Book 2 – Page 24

[DoctorJest]

You know, I wonder if they had to pitch those tents, or if the tents just pop when an army is bivouaced in the field then un-pop when the army resumes marching...

[Chit Rule Railroad]

If Ansom is reborn and turned to Faq, we may see both Ansom and Slately torn between bargaining with Wanda to restore Ossomer to life versus croaking her. Or if Wanda turns to Faq, and Jillian doesn't arrange for Ossomer to get the same treatment as Ansom, Ansom would be royally angry.

[Xondoure]

Holy hell, that's stupid, Jillian. Turning Ansom won't make him not Decrypted.

Yes, but remember there is a Healomancer in Tremennis' forces. That's exactly why she needs his buy-in to this operation, in addition to the support forces. If there's a chance the Healomancer could un-Croak a Decrypted unit (Ansom) like Healomancers can un-Croak regular Croaked units, then it makes Ansom quite easy to Turn once Toolism and Wanda are out of his head. GK is deprived of it's Chief Warlord and all the bonuses he gives to the GK infantry at the bridge, making them quite easy to smash.

Jillian is chaotic and emotionally unbalanced, indeed, but she is battle-savvy.

Possibly a healomancy, turnomancy linkup?

[Ninjaguineapig]

Where did it ever say Charley was funding Faq?

That would be here:

Vanna had been the perfect solution. Having a Turnamancer reduced the production of an heir by twenty turns, and with funds coming in from Transylvito, Vanna was able to boost Otoh and Kibo's production drastically. Don King was very happy, though he would not be if he ever found out it was Charlie who had funded Vanna's contract. Even Vinny didn't know about that.

Charley funded Vanna's contract fine... but what about all the other stuff listed that he was supposedly funding, like the heir? He paid for one caster, not all of Faq's treasury. And Jillian already said "so what" to pissing off her backers, in any case.

Charlie paid for the caster who is halving the popping time for the heir. If he didn't Don would have to wait another 20 turns or pick up the slack by himself. Also, yes. Jillian does not care about what her backers want, and that can very well bite her in the backside later on. By attacking the ground column, she's throwing her unit's lives away, and risking losing her funding, which would result in a shortage of rations or a wave of disbandment.
As I said in my first post, I would not want to be a EAQian.

[TamLin]

I think the problem here is that we all think we know what Jillian is thinking, but it seems to me her intentions are being kept intentionally obtuse.

Trust and loyalty (or the lack thereof...) are emerging as major themes here in Book 2. I've been very surprised by Jillian's behavior so far, this is a side of her I don't think we've seen before. For example, did she call Wanda in to parlay as part of legitimate diplomatic effort, or just to trick her into dividing her force? Or both? There's no way to be sure.

Near as I can tell, there are great many possibilities as to why Jillian would not want to attack Wanda even though it's the strategically smartest thing to do:

1. Because she legitimately has feelings for Wanda.

2. Because she thinks that she use Wanda to further her own gains later.

3. Because she's concerned for Ansom's well-being.

4. Because she really is planning to sell out Jetstone.

5. Because she knows something we don't about how this attack will play out.

6. Any, or all, of the above, in any combination.

Bitch of it is, I don't see anything so far to make me feel one or any combination of possibilities is more likely than another, which I have to assume is intentional.

I should note that I've intentionally not been reading the text updates; I find the story is stronger when we're not privy to the character's thoughts and must try to interpret their intentions from actions alone. Possibly something in the text editions counteracts what I've said, but I hope not, because really, it's so much more intriguing this way.

[Neko]

It's a nice update, but what is making that NORP sound, and what does it mean?

I think that sound is the Jetstone encampment announcing Faq's arrival into Tremennis' battlespace. One definition of NORP is "Normal Ordinary Responsible Person" - which mirrors Tremennis' NORP position regarding why Jillian should go after Wanda. Any responsible strategist/gameplayer would remove the Croakamancer in this scenario based on the likely speculation that Drecrypted will Dust with Wanda's removal (Slately, Charley, Don, the majority of this Forum, etc.), and that it's the best outcome for everybody on the RCC2. Jillian is definately not a NORP, and thus her longshot strategy. Love is a Battlefield.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F104.jpg - Panel 8 - Noises when Charlie enter's GK's battlespace

[Lamech]

I don't see why everyone thinks that the decrypted will turn to dust with out their croakamancer. They were made by the pliers, which will keep on existing. They seem to be nothing but, super uncroaked, and I don't think that uncroaked disappear with out the croakamancer. They are never before seen units so anythings possible, and its definitly a danger, but I wouldn't call it likely.
I also fail to see why they think Wanda is the source of GK's power. Its the pliers that give the power, and the wielder can be replaced; if the pliers or titans or whoever chose Wanda, they can just pick another; if its random a new one can be found from the 9000 units; if its some stat requirement I'm sure a croakamancer in the MK will love wielding uber-croakamancy. Maybe its a only one wielder a tool, or the requirements to use or reasons for choosing a wielder are wierd or not understandable, but again I doubt it.

[multilis]

Any responsible strategist/gameplayer would remove the Croakamancer in this scenario based on the likely speculation that Drecrypted will Dust with Wanda's removal

*If* your goal is to defeat GK.

Suppose FAQ helps finish off GK quickly? Then what? What reward will Jillian get out of it? Everyone will think their reward is already paid in helping her get set up.

Charlie is viewed as master strategist, and is driven by *reward* rather than helping allies. Allowing problems for allies actually helps him get more work.

Jillian is still primarily a mercenary power, using funds from others to fight their wars, similar to Charlie. Perhaps by dumb luck, her strategy may work for her own selfish advantage.

[Dances-with-Marbits]

I don't see why everyone thinks that the decrypted will turn to dust with out their croakamancer. They were made by the pliers, which will keep on existing. They seem to be nothing but, super uncroaked, and I don't think that uncroaked disappear with out the croakamancer. They are never before seen units so anythings possible, and its definitly a danger, but I wouldn't call it likely.

One well known Erf mechanic is that when an Overlord or other faction ruler croaks, all of their subordinate units disband unless they have an heir. Due to their loyalty to Wanda rather than GK or Stanley, many people think that Wanda counts as decrypted units' ruler/overlord, so that were she to croak all of her decrypted would disband.

I also fail to see why they think Wanda is the source of GK's power. Its the pliers that give the power, and the wielder can be replaced; if the pliers or titans or whoever chose Wanda, they can just pick another; if its random a new one can be found from the 9000 units; if its some stat requirement I'm sure a croakamancer in the MK will love wielding uber-croakamancy. Maybe its a only one wielder a tool, or the requirements to use or reasons for choosing a wielder are wierd or not understandable, but again I doubt it.

Wanda is GK's spearhead. She's the one who is leading, and more importantly creating, the massive army that is working it's way across Erf. Keep in mind that the Arkenpliers were in Jetstone's possession for titan's know how many turns, and they didn't have one known case of attunement.

[TamLin]

I don't see why everyone thinks that the decrypted will turn to dust with out their croakamancer. They were made by the pliers, which will keep on existing. They seem to be nothing but, super uncroaked, and I don't think that uncroaked disappear with out the croakamancer. They are never before seen units so anythings possible, and its definitly a danger, but I wouldn't call it likely.
I also fail to see why they think Wanda is the source of GK's power. Its the pliers that give the power, and the wielder can be replaced; if the pliers or titans or whoever chose Wanda, they can just pick another; if its random a new one can be found from the 9000 units; if its some stat requirement I'm sure a croakamancer in the MK will love wielding uber-croakamancy. Maybe its a only one wielder a tool, or the requirements to use or reasons for choosing a wielder are wierd or not understandable, but again I doubt it.

Thing is, it's all speculation. The Decrypted might continue existing without Wanda, but there's no way to know for sure. It's a big risk to take when you're talking about your entire army (or your main squeeze).

Similarly, I don't think we know if an Arkentool actually CAN choose another wielder. Perhaps it's something that can only happen once. And if it can happen again, whose to say it will attune to someone else in GK? What if some Jetstone caster ends up with them? I honestly agree with you that these possibilities are doubtful, but if this were a real situation I know I'd hardly want be eager to roll the dice no matter what my prediction was.

[splintermute]

Another issue - is Wanda croakable?

In the summer updates, Charlie said that the best way to disprove Toolism is to croak an attuned wielder, implying that no attuned wielder has ever been croaked before (or that none of the other tools had been attuned before). Perhaps attuning to an Arkentool does actually make you immortal. Of the three known Tools:

Dish: Since acquiring the dish, Charlie just sits in his capital, and doesn't appear to have directly entered any combat situations.

Hammer: The only battle we've seen an attuned Stanley engage in directly was the air battle at the Minty Mountain pass. Yes, he lost lots of knights and dwagons, and yes, Jack, helped him escape, but he did engage in hand-to-hand combat with Caesar, and in the end he didn't have a scratch on him.

Pliers: Since attuning, Wanda has been in several battles. The three that we've seen:
-Re-taking Warchalking: the battle was over before it barely had a chance to start
-The Unaroyal fiasco: admittedly, the target was Princess Cruz, but Wanda was on the front lines and emerged unscathed
-Taking Ossomer: she avoided the hail of arrows, subdued Tramennis, and surprised Ossomer from behind

Conclusion - we have never seen a Tool even get injured, much less croaked. I'm kind of partial to the idea that they're invincible.

[Dr Pepper]

You know, I wonder if they had to pitch those tents, or if the tents just pop when an army is bivouaced in the field then un-pop when the army resumes marching...

The tents pop, but they're a lot more comfortable and secure if an encampment specialist walks the rows. Without one, there's a chance that the troops won't be well rested and may suffer effectiveness penalties.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Oh Jillian, beating around the bush so, potentially alienating allies. I wonder what Trem would say if Jillian just leveled with him.

And it looks like Haggar was never going to surprise Jetstone, both Slately and Trem were wise to them. Heh and poor scribe, I hope he doesn't get dispaned by Slately in anger (don't shoot the person writing the message either).

One well known Erf mechanic is that when an Overlord or other faction ruler croaks, all of their subordinate units disband unless they have an heir. Due to their loyalty to Wanda rather than GK or Stanley, many people think that Wanda counts as decrypted units' ruler/overlord, so that were she to croak all of her decrypted would disband.

Indeed, that is how I see it. While we don't know what might happen for sure (just like the Erfers themselves don't) the decrypted are created by the pliers while attuned. They apparently are more closely bound to pliers wielder then to anyone else, like Stanley. It seems quite possible to me that slaying the one attuned to the pliers could prove fatal for the decrypted (though I also think that could be a bit neat and tidy).

Since not just anyone can attune it is strange to imagine the decrypted just standing around fine but without direction. Surely they wouldn't be so bound to a non-attuned holding the pliers or anything like that.

I also fail to see why they think Wanda is the source of GK's power. Its the pliers that give the power, and the wielder can be replaced; if the pliers or titans or whoever chose Wanda, they can just pick another; if its random a new one can be found from the 9000 units; if its some stat requirement I'm sure a croakamancer in the MK will love wielding uber-croakamancy. Maybe its a only one wielder a tool, or the requirements to use or reasons for choosing a wielder are wierd or not understandable, but again I doubt it.

Well Jetstone had the pliers for some time and failed to find someone to attune to them. Slately gave them to Ansom for the war on GK in the hopes it might make him worthy for attunement or something. We have no evidence anyone can control over who attunes and who doesn't - it happens when they are in the right persons hands.

I think Wanda is being given such emphasis by everyone since she is a key component in GK's current war plan. GK is where it is today largely thanks to the power of decryption. Killing her could render the existing decyrpted harmless, if not destroy them all together. Getting rid of her will ensure GK can't just decrypt its way across all of Erf... plus the whole killing a Toolist makes their Titanic mandate a bit shakier.

Charlie paid for the caster who is halving the popping time for the heir. If he didn't Don would have to wait another 20 turns or pick up the slack by himself. Also, yes. Jillian does not care about what her backers want, and that can very well bite her in the backside later on. By attacking the ground column, she's throwing her unit's lives away, and risking losing her funding, which would result in a shortage of rations or a wave of disbandment.
As I said in my first post, I would not want to be a EAQian.

I don't know if she really doesn't care about them. She just isn't willing to bow to their every order (even though in this case it would make sense). She knows how much they have helped. And she must know that if she wants Stanley dead she needs them to survive and continue working together. I think she would balance her options and assume that if she is successful she will force Wanda to retreat, which might not be the optimal outcome in the eyes of Slately, Don or Charlie, but it isn't a total disaster that would see them want her head. Plus Faq is still the only real airpower (besides TV) in the RCCII, so kind of important for taking on airpower GK.

You know, I wonder if they had to pitch those tents, or if the tents just pop when an army is bivouaced in the field then un-pop when the army resumes marching...

I'm curious about that as well (I was also curious about Ansom's commanders table in book one). I could see it as the latter, although maybe they have units that can fabricate things like twolls who make them as needed.

[Drascus]

One well known Erf mechanic is that when an Overlord or other faction ruler croaks, all of their subordinate units disband unless they have an heir. Due to their loyalty to Wanda rather than GK or Stanley, many people think that Wanda counts as decrypted units' ruler/overlord, so that were she to croak all of her decrypted would disband.

Actually they only croak if they're outside a city their side holds. That's why that queen had to order all her troops out of the city. When Parson asked Maggie what would happen if Stanley croaked, she told him they'd be suspended in time until someone came to attack them. They wouldn't get turns anymore, if they were neutral cities.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

I dunno why people are comparing Jillian to other royals. She didn't ask to be a queen, Don King had to talk her into it, and then funded FAQ back into existence. Why assume that she would have Don King's, or anybody else's for that matter, best interests in mind? As the great sage Vin Diesel said in xXx, "If you're gonna ask someone to save the world, you'd better make sure they like it the way it is."

Edit: Think back to what Parson says about defining your enemy's choices, and then apply that to the current scenario. The Barbarian Queen looks more and more the part of the tactical mastermind, albeit to the detriment of the side she's presumed to be helping.

Good point, though I think Jillian has rather simple motivations (or maybe they just appear that way). She'd like Stanley dead and she'd apparently like to have both Ansom and Wanda with her. Unfortunately Wanda (and thus Ansom) are committed to staying with Stanley.

I guess her goals roughly coincide with Don King's (and the RCCII) for the time being.

[DoctorJest]

Charlie paid for the caster who is halving the popping time for the heir. If he didn't Don would have to wait another 20 turns or pick up the slack by himself.

...which he was already willing to do, and didn't even know about the turnamancer.

Also, yes. Jillian does not care about what her backers want, and that can very well bite her in the backside later on.

Maybe. Probably. But...

By attacking the ground column, she's throwing her unit's lives away, and risking losing her funding, which would result in a shortage of rations or a wave of disbandment.

Pure conjecture. We have no reason to believe that Faq isn't generating schmuckers on it's own now. Don King bankrolled getting it up "quick start" with a bunch of heavy units and fliers and then started popping an heir, but it's not we have a reason to believe that it's still running on his schmuckers alone and cannot prop itself up.

It's again the sin of hubris that a forum-goer thinks they've seen a big fat obvious flaw that one of the characters is too stupid to see herself, that everyone in Erfworld is a moron and can't think of the most basic things on their own. Jillian was prepared to face off against her backers if need be, if Wanda and Ansom turned. I don't think she would have forgotten a little fact like she has to feed her people. Even as a barbarian, Jillian ensured she had the basics. She's not stupid. Reckless, maybe, but not stupid.

Have a little faith in Rob's writing that he's not going to have a major character make such a blindingly stupid move as forget that they need food.

[doran]

Holy hell that's an awesome avatar!
Where is it from?

[TamLin]

It's VIctor from "Runaways"; can't recall what issue off the top of my head.

[Neko]

I don't see why everyone thinks that the decrypted will turn to dust with out their croakamancer. They were made by the pliers, which will keep on existing. They seem to be nothing but, super uncroaked, and I don't think that uncroaked disappear with out the croakamancer. They are never before seen units so anythings possible, and its definitly a danger, but I wouldn't call it likely.

Wanda is GK's spearhead. She's the one who is leading, and more importantly creating, the massive army that is working it's way across Erf.

Exactly. Even if croaking Wanda does not Dust GK Decrypted, it removes GK's ability to create more as they roll across Erf. (Assuming no one else in GK attunes to them, of course.) So whether the Decrypted turned Barbarian, Tribal, stayed aligned with GK, stood around and did nothing, reverted to normal Uncroaked, Dusted, or one of a myriad of more creative possibilities - removing the ability to create more Decrypted is a huge win for any side opposed to GK.

[Reclaimer]

Hammer: The only battle we've seen an attuned Stanley engage in directly was the air battle at the Minty Mountain pass. Yes, he lost lots of knights and dwagons, and yes, Jack, helped him escape, but he did engage in hand-to-hand combat with Caesar, and in the end he didn't have a scratch on him.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F147.jpg

Stanley has been known to get his hands dirty. If you're right, then the "plot armor" I've seen so many complaints about has a basis in the game's very rules. Truly troubling for some, I guess.