Janis is aware of the Faq prediction in any shape or form.



Oh right. Not Wanda's prediction, I'm sure Janis does not know about that. It was the one from an earlier update I was referring too.

http://www.erfworld.com/page/21/

"He’s got to command, Sizemore."

Sizemore sighed. "I know," he said. "Maggie thinks so too. But Lord Stanley is...really difficult. You don’t know."

"I think there will be an opportunity. This battle you will fight tomorrow, with Jetstone--"

Sizemore started to object. The discussion of his side’s battle plans here would be against Duty. But she raised her hand. "You don’t need to confirm it. I know. And this battle will be a turning point. I have some Predictamancy on it, among other things. There will be disarray, and you and your Thinkamancer should push him to lead."


That's the one I mean. Janis has her own Prediction(s), too.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Hiai » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:58 pm

Warning: Please don tinfoil hat before proceeding!

Now, then, here's the next conversation I see between Wanda and Jillian (uhm, obviously never going to happen, even if for length purposes alone, but hey. lol):

Jillian: You know it's not in me to back down, Wanda. I suppose it will be the very hard way, as usual. But at least I will always know that I was ready to make the sacrifice for love. It's you who turn away from love, now, for that worm Stanley and that Tool of yours. I guess you really ARE a tool, now. I guess the Wanda I thought I knew that loved to take charge is gone now.

Wanda: I really wish you would change your mind on this, Jillian. I think there IS room for love, even when compelled by destiny. If only you would give up this irrational hatred of Stanley and look at what's really going on here! Do you really think that the likes of Slately were meant to have control over us all?!?! I am following my Fate, but why do you have to oppose my fate to live out yours? Can't you see that this thing is bigger than both of us, yet still has room for our dreams as well?

Jillian: Irrational?!?!!? You say my hatred of Stanley is irrational? Slately may be a total prick, but at least he's doing what he thinks is best! Stanley is a cowardly, backstabbing little worm that has the gall to think he can rule the world, and you willingly place yourself under his feet! He murdered our people, Wanda!! I may not have liked King Banhammer much, but he was my father, and Stanley cravenly murdered him and everyone else for no other reason than that he could! Except for the ones he wanted to use, and he made you into SLAVES!! I cannot allow that montrosity to breathe another breath for any longer than I can help it! I WILL free you from him, Wanda, even if you don't want me to! Someday you will thank me!

Wanda: Ah, Jillian. Do you really think the likes of Stanley could have done such a thing by himself? Do you really think he's the evil mastermind behind some terrible plot to rule the world? He is but a Tool, as I am. As we all are. *enigmatic pause* I will do whatever it takes for the Fate of our world, Jillian. No matter how much of a sacrifice it is. But you an choose to follow fate, not oppose it. It is the only way you can win.

Jillian: This is not our Fate, Wanda! We're not some jumped-up Piker running around like a maniac! We have a choice, and you can choose to be with me and be happy!

Wanda: *preternaturally calm* Or I can choose to be with Stanley. As is your choice. To be with Stanley...to be with ME. And to be with the Titans.

Jilian: *face turning red* I could never be with Stanley! And I can't believe you could bring yourself to be, Fate or not!

Wanda: We all choose the Fate we need to follow, Jillian. Or we make it ourselves. Stanley was born to be a Tool. Whoever chooses best to wield him is only following the Fate that the Titan's laid for us.

Jillian: *with dawning comprehension* Are you trying to tell me that YOU control Stanley?!!?! Does he somehow dance to your tune, now?! Is it YOU who thinsk the Tools have to be gathered together, no matter what the cost to all of Erf?

Wanda: Stanely isn't the first Tool the Titan's placed within my hands. But he is the most...malleable.

Jillian: *with a look of horrible realization* It was YOU, wasn't it?!!? You're the one who brought Stanley to Faq! You're the one that let him destroy EVERYTHING!

Wanda: *slight look of sorrow* I didn't know what path the Titan's had set. I thought, like you, that Stanley was merely another Piker to be used. But the Titan's have decreed otherwise, and it is pointless to fight the path the Titans have laid out before us. Stanley was Chosen, just as now I have been chosen. Will you not join us in discovering the New Order, and choose to be with those who love you? I assure you, Stanley will accept you gladly, if I tell him to.

Jillian: *twists her mouth in disgust and horror, raising her sword* I thought I knew you, Wanda! I thought I loved you! But now I know that everything I felt, everything between us, was just a lie! All those times you preteneded to care about me, you were just using me like...like... STANLEY!!! *swings her sword at the Arkenpliers*

(See my thread labeled "The Stanley Fan Club" for my take on the Stanley-Wanda-Jillian dynamic.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Joe Falco » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:33 am

gameboy1234 wrote:That's the one I mean. Janis has her own Prediction(s), too.


Hmm, I had forgotten that small tidbit she revealed.

Hiai wrote:Now, then, here's the next conversation I see between Wanda and Jillian...


I can see that happening to some degree. The big reveal to Jillian that Wanda was responsible for bringing Faq's destroyer would certainly tip Jillian over the edge (at least, I think so). I'm sure that would lead to the disarray that Janis' prediction is indicating.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:39 am

Hiai wrote:Now, then, here's the next conversation I see between Wanda and Jillian (uhm, obviously never going to happen, even if for length purposes alone, but hey. lol):


Yeah ... investing in editting skills would be a good idea :P

But apart from a bit of the Purple here and there, that not only may happen, it will, for it MUST. Narrative causality.

Jillian hates Stanley because he sacked Faq. Wanda helped Stanley sack Faq. Jillian does not know that Wanda helped Stanley. This is an obvious bomb on the mantelpiece, and before the fat lady sings, it will blow up.

Hiai wrote:(See my thread labeled "The Stanley Fan Club" for my take on the Stanley-Wanda-Jillian dynamic.)


A link to the respective thread. This is the internet, you expect us to go anywhere without giving links?

1Luv wrote:Is Janis even following the prediction? Or does she just wish to see the Rules of Erfworld broken in order to bring about peace?(while grooming Sizemore for more responsibility)

I want to take a stab in the dark.Maybe Sizemore gets the arkenshovel? :D


Why not? Back in another reaction thread some time ago, I eventually speculated that the best qualified person to be Ruler of all Erfworld would be Sizemore.

On the one hand, being Ruler of the World means less than it seems. The world is so big that most of the decisions will be taken by administrative underlings anyway, so a Ruler of the World must be comfortable with the idea of doing nothing. And Sizemore seems well capable to keep himself occupied, what with all his trips to the Magic Kingdom.

On another hand, even without an Arkenshovel, Sizemore shows great command over the earth and dirt. He's the ultimate road, city, civilization builder. Oh great leader, please provide us with a city location at the coordinates here provided, in thy mercy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby build6 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:20 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:On the one hand, being Ruler of the World means less than it seems. The world is so big that most of the decisions will be taken by administrative underlings anyway


isn't this a limitation of "our" world, being real-time? erfworld doesn't have that problem since the ruler decides when the turn ends. so a ruler who wanted to COULD make every single decision, in-turn time being variable ("as long as he wants it to be")
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:51 am

build6 wrote:isn't this a limitation of "our" world, being real-time? erfworld doesn't have that problem since the ruler decides when the turn ends. so a ruler who
wanted to COULD make every single decision, in-turn time being variable ("as long as he wants it to be")


I guess that is so, but that leader would need momentuous amounts of scratchpads, records, and computation power or brain-juice. Even the most capable side leader so far encountered (Charlie) doesn't seem up to that kind of task: Charlie regards Paron's bracer as a very powerful artifact and seems to value those calculations highly. Meaning, such things don't come easy even for him/her/it/they.

Then there's communication/transportation costs in relaying orders and gathering information from around the whole world. Just how much of that can be done by an Eye-trilink anyway?

But yeah, in the end it will come down to how much grind is somebody willing to endure, turn after turn after turn. My guess is goes with my original appraisal, that the Ruler-of-the-World would be mostly for show.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby zeuspro » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:02 pm

Maybe Wanda just wants to put all the Arkentools back in the Arkentool Box so the titans can collect them. Maybe like all builders they need them for another job.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Oberon » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:00 pm

atteSmythe wrote:[Re: Veiled archons or other forces]Slately nor his sons knew, either, and they'd have to have been in the same hex as those veiled units for at least a turn - while expecting a force including a Foolamancer. There'd have to be a really good explanation for their inattentiveness.
100% agreement. The veiling at the battle in the FAQ pass showed that there is a chance to break the veil with any warlord unit, and there are piles of them present. There has already been a veiled raid on the forces in the field, one which captured and then killed/turned the Jetstone Chief Warlord, and there has been communications between the field and the capital since then. It would be a hard sell to expect the readers to believe that a force of veiled archons just happened to be hanging out at the Jetstone capital and remained undetected during what must be a full alert situation. A very, very hard sell.

I expected a lot more commentary on the fact that as soon as Wanda pulled the 'Pliers, Jillian pulled her sword. The cozy chat, inside jokes, and offers to turn have quickly devolved down into "get out and you won't be croaked" threats.
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