Book 2 – Page 23

[Crovius]

My guess is that she turns Ansom - If she does this, the gobwin knob ground stacks lose their leadership bonus, and she can grind them up. When gobwin knob's turn comes again, they can take the tower with their fliers, but she can probably retake it from them on the next turn.

Other possibility: Sizemore. Would be an interesting twist, and she (assumedly) would also get all of his golems if she turned him.

1) We don't know if Decrypted CAN be turned.
2) No proof that turning a caster automatically gives you any golems/uncroaked/whatever that the caster made
3) ... actually I only had two point. But remember, the Turnamancer said "I can try." So it might not even work!

[Neko]

She's going after TRamennis. SHe'll have him turned by the turnamancer and let everyone else have it out at each other while she gets a free tactician and full army stack along with casters.

I'd like to remind everyone that the only instance of Turning we've seen involving a turnamancer has been confined to a single unit. IF Jillian goes for Tremennis and manages to Turn him, the Jetstone forces do not come with. The net result is a Faq warlord in the same hex as allied units, and a pissed off Jetstone who will probably end alliance b/c Jillian messed with Slately's last (living) son. Non-allied units in the same hex immediately attack unless there are warlords on each side - in this case there are, so the order would be to capture and not kill Faq Tremennis (who will probably turn back to Jetstone in the following turn). So. Not. Worth. It.

The only exception to this involves Natural Allies who are not a side like Jetstone is. A Turning deal brokered with the Chief brings the Tribe with it b/c all the members of the Tribe know the will of their Chief instantly via natural Thinkamancy. Different rules.

[DoctorJest]

My guess is that she turns Ansom - If she does this, the gobwin knob ground stacks lose their leadership bonus, and she can grind them up. When gobwin knob's turn comes again, they can take the tower with their fliers, but she can probably retake it from them on the next turn.

Other possibility: Sizemore. Would be an interesting twist, and she (assumedly) would also get all of his golems if she turned him.

Sizemore isn't present. We have no reason to believe turning a unit at range means you can turn a unit anywhere in the world. Also, she specifically said she knew now who she came there (Spacerock) for, so it's implicit who she came for is at or near Spacerock. As she's leaving the city, it has to be near. That limits it to the other named characters nearby: Ansom, Traemennis, and Sammy of Hagar.

[DoctorJest]

I fear for Jack - he may have just signed his own death warrant QQ

It now comes down to the final answer to two questions, both related to decisions made by the demonstratively erratic Jillian
Where is she going?
and
Who is she wanting to turn?

/set metaphor_mix = guava_jelly

I've asserted for awhile now my suspicions about the nature of these 2 answers and it would be foolish to change horses in midstream....
minus all the the potential turnees already stricken - poor dear Wanda.... didn't swing at the third strike because she thought it was the second, but there are no more second chances now..... my smuckers are still on the same number until the ball stops rolling and BINGO! 4 aces!
Ansom is the easy answer, IMHO too easy. Tramennis? or Haggar? IMHO not relevant enough yet.... It would have to be a very clever plan.. one of Charlie's plans.... it would have to bring the story around into itself, like a comet coming back in for a close approach to the sun. Using some sort of fancy dancy teleport, Charlie the wizard brings that max stack of superheavies Jillian just put together - backed by a goodly supply of archons - in a massive push against the one could safely assume lightly defended and unprepared Gobwin Knob. That fills the bill with both feet. How many of GK's archons are out scouting mountain hexes? How many dragons are posted on the fast travel system connecting the front? What's really left defending GK itself, right now, this turn? The second question you might wonder? Well, Charlie does have a real affection for Parson's watch....

All good up to the second question. Jillian had no reason to think of Parson that exact moment when she had her revelation of who she wanted to try to turn, and there's no reason for her to have been at Spacerock to "come there" for him: quite the opposite, if she was there to turn Parson, then she was in the wrong place. No, she intends to turn someone nearby.

Remember, Jillian says she now knows who she came there for: not who Charley sent her there for. Whomever she's picking, it isn't Charley's choice, it's hers specifically, and she's picking based on her own goals.

And no teleport needed, I think. Notice that Jillian's big stack are all high move. They might be able to close the distance without any hocus pocus.

[DoctorJest]

The only exception to this involves Natural Allies who are not a side like Jetstone is. A Turning deal brokered with the Chief brings the Tribe with it b/c all the members of the Tribe know the will of their Chief instantly via natural Thinkamancy. Different rules.

All the units in an army led by a Warlord know the will of their warlord instantly via natural thinkamancy. Same rules.

There is also precedent for this in Turn Based Strategy games, as well: If one of your generals is woo'd by a foreign princess in Total War: Medieval II, then he doesn't get killed by the army he's leading, but is able to safely join the other side as a general.

[Wender]

My guess is that she turns Ansom - If she does this, the gobwin knob ground stacks lose their leadership bonus, and she can grind them up. When gobwin knob's turn comes again, they can take the tower with their fliers, but she can probably retake it from them on the next turn.

Jillian has no interest in putting her own troops on the line here, not more than is absolutely necessary. She will take Ansom and kill as many decrypted archons with him as she can without getting bogged down (for Charlie), then break combat. At that point, she has two options: Leave, and let Jetstone sort the rest of it out, or return to tower airspace, not attacking, but making it clear that Wanda has one and only one option when her side's turn starts: beat feet back to GK with whatever forces Jetstone left her.

As for Jack, I think one significant variable in his decision making might be... Parson. He likes Parson. If Parson retakes the Chief Warlord mantle and applies his skill seriously, as Jack wants him to, Jack may stay out of loyalty to him. If not, Jillian may ask one more time and get him. Just a thought.

Other possibility: Sizemore. Would be an interesting twist, and she (assumedly) would also get all of his golems if she turned him.

I know it's not canon, but I think it's a safe assumption that "at a distance" refers to a distance within a hex, or something similar. Turnamancy is wildly overpowered if an unassisted caster can turn someone hundreds of hexes away with relatively little juice. Besides, why not take the obvious choice? By isolating Wanda from the Decrypted army and turning Ansom (assuming she succeeds, which is definitely not a given) she'll have done an astonishing amount of damage to GK's side simply by taking away its two biggest force multipliers. She can leave cleanup to Trammenis, since he's right there, and since there's no reason for her new, small, heavily leveraged side to take the brunt of this combat. If Haggar sees that Jetstone has the clear upper hand, GK is really toast... assuming that Parson doesn't step in.

I have to say that Jillian may fly by the seat of her pants, but her tactics so far have been brilliant. She's taken apart a much stronger side without a single attack or a single casualty. No wonder Duncan Scone is so loyal.

[Happydork]

Frankly I think Jillian made the best possible tactical decision based on what we know.
What we know:
1. Wanda’s air force is strong enough to take Jillian’s. (per Parson’s mathamancy)
2. Haggar’s forces are not strong enough to take either RCC’s or GK’s forces until after the two fight & weaken each other. (Haggar’s battle plan)
3. RCC’s forces at the bridge were strong enough to beat GK ‘s combined ground & air forces.

Tactical options:
1. Jillian team up with RCC’s forces at the bridge and stomp GK’s ground troops led by Ansom.
Pros – The bulk of GK’s forces are gone including almost all of the decrypted.
Cons – Wanda’s air force is left alive.
Wash - Spacerock isn’t strong enough to hold against Haggar’s or Wanda’s forces. – This isn’t important since whoever attacks first will be croaked by whoever goes next. If Wanda attacks, Haggar can easily cleanup and take Spacerock. If Haggar attacks first, Wanda can cleanup… It is a traditional Mexican standoff. No one will attack first and once Ansom is gone, the RCC survivors will be able to reinforce Spacerock. This is a complete victory for RCC.


2. Everyone withdraw to Spacerock and beat down Wanda.
Pros – Wanda’s air force dies and the decrypted ground troops might die.
Cons – The decrypted troops might not die. Additionally Haggar is still dangerous, on your door step, uninjured, and you are injured.
There is a lot of risk in this plan with Spacerock and the King's existence being left up to chance.

I like option 1 the best. From a tactical standpoint, it provides the greatest gains with the minimal amount of risk. Additionally from Jillian & Charlie’s viewpoint, having the boogie man alive helps with their mercenary business.

[DoctorJest]

3. RCC’s forces at the bridge were strong enough to beat GK ‘s combined ground & air forces.

No, that's not correct. They were strong enough to delay GK's forces long enough for Haggar's forces to move up to reinforce them. They were not strong enough to defeat them on their own.

2. Everyone withdraw to Spacerock and beat down Wanda.

This appears to be Slately's plan.

[Neko]

The only exception to this involves Natural Allies who are not a side like Jetstone is. A Turning deal brokered with the Chief brings the Tribe with it b/c all the members of the Tribe know the will of their Chief instantly via natural Thinkamancy. Different rules.

All the units in an army led by a Warlord know the will of their warlord instantly via natural thinkamancy. Same rules.

Agreed, but each unit on a side also has its own Loyalty stat. Turning a warlord unit doesn't necessarily turn the stack/army that warlord is leading in this sort of viral manner. There is also the argument that the instant the warlord unit is turned to another side, the natural thinkamancy connection to troops of the original side is instantly severed.

[DoctorJest]

Agreed, but each unit on a side also has its own Loyalty stat. Turning a warlord unit doesn't necessarily turn the stack/army that warlord is leading in this sort of viral manner. There is also the argument that the instant the warlord unit is turned to another side, the natural thinkamancy connection to troops of the original side is instantly severed.

Perhaps, but if there were no way to take a turned warlord out of the stack he is in without him being immediately recaptured, then turnamancy is totally useless magic. So there has to be a way that it can be done without making the prospect pointless. After all, Jillian offered to use her Turnamancer free Wanda... and Wanda is riding on a dwagon. Surely that point wasn't lost on Jillian. So we're stuck with two possibilities:

1.) The users of this forum are smarter than everyone in Erfworld because we're the only ones who notice the logistical problems of turning a unit stacked with other enemy units

or

2.) There's a good way to make turning those units successful without immediately endangering them to capture or croaking.

Since Jillian is specifically asking about Turning at Range, she's not considering capturing then turning: she wants to do it afield. Again, we're stuck with the choice of either there is a way for the turned unit to get away or Jillian is a moron for considering it.

So there has to be a reasonable way for a turned unit to be able to get away from the side he was turned against.

[Neko]

Perhaps, but if there were no way to take a turned warlord out of the stack he is in without him being immediately recaptured, then turnamancy is totally useless magic. So there has to be a way that it can be done without making the prospect pointless. After all, Jillian offered to use her Turnamancer free Wanda... and Wanda is riding on a dwagon.

The standard way seems to be to capture the unit first, then use Turnamancy. Jillian references Vanna's dungeon work on Duncan Scone during a summer update, I think. This seems to be a good balancer for what is a rockin' awesome power even when not Link-Enchanced. The last time she did this she got Lvl 6 warlord Duncan Scone out of the attempt, which easily pays in value for whatever upkeep/contract price the caster would normally cost. Both times Jillian made the offer to Wanda, they were close enough where Wanda could have hopped over to Jillian's Megalogwiff (Book 2) or from the tower balcony and onto a Gwiffon (Book 1).

Since Jillian is specifically asking about Turning at Range, she's not considering capturing then turning: she wants to do it afield.

That goes back to what the mechanical requirements are for this magical process. "At Range" could mean:

1) Not in direct physical contact with the unit in question (but otherwise at arm's reach)
2) In the same hex as the unit (but rather far away in what we percieve as physical context)
3) Anywhere on boopin' Erf

Until we know the base definition of "At Range" we can only guess at the rest. BTW - thanks for a nice discussion! You make some really good points.

[name lips]

I don't think it will be a big surprise. I'm pretty sure she's going to try to turn Ansom.

Simply because she's been conflicted for so long, trying to decide who she really loves and why... She won't see it as turning him, but as freeing him -- as she has freed herself from Wanda's influence.

[HandofShadows]

I keep getting the feeling that more happened at Faq than we know about. Jack, Wanda, and Stanley aren't talking, and Jillian wasn't there. The Predictamancer is (suspiciously?) absent.

I have been thinking the same thing for a long time. I guess "What Happened to Faq" is still a question that needs to be frequently asked still.

[Vamcoy]

Had to register just to post my theory. My bet is she will try to turn Ansom and then since hes Decrypted he'll turn to dust and that will just ruin her day.

[ShinyBrownCoat]

Had to register just to post my theory. My bet is she will try to turn Ansom and then since hes Decrypted he'll turn to dust and that will just ruin her day.

Or Wanda sees that she's trying to turn Ansom and just disbands him out of spite.

[Pax]

How are Jack and Wanda going to get out of this without being croaked? Especially since they're still too important as characters to kill them off.


But now I'm thinking, with Jack, you never know. I'm reminded of the rampant speculation in Book 1, when Jack was present at the battle between Stanley and Transylvito, about what was real and what was illusion.

So now I have to wonder... might Jack pull something similar, where he makes an illusion of himself to stay with Wanda, but in reality joins Jillian?

The only reason to think they're in any danger is because Parson calculated their odds of survival earlier, but that was when Faq's forces were against them as well. Now that Jillian is leaving the battlespace Wanda and Jack's odd of survival rise sharply.

... unless Tramennis hightails it back with his entire force, archers included.

And maybe Haggar's forces will do the unexpected, and actually come in on Jetstone's side.

If both things happen? Wanda could get pwnt, and badly - and need a RESCUE attempt, by Ansom.

...

You know, I can almost see Wanda being CAPTURED, not croaked ... and see Jetstone trying to Turn her, rather than just offing her and being done with it. Partly, to try and get his sons back. Partly, to "prove that Royalty was the true way of the titans", rather than Toolism; if one of he chief proponents of Toolism turns, and enters the service of a Royal ... then Toolism is cut short at the knees, but GOOD.

[MonteCristo]

Y'know what i would have loved... If Duncan had taken one spenl to glance over to ossomer and simply say "not even close"...

My bet is she will try to turn Ansom and then since hes Decrypted he'll turn to dust and that will just ruin her day.

Actually what i think will ruin her day is the simple fact that Ansom doesn't love her anymore; ell doesn't love her as much as he loves wanda
now THAT's gonna be a nice kick in the teeth

[Ehbobo]

Meh. She deserves it.

[OneHugeTuck]

I keep getting the feeling that more happened at Faq than we know about. Jack, Wanda, and Stanley aren't talking, and Jillian wasn't there. The Predictamancer is (suspiciously?) absent.

I have been thinking the same thing for a long time. I guess "What Happened to Faq" is still a question that needs to be frequently asked still.

What happens in Faq, stays in Faq.

[gazes_also]

With the fast strike against Slately stopped, Jillian pulls out her troops. Slately must be assuming she's coming back, otherwise why would he wait to recall Tramennis's force as she asked? I don't think she's looking to solve anyone else's problems anymore.
She has rendered Wanda's force "unable or unwilling" to take the tower (as Parson would say), what happens next there is Slately and Wanda's problem, Jillian isn't going to waste a single unit on the ungrateful Slately.

It's possible that taking her whole force is a change of plan based on Vanna's answer to whether she has enough juice. If it was a sure thing to turn from a distance, she would have gone with Vanna alone, but now she's taking enough force to grab Ansom and have Vanna try and turn him at leisure. It is not logical that there would be any flying units left with Ansom. When the whole battle was going to hinge on destroying the tower and disbanding the Jetstone army, why hold back any air units when every unit could be critical to achieving the breakthrough. It would be a mirror image of the Ossomer grab.

Tactically; Jillian grabs Ansom - GK's ground force is without a chief warlord.
Strategically, JS ground force can withdraw to SR for the Wanda turkey shoot, Hagar is presented with an easy target in the weakened GK force, and really can't refuse to move up. They don't even need to engage, just hold the bridge as GK's force is unlikely to attack on the next turn.
Jillian gives RCC a winning position without losing a unit of her own. Victory is by no means certain, be she won't be doing the dirty work for anyone else anymore.

Maybe that's the insight she had - she's not a mercenary anymore, so she doesn't have to take anyone else's orders of when to fight and who to fight, she picks her own battles.

Another thing in the balance in favour of Ansom being captured or turned: as someone pointed out, there should be only two pages to the end of the chapter, which would be a dramatic moment for Parson (who has been completely peripheral so far) to regain the position of chief warlord for chapter 2.