Book 2 – Text Updates 013

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:00 pm

build6 wrote:anyways, i'm sorry if this was answered somewhere else, but if each unit can "think hard" and communicate to the thinkamancer, and instructions go in the other direction as well, they seem absolutely central for the proper operation of any side, what does it mean to any side that doesn't have a thinkamancer?


As fjolnor said, they can pay Charlescomm for Thikagramms. In the update about Charley's business, parson guesses that his most income comes from the thinkagramms. I remember the term "Erfworld's telecom giant" used. Hiuring a thinkamancer from the Magic Kongdom is also an alternative. But I guess sides without thinkamancers work like Jetstone, they use magic items like hats for basic communication and have a lot of warlords, so these can make decisions out in the field without the need for supervision from the chief warlord or the ruler.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby regisminae » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:23 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:Stanley is not gonna like Wanda's deviation.


Does this make Wanda a deviant?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Dahak » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:53 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:Stanley is not gonna like Wanda's deviation.


Neither is Parson. Somehow I suspect that isn't going to be a bonding experience.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:59 pm

I suspect Wanda is a deviant in more ways than we wanna know. Wanda is going rather rogue on the both of them, but she is the core of their army. it's ripe with drama potential.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby BillMcD » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:02 am

build6 wrote:
Oberon wrote:Dear God... The clip of speech you are referring to was used in a Guns 'N Roses song, but it is a rather famous line from the epic movie Cool Hand Luke.



hrm. i had to look it up. are you very old? i'll get off your lawn


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is a true classic, and considering the Use Your Illusions albums themselves are now 20 years old, really, if you're old enough to get the Guns reference, calling someone else old is really a case of Pot & Kettle.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby multilis » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:07 am

the_tick_rules wrote:Wanda is going rather rogue...

When asked to turn she said no, must stick with Stanley, tools must be gathered together.

Her "roguishness" so far is leading as she sees best. Normally a caster does not lead.

She gathered intel in a risky way, gamble seems to have paid off, I doubt scouts would have found out as much, and current plan of croak the king to disband the army wouldn't work without Ossomer capture.

Her request to decrypt Jack may turn to have had some ruthless sort of merit, Jill is confirmed to have a mancer that makes turning easier and Jack is one of most obvious targets. (On flipside, other members of GK might be more likely to turn after to avoid being decrypted by Wanda)

She left Ansom behind because of concern for his dwindling loyalty, especially if she has to croak his "father" and "lover".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby build6 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:18 am

BillMcD wrote:Cool Hand Luke[/i] is a true classic, and considering the Use Your Illusions albums themselves are now 20 years old, really, if you're old enough to get the Guns reference, calling someone else old is really a case of Pot & Kettle.


That "Dear God" was what set me off. The movie sounds interesting, and a "actually no, that wasn't a GNR reference, it was from the movie that GNR itself referenced" would have worked to (a) let me know, and (b) get me interested in checking it out. As of now the movie is associated in my mind with "old guys who like to show off", so if you guys like it so much, you're not working very hard to make a new fan. As for GNR - apparently they liked the line so much they reffed it twice, it's also on a song in "Chinese Democracy", out late 2008, vs 1967 for the movie (1980-something for the Illusion albums). And liking Led Zeppelin doesn't make me from that era either. Music's different.

Anyways, back on topic -

fjolnir wrote:Re: Thinkamancers, remember, the majority of charlescomm's money is made via providing thinkamancy solutions to sides without them, and orders are conveyed via "natural thinkamancy as well"


Welf von Ehrwald wrote:As fjolnor said, they can pay Charlescomm for Thikagramms. In the update about Charley's business, parson guesses that his most income comes from the thinkagramms. I remember the term "Erfworld's telecom giant" used. Hiuring a thinkamancer from the Magic Kongdom is also an alternative. But I guess sides without thinkamancers work like Jetstone, they use magic items like hats for basic communication and have a lot of warlords, so these can make decisions out in the field without the need for supervision from the chief warlord or the ruler.


hrm, so in terms of the value of casters to a side, having a Thinkamancer seems like a real "edge" to have... while (except for tunnel-fighting) a dirtamancer not as useful... and I guess a hippiemancer (unless also a strategic genius like Parson) is of no combat value at all....

splintermute wrote:I don't think there's a general "lie to Parson" imperative, but units can lie to Parson if they think it's in the best interest of GK. Vurp is a natural ally, as opposed to a GK unit, so there may be less duty there, and maybe his secret about what really happened to Saline is so explosive it would tear GK apart. Maggie wasn't concealing anything from Parson, just weighing the importance of the information against the importance of conserving her remaining juice.


It seems strange to me that in erfworld, where basically the "rank and file" don't have any freedom (per what Archons have to put up with when ordered), they'd have the freedom to decide/choose how and when to lie, I'd have thought it'd be more of an explicit order from Stanley (or is it Wanda?).

Anyways I'm wondering if this conversation between Jillian and Wanda's gonna reveal a bit more about the "origins" ...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby splintermute » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:29 am

build6 wrote:It seems strange to me that in erfworld, where basically the "rank and file" don't have any freedom (per what Archons have to put up with when ordered), they'd have the freedom to decide/choose how and when to lie, I'd have thought it'd be more of an explicit order from Stanley (or is it Wanda?).

Anyways I'm wondering if this conversation between Jillian and Wanda's gonna reveal a bit more about the "origins" ...


They do have some leeway, to the extent that they can disobey orders, and presumably lie, to preserve their side (see Book 1, page 5), although this carries the threat of possible disbandment.

I'm sure Vurp is lying to protect someone, but I don't know who. Maybe Stanley, but it seems unlikely - why would anyone care if Stanley had Saline killed? Lots of heirs in Erfworld assume the throne that way, and all the other sides already assume that's what Stanley did. The likeliest candidates are Wanda or Vurp himself or perhaps Charlie, or it could be someone totally out of left field, like Sizemore or Maggie.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby build6 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:30 am

splintermute wrote:They do have some leeway, to the extent that they can disobey orders, and presumably lie, to preserve their side (see Book 1, page 5), although this carries the threat of possible disbandment.


ok... man, (a) even though erfworld's so far only got 1 "book" there's already so many details I can't keep 'em in my head (I did read through everything once before, I swear! :-), (b) I guess I was too disturbed by what Maggie said about the ... "uses" put to Archons/lower ranking women that I got a skewed perspective about what is/is not allowable.

splintermute wrote:I'm sure Vurp is lying to protect someone, but I don't know who. Maybe Stanley, but it seems unlikely - why would anyone care if Stanley had Saline killed? Lots of heirs in Erfworld assume the throne that way, and all the other sides already assume that's what Stanley did.


hrm, that's a real good point, hadn't thought about it... . Man, this mystery is driving me insane! :-) Cannot wait to find out. But I'm gonna vote against it being Sizemore, though ... (but yeah I get that you're just making "out of left field" examples)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby raphfrk » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:59 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Or maybe a sufficiently powerful Turnamancer might be able to move your turn further back in the order... (probably not, but :D )


Another option is that he paid some random unaligned side who had a turn later in the day money to ally with him for the turn. He might even have a collection of sides available for that purpose.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Maybe the Arkentools really want to come together. It seems that a side can only grow to a certain size and then becomes ungovernable, because even a masterclass thinkamancer would be overstrained. With the arkendish, there is no such problem.


There might be ways around it (assuming kingdoms get so large) - multiple thinkamancers (each one could govern a region) or less efficiently using hate magic or eye books.

In Erfworld at least with duty compelling subjects, and no real opportunity for slacking off/corruption it isn't quite as important monitoring the warlord governing some far off city, as long as he/she has some means of contacting the ruler should something important arise or orders need be changed.

raphfrk wrote:Another option is that he paid some random unaligned side who had a turn later in the day money to ally with him for the turn. He might even have a collection of sides available for that purpose.


I quite like that idea, and it would get around the question of whether Jillian could ally with another side without the others knowing.

And it is something smart like Parson would come up with, really using Erfworld's mechanics to set up a nifty trap.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Oberon » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:12 am

build6 wrote:That "Dear God" was what set me off.
Read everything on the Internet looking for offense and you'll spend all your days upset. Those two words could be taken with amusement, offense, or totally neutrally, and the choice is all up to you.
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And stay off! *mumbling* rotten kids these days...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Davre » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:14 am

splintermute wrote:
build6 wrote:I'm sure Vurp is lying to protect someone, but I don't know who. Maybe Stanley, but it seems unlikely - why would anyone care if Stanley had Saline killed? Lots of heirs in Erfworld assume the throne that way, and all the other sides already assume that's what Stanley did. The likeliest candidates are Wanda or Vurp himself or perhaps Charlie, or it could be someone totally out of left field, like Sizemore or Maggie.


I think it's certainly plausible that Vurp is lying to protect someone other than Stanley, but I don't think it's a given in that I'm not sure that there would be no repercussions to Stanley if it were publicly revealed that he offed Saline IV. I don't quite see what they would be, but they might be there. Just because something happens often doesn't mean there aren't consequences when it goes from something that many people suspect (or are privately sure of) to something that has been publicly confirmed. But, to repeat myself, I can't quite see what they would be because Stanley isn't that popular to begin with and there doesn't seem to be any over-arching law-and-order system. Maybe Stanley just doesn't want people to know because of the blow to his (self-perceived) image.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Oberon » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:24 am

splintermute wrote:I'm sure Vurp is lying to protect someone, but I don't know who. Maybe Stanley, but it seems unlikely - why would anyone care if Stanley had Saline killed? Lots of heirs in Erfworld assume the throne that way, and all the other sides already assume that's what Stanley did. The likeliest candidates are Wanda or Vurp himself or perhaps Charlie, or it could be someone totally out of left field, like Sizemore or Maggie.
Very good analysis, and it lines up with my own thoughts that Stanley is probably not the cause of Saline IVs death. I didn't think so back in Book 1, and facts revealed since then have reinforced that hunch.

We know that Don had an heir who "made a play for the throne", and that would presumably be rather public knowledge within TV, as Don spoke of it rather casually to Jillian. So there is a precedent for Stanley offing Saline and assuming the throne, and not much reason for Stanley to conspire to conceal this fact if it is true. And Stanley hasn't shown much if any capability for shrewd, long term planning. His longest term plan that we've seen has been a vague "collect all of the Arkentools" quest, and that led to his being reduced to a single city at the start of Book 1. And as you say, everyone already thinks Stanley did it, so there isn't much story surprise if it turns out that they are correct.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby joosy » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:49 am

multilis wrote:She left Ansom behind because of concern for his dwindling loyalty, especially if she has to croak his "father" and "lover".


I believe that was just an excuse. Ansom's obedience is never in question as was demonstrated when Wanda commanded him to NOT inform Stanley of the change in plan. Since Ansom is the Chief Warlord she should not be able to do that given what we understand of the 'caste' system in Erfworld. Ansom balks at the plans and voices his displeasure but he ultimately does what he is told.

I believe the real reason, the one Wanda probably isn't admitting even to herself, is so that Jillian won't be distracted by Ansom and stay focused on Wanda.

Love the insights into the mind of a Thinkamancer and my eyebrows raised when I found that Maggie was just an 'adept'. Hopefully we will see her level or increase in status soon.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Pax » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:57 pm

regisminae wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:Thats odd. I could have sworn that Tri-mancer links required a "master-class" thinkamancer. Of cource, "Adept" means highly skilled or advanced, so both "mastermind" and "adept" could be "master-class."


Perhaps you're thinking of Janis' request for Mastermancers to unravel the trimancer link near the end of Book One?

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_140

I don't recall it saying anywhere that a Thinkamancer had to be of a certain ability to form a link. Had to be a Thinkamancer, yes, but ability wasn't mentioned.

... perhaps the ranking goes "Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, Adept" ...? And "Mastermind" would be a sort of "Grand Master", the next step up from Adept?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Pax » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:05 pm

Zeku wrote:We're accustomed to games that reward experience based on kills or proximity to battle, but that is simply a limitation of computer-based games. In the old rpgs, you didn't gain a 'level' until you actually spent time training with an instructor, and you could gain the prerequisite 'experience' by doing almost anything related to your character.

... and in the really REALLY old game - Original D&D, and it's immediate successors up to and including 1E AD&D - you only, I repeat ONLY, got Experience Points for "accumulating treasure", and treasure only counted for XP if you "defeated" (at the time, read "killed in battle") the monster(s)/etc who were the previous owners of same.

Which means we're back to "get XP by killing stuff": full circle. :ugeek:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby Sinrus » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:10 pm

Pax wrote:
regisminae wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:Thats odd. I could have sworn that Tri-mancer links required a "master-class" thinkamancer. Of cource, "Adept" means highly skilled or advanced, so both "mastermind" and "adept" could be "master-class."


Perhaps you're thinking of Janis' request for Mastermancers to unravel the trimancer link near the end of Book One?

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_140

I don't recall it saying anywhere that a Thinkamancer had to be of a certain ability to form a link. Had to be a Thinkamancer, yes, but ability wasn't mentioned.

... perhaps the ranking goes "Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, Adept" ...? And "Mastermind" would be a sort of "Grand Master", the next step up from Adept?


It seems to me as if master would be above adept. And I think that although Master-Class is an all-encompassing term, each discipline has a different name for their Masters. E.G. Grand Abbey for Florists and Mastermind for Thinkamancers.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby build6 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:18 pm

joosy wrote:Love the insights into the mind of a Thinkamancer and my eyebrows raised when I found that Maggie was just an 'adept'. Hopefully we will see her level or increase in status soon.


I'm really hoping "adept" doesn't translate into "expendable". (well ok everybody's expendable in stanley's eyes, but i like Maggie and I hope she's not getting offed). I wonder how high Misty ranked?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 013

Postby sheepfly » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:11 pm

Just noticing on this update's artwork:

When did Stanley get white (or light-colored) eyes?

Might wanna fill that in.
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