Book 2 – Text Updates 018

[splintermute]

The other thing is the arken-link-up, whatever it may have been up to *cough*. The inconvenience for a one-turn link-up was what? That Archons felt a bit queasy about it? They had their orders, Charlie was out of commission for just the amount of time that it wouldn't have mattered (he did not actually miss that many turns and occasions to issue orders).

It was a TWO-turn blackout - the dish had been out of commission since yesterday - which explains why he can't cast KingWorld every turn. And since he's using the dish now, he's not linked, which means he can't cast it again for another three turns.

I think KingWorld might have been his test of a superweapon (and maybe also a test to see whether Fox Force Five could manage Charlescomm in his absence) so there's no reason he can't cast it every second or third turn from now on, or maybe experiment with other linked superweapons (note - Hilary said communication blackouts always put everyone in a bad mood, suggesting he may have engaged in other links in the past).

KingWorld has obvious drawbacks:
1) it takes the dish out of commission for 2-turns. His tower archons can manage his forces and mercenary contracts, but can they also provide his unlimited thinkagram services?
2) it's an extremely situational spell (like the zombie-cano was), and it requires a 1-turn lead time to cast, meaning that when you're linking up, you have to anticipate a future disposition of forces - if GK had decided to bypass Jetstone, or wait a turn to consolidate their ground forces, the effort would have been wasted (or postponed, with the result that Charlie would have spent an unnecessary turn with the dish blacked out)
3) if he decides to cast it continuously (i.e. every second turn), he can't manage Charlescomm directly. However, he can cast it semi-continuously (e.g. every third turn), and a take a turn de-linked after each casting to manage the aftermath. An added benefit (if he continues to work with Vanna) is that the linking should get easier each time.

I noticed that some people said that the ArkenDish inspires this kind of loyalty, and that's why it's disturbing/creepy/fake. But if the Arkendish was blacked out why does that fanatical love/like/loyalty still remain?

The dish probably creates that inherent loyalty at the moment of popping - I don't think it would require continuous upkeep.

Archons are as devoted to Charlie as the Decrypted are to Wanda - could the Decrypts be tuned back to Charlie? Is that a trick he's keeping up his sleeve, they are a kind of sleeper agents without even being aware of it? Either that or will their heads will explode like fembots due to the internal conflict if they are ordered to attack Archons?

I don't think they'd be that conflicted - in the past Charlie has offered "full service" contracts which essentially gave archons to the client, and they may have been asked to fight other sides with hired archons.


Other interesting things we learn in this update are that Charlie did not need to be allied with Faq to link with Vanna (I wonder if he can do it to any caster, or, more likely, if the caster has to be willing/ordered to do so), and all these archon actions are occurring outside of GK battlespace (since in Maggie's update, GK's turn started at dawn). Also, Charlie can't directly intervene with archons in whatever's going down with Jillian/Tramennis/Ansom because his turn is over for the day, so he's supporting Jillian through Haggar instead.

[BLANDCorporatio]

gazes_also:

Indeed, we disagree on most anything

First, downtime. There is very little to suggest that this is that big a deal to Charlie as it would be for us. Charlie's the only Telecomm Erfworld has, if you're not happy with the occasional day without limitless thinkagrams well tough luck. There's no Cosmophone in Erfworld. And it would be just the occasional day. Caster links are powerful, but apparently easy to do and undo when you're Charlie, so you can make those when needed, anytime when needed. You don't even need to put Archons at risk during them, unlike Charlie did just now (and THAT was the big cost thing).

As for character motivation and complexity ... meh.

Charlie is "complex" because he is what the plot needs him to be, always. He's an enigma, for the same reason. I hope this walking plot device croaks a terrible croak, and I'm not alone.

Jillian is "complex" because she is chaotic ... as in, self-interestedly-short-sighted, brash and petulant. Once you get to know her carrots and sticks she is utterly predictable and boring. She's got a bit more fans, but I'm still not one of them.

[BLANDCorporatio]

It was a TWO-turn blackout - the dish had been out of commission since yesterday.

It never stops!!!!

Okay. It was out of commission since yesterday. It is back in commission today, obviously, so that Charlie can speak to Sammy.

How many days has it been out of commision?****

KingWorld has obvious drawbacks:
1) it takes the dish out of commission for 2-turns. His tower archons can manage his forces and mercenary contracts, but can they also provide his unlimited thinkagram services?

With this, and whatever other links are possible, Charlie does not NEED the Thinkagram service. He could, if he wanted to, rule evrything, because-

2) it's an extremely situational spell (like the zombie-cano was), and it requires a 1-turn lead time to cast, meaning that when you're linking up, you have to anticipate a future disposition of forces - if GK had decided to bypass Jetstone, or wait a turn to consolidate their ground forces, the effort would have been wasted (or postponed, with the result that Charlie would have spent an unnecessary turn with the dish blacked out)

There's rarely a situation where a premature end of (the enemy's) turn is useless. Somebody explained how this can make it very difficult on an attacker, then there's chokepoints that you can end turn at, then there's the archon infiltration ability, meaning you could place a few near some poorly defended enemy town (apparently Charlie can scout very well) and end their turn as soon as they're having it.

*cough* If ending turns by Caster Link were possible of course.

And your third drawback ... is that a drawback? So ok, he can't nuke every turn. Maybe he can only drop a nuke once every week.

He's the only one with nukes.

And so on and so forth. Particularly since the ArkenDish has been out-of-commission before, suggesting Charlie has previously engaged in links, this leaves a few questions un-asnwered.

You know, like I said in a different thread, the Pliers are pretty danged powerful, and the story then proceeded to show us the consequence of that: GK not only rebuilt from scratch but managed to demolish Unaroyal and get the MK worried.

Charlie's been sitting on similar power since he's got the ArkenDish, basically. Why doesn't he use it? One answer is that he doesn't want to rule Erfworld. I am sympathetic to that notion, so ok maybe Charlie does not want to rule the world. But then, why not rescue Unaroyal? Why not crumble GK directly?

PS:
*****:

Here's my shocking answer: 0.

Charlie enters link at end of his turn. Enemy turn happens, during which time Linka-Charlie does some defensive casting. Charlie releases the link at the start of his next turn, effectively not missing one turn of command. (Though, the Thinkagram thing will still be a problem, because those Thinkagrams would happen on other people's turns anyway).

EDIT: chronology check. Charlie enters linkup on, presumably, his turn, "yesterday". Hence, ArkenDish out of commission etc. "Today" (Charlie time) Archons wait and scout. Turn passes (so in this case Charlie missed a turn), but by Sammy's turn, Charlie is out of link (links are makeable and breakable out of turn, see the whole Maggie-Wanda-Sizemore incident).

So ok, 1 turn was missed by Charlie. This once. I see no reason why the sequence I've described above wouldn't work. In fact, since links are makeable and breakable out of turn, they can be made/broken on the very turn of the opponent.

There must have been some other limitation that prevented that (maybe long distance link break is ok, but long distance link form is not?).

[Squall83]

Even though it has been mentioned twice already: It's over NINE THOUSAAAAND!!!
I love that joke every time I read/hear it. ^^

[Sunfall]

Sammy is a textbook example of not seeing "strategy for the tactics". If Dickie were wiped out and Sammy managed to make a new side, he'd be an even worse joke than Haggar already is.

As for the blackout, I think the only reason Charlie could afford it in this situation is precisely because he IS getting the cold shoulder from the RCC. Having clients means needing to be available for contract modifications and such. Being willing to have the arkendish out of action even for one turn is a big indicator of just how much business has fallen off. Even then its still a risk since Charlie has to act as ruler and warlord simultaneously, so any time the dish is out I'd imagine all of his archons everywhere lose bonuses. Possibly even bonuses to hide from Sammy. Yeah, business isn't good.

On the other hand, threatening Sammy could be a mistake. If Wanda manages to decrypt Sammy she'd learn about Charlie's involvement, and so would Parson. At a guess I'd say she'd immediately try to use that information as an excuse for her losses.

Okay. It was out of commission since yesterday. It is back in commission today, obviously, so that Charlie can speak to Sammy.

The ghostly face means that Charlie might not be using the Arkendish but just having an archon do the thinkamancy for him, or if he's not out of juice he might be using personal thinkamancy abilities for high priority communications. The dish may still be out of commission, and may continue to be out of commission for an unknown amount of time.

[BLANDCorporatio]

The ghostly face means that Charlie might not be using the Arkendish but just having an archon do the thinkamancy for him. The dish may still be out of commission, and may continue to be out of commission for an unknown amount of time. Even Charlie may be out of juice.

How can you tell?! From what I gather, that ghostly face is the scout currently spying on Haggar's capital.

All the rest is "may be out of juice", "may be out of commission" ... too many mays.

[Sunfall]

How can you tell?! From what I gather, that ghostly face is the scout currently spying on Haggar's capital.

I suppose that's possible too, but that actually doesn't invalidate any of the possibilities I've advanced.

SUre, I freely admit that its speculation. But so is assuming that the dish blackout is over.

[BLANDCorporatio]

It doesn't because from a rigurous point of view there nothing to invalidate- nothing has been established!

You come in and say "may be out of {juice|commission}". How do you know?

And yes, I think the burden of proof falls on you to show that. So far Charlie's been inexhaustible.

[Sunfall]

Not inexaustible enough to maintain a thinkagram with Jillian simultaneous with one to Sammy, apparently. The 'unlimited thinkagrams' feature of the arkendish strongly suggests to me that ordinarily he can handle simultaneous communications just fine. When the dish is working, that is.

[OvaltinePatrol]

Hilary as in Duff, all pop singers, save Paris

Actually Paris has a dance track or two out, heard them on the Satellite radio's dance channel.

I have a distinct feeling these Archons are immensely weaker than the ones Parson had to fight with his Dwagons. I would have imagined six Archons could've easily wiped out Sammy's column from what I'd seen of them previously.

Well Jetstone did pay for a lot of leverage, synergy, and paradigm during the Battle for GK. And Charlie needed to devote some leverage on Hagar's Capital, so he probably just sent some low-end archons to watch Sammy.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Not inexaustible enough to maintain a thinkagram with Jillian simultaneous with one to Sammy, apparently. The 'unlimited thinkagrams' feature of the arkendish strongly suggests to me that ordinarily he can handle simultaneous communications just fine. When the dish is working, that is.

Or maybe the one thing Charlie can't do is have two intelligent conversations at once, ArkenDish or not.

Just like pretty much everyone would rather focus on one conversation or another. A natural, simple assumption that does not fly in the face of the ArkenDish's so far limitless magical potential.

[Sunfall]

Not inexaustible enough to maintain a thinkagram with Jillian simultaneous with one to Sammy, apparently. The 'unlimited thinkagrams' feature of the arkendish strongly suggests to me that ordinarily he can handle simultaneous communications just fine. When the dish is working, that is.

Or maybe the one thing Charlie can't do is have two intelligent conversations at once, ArkenDish or not.

Just like pretty much everyone would rather focus on one conversation or another. A natural, simple assumption that does not fly in the face of the ArkenDish's so far limitless magical potential.

Its already been established that time doesn't flow like that when forces are in separate hexes, according to what I've read in the summer updates. THere's no synchrony beyond the beginning and end of turns, or at least that any synchrony is up to the principals involved. And if he can't hold 2 intelligent conversations at once, then that aspect of the dish is a good deal weaker than I would have originally thought.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Its already been established that time doesn't flow like that when forces are in separate hexes, according to what I've read in the summer updates. THere's no synchrony beyond the beginning and end of turns, or at least that any synchrony is up to the principals involved.

Actually, what has been established is that sequence of events is the same. Duration may differ. So if Charlie were to have two conversations at once, everybody would see thos conversations as happening at once in Erfworld relativity.

[Sunfall]

Its already been established that time doesn't flow like that when forces are in separate hexes, according to what I've read in the summer updates. THere's no synchrony beyond the beginning and end of turns, or at least that any synchrony is up to the principals involved.

Actually, what has been established is that sequence of events is the same. Duration may differ. So if Charlie were to have two conversations at once, everybody would see thos conversations as happening at once in Erfworld relativity.

Effectively the same thing in this case, since the convo with Jillian started first. The only way synchrony would be required is if Charlie was relaying Jillian to Sammy or vice versa. The conversations have nothing to do with each other.

[Cyanshine]

Oh noes! They killed Avril! BASTARDS!

[BLANDCorporatio]

Effectively the same thing in this case, since the convo with Jillian started first. The only way synchrony would be required is if Charlie was relaying Jillian to Sammy or vice versa. The conversations have nothing to do with each other.

Ok then, so why did Charlie tell Jillian anything about something turning up? By your time-is-relative argument, the conversation with her can be as short or long as necessary to allow him to be in only one conversation at a time.

And this requires only that Charlie prefer to talk to a single person at a time. Something he's been known to do ever since patching Parson through way back in Book 1(he's got secretaries patching in calls; would he need them if he were usually available at any time?).

Oh noes! They killed Avril! BASTARDS!

Agreed. Of the mentioned lot, the most sympathetic.

[Raza]

Sounds a lot like the link required the blackout. Which should finally shut up the kingworld discussion, thank the titans.

What is this Kingworld that you speak of?

But seriously much as I want to ignore it, it just keeps pullin me back in. To wit,

This update provides a very good comparison between what I'd call fake and true costs. Where again cost is some umbrella term for making something difficult to use (can be resource requirements, ethics, personal sacrifice etc).

Charlie apparently sent a lot of archons on risky missions. He does that all the time but usually those are mercenary missions, for which he gets loads of moolah.

What he's been doing lately with his Archons is definitely not his usual MO. Stepping out of that comfort zone- nice for us to read about. It's also natural to assume that Charlie won't risk his Archons like this often.

The other thing is the arken-link-up, whatever it may have been up to *cough*. The inconvenience for a one-turn link-up was what? That Archons felt a bit queasy about it? They had their orders, Charlie was out of commission for just the amount of time that it wouldn't have mattered (he did not actually miss that many turns and occasions to issue orders).

That is not enough to explain why Charlie wouldn't do links as often as necessary for whatever nefarious goal. He doesn't even need Archons in the field for those to work.

Iunno dude, I think the archon queasiness is a bit of a strawman. From what we know, Chalrie's got loads of simultaneous operations running all over erfworld, he provides telecommunications for more income than that, and he's got any number of other passive benefits from having his dish running (*cough* thinkamancy tracking *cough*).

For him to shut down his dish means everything he does is being much less perfectly coordinated (as this update sets an example of - those archons needed orders but were fatally put on hold because charlie was momentarily unavailable), he forgoes that turn's worth of thinkagram income, and he misses out on an unknown number of potentially useful pieces of intelligence. His entire side runs on that network, moreso even than GK ran of the eyemancy table.

Now granted, this does not strictly stop him from repeating the turn ending spell in some overpowering strategy resolving around repeat castings, but I would say that what he's got set up currently is at least as powerful and more useful to his preffered approach to grand strategy. Every game's got a bunch of high-powered tricks that with the right resources and coordination can easily overcome what are supposed to be big challenges, but those still have to content with often sensitive conditions for being pulled, not to mention each other. That's how any game works, on a powergamer's level; incredibly optimised one-trick-ponies fighting to get the circumstances right for them to apply their one overpowering tactic; but if your fun comes out of coming up with that stuff and you've got a few competitors on the same level, those games are still lots of fun. In that context and as a powergamer myself, I don't find kingworld all that worrisome.

Archons have a lot of things in common that define their unit type. They're the corporate western ideal of an employable young female; classically pretty and well groomed, eager to please, polite, hard-working, satisfied being kept at the bottom of the chain of command no matter how well they do their jobs and perfectly willing to extend that attitude into their personal lives, but with just enough Hollywood sass and toughness to feel like a challenge. The secretary of every boss's dreams.

That's a nice write-up actually, but it contains one of my knee-jerk button-words ("western").

Ahem. So I take it that the eastern corporate ideal for employable young female is much the same, only without the sass and toughness?

Thanks! Corporate culture is pretty much a western invention, though. I'd call the rest imitators, but in fairness we all but stuffed it down their throats... =D

But I'll readily admit there's just as much wrong with most any other culture in the world. Partially different things, though, and within western culture there exists enough of an illusion of having all the answers that it bears repeat noting that we have our own unique problems and stupidities.

[splintermute]

PS:
*****:

Here's my shocking answer: 0.

Charlie enters link at end of his turn. Enemy turn happens, during which time Linka-Charlie does some defensive casting. Charlie releases the link at the start of his next turn, effectively not missing one turn of command. (Though, the Thinkagram thing will still be a problem, because those Thinkagrams would happen on other people's turns anyway).

EDIT: chronology check. Charlie enters linkup on, presumably, his turn, "yesterday". Hence, ArkenDish out of commission etc. "Today" (Charlie time) Archons wait and scout. Turn passes (so in this case Charlie missed a turn), but by Sammy's turn, Charlie is out of link (links are makeable and breakable out of turn, see the whole Maggie-Wanda-Sizemore incident).

So ok, 1 turn was missed by Charlie. This once. I see no reason why the sequence I've described above wouldn't work. In fact, since links are makeable and breakable out of turn, they can be made/broken on the very turn of the opponent.

If your chronology were possible, there would be no reason for the archon to consider it a "blackout." Admittedly she wouldn't be able to communicate with Charlie for a portion of "yesterday's" turn, and she wouldn't be able to communicate with him out of turn, but I don't think that would be too problematic for her.

Charlie has definitely missed at least one turn (today's) - yes, he has use of the dish back, but not use of his archons - their turn has ended for the day. The way the communication blackout was described suggests Charlie needed to enter the link at the beginning of yesterday's turn (either that, or not use any of the dish's powers yesterday, which is equivalent) - yes, he could have managed his forces before entering the link, but so could Fox Force Five, so that's not really a distinction.

Also - point three just demonstrated that he couldn't cast it every turn.

Your issue seems to be: "why hasn't he conquered the world already?" However, I'm operating under the assumption that this is the first time KingWorld has been cast - you don't just immediately go from your first successful nuke test to instant world domination. I do agree with you that, now that he's had his successful nuke test, he can cast it every second or third turn from now on. Yes, he can conquer the world now if:

a) he figures out the optimal way to use KingWorld and turnamancer/archon/allied army positioning for each casting, and
b) he wants to

I have no doubt he can figure out a) (although Parson might be able to develop a counter-strategy) - which means it would all boil down to b).

[Sunfall]

Ok then, so why did Charlie tell Jillian anything about something turning up? By your time-is-relative argument, the conversation with her can be as short or long as necessary to allow him to be in only one conversation at a time.

And this requires only that Charlie prefer to talk to a single person at a time. Something he's been known to do ever since patching Parson through way back in Book 1(he's got secretaries patching in calls; would he need them if he were usually available at any time?).

Oh noes! They killed Avril! BASTARDS!

Agreed. Of the mentioned lot, the most sympathetic.

If the length of a thinkagram affects the juice expended (in a non-arkendish thinkagram) then he may have had to end it for juice conservation reasons. Thinking on it now tho, to be fair, the way he cut Jillians off didn't sound like it was due to low juice so I'm going to admit your argument is stronger on that point ( I try not to debate just to win or just for the sake of debate).

I eagerly await better evidence on whether or not the arkendish is back up and running tho, since at this point there is NO concrete evidence that it is. THe commo with Sammy is purely circumstantial on that point since Charlie DOES have plenty of other ways to send at least a limited number of thinkagrams through normal means.

[The Black Hand]

I have only one thing to say about this.

Charlie . . . you, sir, are truly a Magnificent Bastard!

(Yeah, I linked it to TVTropes. So sue me.)

It's kind of easy to be an MB when you have essentially -- for the purposes of nearly every context that we've seen so far -- unparalleled and in many cases effectively unlimited information and power at your disposal.

Ah, but it's the ability to use that unlimited information and power intelligently that separates the Magnificent Bastard from your typical Near-Omniscient Villain/Hero.

The Near-Omniscient Villain/Hero will just use that power and information to crush his enemies where they stand.

"Ah, my enemies are going to attack my nearly-completed (insert massive flying/spaceborne/ground-based weapon system here). What they don't know is that the rest of the work is just fluff (and/or to get it mobile) . . . the important part - the weapon itself - is fully operational, and I can crush them at will even if they strike the base where it's being built!"

The Magnificent Bastard, however . . . even with that unlimited power and information, he'll play one side against another (Let's You and Him Fight), or offer his services to one side in exchange for something that will benefit him - e.g., Shmuckers, information that doesn't seem significant to his ally of the moment (but is actually more critical than said ally thinks), or "a favor to be determined at a later date". Long story short, he uses his abilities indirectly, whereas an NOV/H uses them directly.

Besides, everyone knows the Near-Omniscient Villain/Hero's agenda.

Nobody knows what Charlie's agenda is, except Charlie himself - and he's not telling.

So . . . yeah.