Book 2 – Text Updates 020

[The Black Hand]

The fact that people here are posting their tactical ideas raises a question in my mind:

Based on the degree to which we have seen information presented in comics or updates as if in response to question raised in the reaction threads, could it be that Wanda's explicit solicitation of suggestions is only ostensibly directed at the warlords, i.e. that it is really targeted at us?

I'm reasonably confident that Rob knows what he wants to do. Still, it wouldn't surprise me to see the next few comics or updates at least discuss ideas that readers are already submitting here.

I don't know whether it is or not. All I know is, I know what I'd do if I were in Wanda's situation:

1) Confuse and distract the enemy (veil low-level archons as high-level units, make it seem like said high-level units are in more places than one, maybe even try flashmobbing the attackers etc.)

2) Keep an eye out for inbound enemy fliers/anti-air units. Take out the lighter units first, then deal with heavier ones - if you focus on the heavier ones first, you're likely to get shredded by the light units.

3) Above all, KEEP MOVING WITHIN THE HEX. It's difficult - albeit not impossible - to hit a moving target.

[Anton Gaist]

Somewhere, this conversation is taking place:

- Up and at it, boys, we've got an order to fill!
- What is it this time, boss?
- Key lime pies, boys, enough key lime pies to feed an army!

[ftl]

I'm reasonably confident that Rob knows what he wants to do. Still, it wouldn't surprise me to see the next few comics or updates at least discuss ideas that readers are already submitting here.

You know, I've usually disliked that Rob seems to respond to readers comments in-story, but if he does that it would actually be pretty cool. As long as it's a text update and not a comic, comics are rare and deserve better.

[Fafnir13]

All I can think about is how confused anyone reading only the book will be when they see Wanda without the hair.
Also, why isn't this moment getting put in the book? It's such great character development.

[Matuse]

Wanda with Bride Of Frankenstein Hair Helmet and pale white war paint + planned dance-fight = MONSTER MASH!

[BLANDCorporatio]

OMG Infidel, you're around! 'tis been a while since I saw you here.

Sigh, too bad I go to sea soon and won't be able to read updates for maybe months at a time.

Good luck with the deployment then, and count your blessings. That way you have more to chew than mere morsels every five days.

Out of curiosity, are you on a submarine? Or is it the case that, if you told me, you'd have to kill me?

We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine ...

Okay, now to the update.

Predictably, this update makes me happy. More avatar fodder, finally, weee! I am a bit miffed that we don't get to hear the tactical council, but it makes sense- it will be something that will show up later. Anytime now. During the next few years Maybe we might even see YKW display some of that tough talking arrow-deflecting competence again. But until then it's better to not show the plans, unless the author specifically intends the plans to go awry.

That's interesting. Is it me, or does Parson have that effect on everyone? All important units on his side know he is a genius, but somehow, they all strive to prove they can do just fine without him. Ansom thinks this way. Stanley thinks this way. Now Wanda as well. Generalized inferiority complex?

Good point. Well, in the case of Stanley this is probably right; in the case of Ansom, maybe a mix of this and resentment for being defeated and then snubbed on the offer to become the minion, as Ansom originally intended I think.

As for Wanda, I think Jeivar hints to what's maybe going on.

IF Wanda is beginning to question her (nominal) allegiance to Stanley, then it may make sense to "practice" being independent of Parson's council. He may not like the decrypted much, nor Wanda, and Wanda might know. And besides, for now Parson is Stanley's unit.

I don't think that this is what's happening, not exactly. I still don't think Wanda will turn any time soon, she had her chance at the end of TBfGK. More likely, she's been thrown a curveball by Fate, and is trying to prove that she can get out of it by reaching to what is closest to her, and also develop her own resources. After all, you won't get very far if before each step you need some dude to give you the ok from a thousand miles away.

I'm reasonably confident that Rob knows what he wants to do. Still, it wouldn't surprise me to see the next few comics or updates at least discuss ideas that readers are already submitting here.

You know, I've usually disliked that Rob seems to respond to readers comments in-story, but if he does that it would actually be pretty cool. As long as it's a text update and not a comic, comics are rare and deserve better.

For one, any plan that involves Wanda will probably have to wait until the Ansom situation gets resolved. Which may take several pages, some of which will be in the GK war room. IF Mr. Balder doesn't know the details of how Wanda's getting out of this one, he has time to figure it out.

Two, what this tells us first and foremost is that Wanda, likely, WILL get out of this. Let's say that the probablity of a plan to pan out well is inversely proportional to the fraction of it that the reader is aware of.

Three, much as it's fun to speculate, we're doing this for our own benefit; the story might NOT benefit from swaying to what we say here, no matter how reasonable it may seem at the time. IMO (but not a too strongly held one), it's better for an author to kinda ignore reader speculations and recommendations. Supposedly an author has a vision for the story, or some core of it that seems to snowball on its own inside their mind; a story written by committee might not be that good.

BUT, I like this bit of paranoia, keep it up!

Why not, I might try to even come up with a plan, but with these blasted-casters around who knows what anymore?

[BLANDCorporatio]

Ok, plans.

Fliers indeed seem less of a threat to Wanda and her minions now. Archers, as my avatar puts it, would be the trouble.

Not knowing just what kind of thing is possible out-of-turn, let's speculate that maneuvering within the same region (sub-hex even) is possible. After all, Sylvia, Jack, Ossomer and Wanda all gathered to talk right now.

So a simple idea is- get high, really high, again- at least, Wanda should do that. In fact, if it were possible to "stack" the dwagons, one flying above the other, so that all the way up this tower of wings and bad attitude is Wanda, invisible to the archers below.

What dwagons should be put to the bottom, as shields, is debatable. Losing several Yellows may not hurt the cause much, but sometimes it may be even better to sacrifice a high-def, high-HP unit to reduce casualties.

Another idea is to move a lot, like The Black Hand suggested. Not knowing how Erf physics works though, I don't know how well this works. Maybe you can't move "too fast" out of turn, maybe the enemy gets a to-hit bonus regardless of what you do etc. But it certainly makes sense as an idea.

A combination then, with some dwagons flying low, maybe a Warlord there as well for some local bonus (yeah how does that work?), Wanda flying high, everybody zigging and zagging in a frenzy as much as the out-of-turn condition allows. Wanda can't get out, so the only defense is to be hard to hit.

The biggest unknown is, of course, Jack. Just what he is able to produce with the remaining juice is unknown, and without that we cannot make suggestions that are too useful.

Finally, one more idea. It is craptastic though.

So, let's say Wanda can't attack any archers below. Let's say she tries, what happens? Do the missiles just stop at the region border, like the arrows did a few pages before? Well in that case ... I'm sure I don't need to spell out the rest.

[splintermute]

Arrows might be able to penetrate a wall of acidic battle-crap. Maybe a wall of gum?

I like the going up idea - is there a limit to arrow range, or can they hit anywhere within a hex? Parson had similar questions during the summer updates (is there a height limit to hexes? can he use low orbit archons as recon satellites?) - what if he actually experimented and found out the answer, and tells the GK airforce to just ride out the turn completely unscathed by hiding out in the stratosphere?

[Welf von Ehrwald]

So at some point Ossomer must have been declared the heir. I can't find where Ansom was stated to be the heir, but the wiki says he was, so it must be some place.

Ansom says he is the heir here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F091.jpg

In one of the klogs parson mentions that infantry can be promoted to warlords, but only in the capital. It seems sensible that a unit can also only be promoted to heir in the capital. A heir can be replaced at any time, without dying. We know that because Don king has ordered a heir to replace Ceasar. And he planned to offer Ceasar a nice "coastal level 2" as retirement.

Another suggestion: Wanda still is a croakamancer and can use the "trioxon" maxx-uncrak spell. if the croak a bunch of defenders and their bodies fall into the city, she can animate them and order them to attack the rest of the defenders. Maybe she has even access to an "mass-decrypt" spell, or can decrypt over the boundary of city zones. With Jack's help she could try to fly very deep and decrypt fallen defenders. If she causes enough havoc under the archers she has a real chance.

Or she can turn to Jillian.

[BLANDCorporatio]

what if he actually experimented and found out the answer, and tells the GK airforce to just ride out the turn completely unscathed by hiding out in the stratosphere?

Breathing masks optional

(The going high idea was not to outrange the arrows- it may be impossible in Erf physics!- but to simply shield the top by having big beefy stuff floating on the bottom; but hey, that's why ideas get bounced, more people see more things).

Oh and yeah, gum may be a better shield. Who knows. Some chewing gums though are utter boop.

[regisminae]

Some chewing gums don't completely immobilize people for the better part of a day.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Point, point. This cwap may yet fly!

[Infidel]

OMG Infidel, you're around! 'tis been a while since I saw you here.

Sigh, too bad I go to sea soon and won't be able to read updates for maybe months at a time.

Good luck with the deployment then, and count your blessings. That way you have more to chew than mere morsels every five days.

Out of curiosity, are you on a submarine? Or is it the case that, if you told me, you'd have to kill me?

We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine ...

Heyas.

Nah, I'm on a Naval oiler. So I will be on a ship that supplies diesel and jet fuel to navy ships at sea. We go where the navy goes though, so the deployments lengths are the same. Right now I'm expecting to be away for more than eight months. Except, as a merchant marine I get paid a lot more than I did in the navy. Higher base pay rate and I get overtime pay too. Unfortunately, ship email is text only, or I'd ask for some kind of email installment system for erfworld. I've been around, but most of the updates seemed straightforward enough that the people commenting seemed to have all the bases covered.

I'd really like to see how the brainstorming session goes. How will the others react, because somehow, I don't see the comic update covering that very well. Jack particularly spent a lot of time with Parson during his brainstorming sessions, so he should have something positive to contribute, and Sylvia always had something to contribute to Ansom's sessions too, the real question is Ossomer. But I suppose Rob is planning a operational surprise here, so we won't get the details, unless it's maybe a flashback after the action. But, I do expect the forum's suggestions will be rendered superfluous and perhaps seriously erroneous. Either a new ability will be unveiled, or a creative use of some known ability in an unexpected way.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Well, I know for a fact that the flying cwap defense will not happen. Because it would be incredibly silly ... though plausibly effective ...

A barrage of levitating Chewing gum to slow down the arrows (it doesn't have to be, it MUST not be, 100% arrow-proof) however seems like a suitably out-of-the-box idea. I'm eagerly awaiting to see how Erfworld tops that.

[name lips]

Jack is very low on juice. He was low even before the Ossimer capture. I think the "ideas" Wanda is going to get will have to exclude excessive Foolamancy. The archons can do some, but they're no Jack.

Since archer units can simply attack air units in the same hex, real-world tactics like "fly up out of arrow range" probably wouldn't work.

They can't land and hide somewhere on the ground, I believe, since they're over the city. It would count as a separate "zone." Like air units at tBfGK couldn't attack units in the courtyard.

So I'm not sure what she's hoping for... it doesn't look good.

[Snowtitan]

Silly question, but where in the laws of Erfworld Physics dos it say they can't still go ahead with the original plan..
They have no Hex boundaries to go through. They're thinking defence because that's what you do when it's not your turn, but why can't they attack!

I'm reasonably confident that Rob knows what he wants to do. Still, it wouldn't surprise me to see the next few comics or updates at least discuss ideas that readers are already submitting here.

You know, I've usually disliked that Rob seems to respond to readers comments in-story, but if he does that it would actually be pretty cool. As long as it's a text update and not a comic, comics are rare and deserve better.

I'm Pretty sure he only does it to clear up confusion

[BLANDCorporatio]

Jack is very low on juice. He was low even before the Ossimer capture. I think the "ideas" Wanda is going to get will have to exclude excessive Foolamancy. The archons can do some, but they're no Jack.

True that. But, Magic can be a powerful asset if used cleverly; you don't need much of it. A little veil/whatever else Jack can do may be a big difference.

Since archer units can simply attack air units in the same hex, real-world tactics like "fly up out of arrow range" probably wouldn't work.

That's my impression too. But it seems that things like position and line of sight still matter in Erfworld, and that's why I said fly-high for Wanda. It's the lower fliers, and there have to be lower fliers in my suggestion, will take the brunt of the damage.

Silly question, but where in the laws of Erfworld Physics dos it say they can't still go ahead with the original plan..
They have no Hex boundaries to go through. They're thinking defence because that's what you do when it's not your turn, but why can't they attack!

Exactly! Why can't they just rush Slately now? Is crossing zones impossible? What happens if they try to lob projectiles at something outside their reachable area, like the Jetstone archers did? And there comes the Flying cwap Chewing Gum Defense!

[Infidel]

But perversely, she did not want Parson's advice this time. Somehow, she felt it was now simply time to apply what he had taught her. She cleared her throat.

That's interesting. Is it me, or does Parson have that effect on everyone? All important units on his side know he is a genius, but somehow, they all strive to prove they can do just fine without him. Ansom thinks this way. Stanley thinks this way. Now Wanda as well. Generalized inferiority complex?

The thing to keep in mind here is that other leaders ORDER but Parson TEACHES. Ansom want's to do things his own way. He refused to benefit from his dealings with Parson insisting his way was better. But Wanda wants to do it Parson's way. When someone teaches you, there is always some point where you want to apply that knowledge. But also, following another's example is about the biggest degree of respect you can give them. That's leadership, not just getting others to follow your orders, but getting others to follow your example. Now Wanda is under a very human desire to prove herself. That doesn't reflect badly on her relationship with Parson at all.

[splintermute]

Silly question, but where in the laws of Erfworld Physics dos it say they can't still go ahead with the original plan..
They have no Hex boundaries to go through. They're thinking defence because that's what you do when it's not your turn, but why can't they attack!

Exactly! Why can't they just rush Slately now? Is crossing zones impossible? What happens if they try to lob projectiles at something outside their reachable area, like the Jetstone archers did? And there comes the Flying cwap Chewing Gum Defense!

Yes, crossing zones is impossible. Parson covered it in one of his klogs - special rules apply to enemy units in a city: they have to expend move to cross between the city zones, the four zones being airspace, tunnels, outer walls, and garrison, the garrison being comprised of tower (airspace-adjacent), courtyard (wall-adjacent), and dungeon (tunnel-adjacent) areas. Since GK's turn is over, all of their units have 0 move.

They're in the same position as the archon reinforcements in book 1 - after Charlie ended turn, they couldn't attack any garrison units, despite having powerful ranged attacks.



Also, do archers have infinite ammo bandanas, or is there a finite number of shots they can take per turn? If the latter, then some combination of veils and beefy cannon fodder will be incredibly valuable.

[Dark Arbiter]

Same with Ossomer, when we first meet him in the summer updates, he's introduced as the new Jetstone heir.

Ah, forgot about that. Good call.

I have to take that back slightly. It's in book 2, after Ossomer is decrypted, Parson says that Ossomer is/was Jetstone's heir.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-24.jpg

So at some point Ossomer must have been declared the heir. I can't find where Ansom was stated to be the heir, but the wiki says he was, so it must be some place.

Hmmm... so there's actually no evidence that what I said initially wasn't right. When he refers to "Jetstone's Heir," he could just as easily be referring to Ansom as Ossomer.

EDIT: What I said originally:

My thought is that perhaps the Heir is such as part of the unit type - sort of like a caster can be a Foolamancer, Croakamancer, etc. The Heir is the Heir no matter what, and so Slately can't simply say, "Oh, Ossomer is the Heir now." If that's the case, then they can't promote anyone else until Ansom croaks, because a side can only have one Heir at a time.

Otherwise, I feel like Slately would have appointed Tramennis the Heir at the same time that we saw him get promoted to Chief Warlord.

EDIT 2: Looking at it again, I guess he implies that Wanda just captured Ossomer because he's the Heir and blah blah blah. My idea's back down the tubes.