Book 2 – Text Updates 021

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby splintermute » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:46 am

Oberon wrote:My bolds for emphasis. He is saying that the living members of Wanda's force can be effectively doubled by being Decrypted once they are killed. Forcing the attackers to expend twice the resources needed to kill them in the first place. And although Jack didn't mention it, perhaps more than twice the resources, assuming that Decrypted may receive a combat bonus while led by a Masterclass Croakamancer, similar to the bonus uncroaked get when similarly led. Even if the Decrypted ability to take damage is not augmented, if they gain a combat bonus they will inflict more damage and this will kill attackers at a faster rate than they did while alive, thus reducing the amount of damage the attackers can inflict.

GK can't kill the attackers at a faster rate, or at any rate (unless the corpses manage to fall to the ground) - the whole point of their situation is that they're sitting ducks without any ability to retaliate - unless you were referring to the Jetstone fliers, but a few unipegataurs and orlies should be dead before any living GK units start croaking.

However, they might more than double their effectiveness if Jack gets croaked - decrypting heals damaged units, and might restore full juice to a partially spent caster.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Oberon » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:29 am

Spot wrote:If one cannot cast on the enemy's turn, then how is it that Vanna ever got the chance to cast her spell to force-end the enemy's turn?

Either Vanna never did cast the force-turn-end spell, and it's therefore still Gobwin Knob's turn, or you are mistaken.
You have overlooked the third option: The rules changed due to author fiat. I am not mistaken, go read 64, it is quite clear what the rules were, before they needed to change in order to accommodate other plot elements.
splintermute wrote:GK can't kill the attackers at a faster rate, or at any rate (unless the corpses manage to fall to the ground) - the whole point of their situation is that they're sitting ducks without any ability to retaliate [...]
Um, no. We've never seen off-turn units just have to absorb attacks without being able to fight back. Quite the contrary, we just saw Ansom's pikers stab Sammy to death while it was Sammy's turn. If attacked Wanda's units can fight back. What they can't do off-turn is initiate the combat. I think. This is a little fuzzy as well, since the uncroaked warlords on the wounded dwagons were ordered not to initiate combat against Jilian and the Archons, off-turn. Why order them not to attack if they can not? But regardless, attacked units have always fought back. Well, except in the case of Jillian against the tower defenses and Wanda. But the Spacerock tower defenses are probably not enough to kill Wanda's stack alone, or there would be no need to even mention the archers, casters, and few flying units and warlords present.
Last edited by Oberon on Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Roketter » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:35 am

Once again the coalition will open Pandora's Box only to have it explode on their faces.

Every drwagon they kill, Wanda will decryt and bring back to life. They'll have to kill it twice for it to be any use. But it's not just that she's doubling her attack force's hitpoints. Once decrypted, dwagons will have all the bonuses akin to decrypted units with a croakmancer on their hex holding the arkanepliers.

Basically, they'll have to fight every dwagon twice, and it'll be much stronger the second time. I predict fail for Faq. Also, if Jack dies and gets decrypted... ther's the chance that he'll come back with full juice.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby GlueDuck » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:42 am

So, if this plan works Wanda will then have a bunch of decrypted dwagons and possibly a decrypted caster. If Stanley waas pissed over loosing a couple of dwagons back in book 1 I can't wait to see how he will react this time.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Roketter » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:44 am

Oberon wrote:
Steve-D wrote:Wanda can save decrypyed units from croaking (or re-croaking?). How, exactly? They turn to dust; nothing to save.

Can she heal decrypyed units?
I am often amused by the way different people interpret what appears to me to be something completely different. Jack seemed to spell his advice to Wanda out very clearly:
Jack wrote:"Consider. All of these dwagons are alive, as are most of the riders, as am I. We can take a great deal of damage before we are croaked. Defenses will be used, arrows will be used, juice will be spent on us. And then..."

He leaned forward and tapped the Arkenpliers with his cane, affronting the Decrypted and annoying Wanda. "...must be spent again.
My bolds for emphasis. He is saying that the living members of Wanda's force can be effectively doubled by being Decrypted once they are killed. Forcing the attackers to expend twice the resources needed to kill them in the first place. And although Jack didn't mention it, perhaps more than twice the resources, assuming that Decrypted may receive a combat bonus while led by a Masterclass Croakamancer, similar to the bonus uncroaked get when similarly led. Even if the Decrypted ability to take damage is not augmented, if they gain a combat bonus they will inflict more damage and this will kill attackers at a faster rate than they did while alive, thus reducing the amount of damage the attackers can inflict.

I'm disturbed by Jack's suggestion that he veil Wanda. This is a direct contradiction of one of the rules of magic, as explained to the readers in Book 1 Pg 64 When Parson lists all of the reasons they can not veil their troops in the field, "we can't cast on the enemy's turn" is one of them, and it is the only limitation he listed which is still in force, since Jack is in the hex and since Jack is no longer a member of the Eyemancer link. With both Wanda and Sizemore present it would be ridiculous for this not to be corrected were it not the actual case. Especially Sizemore, who had just been teaching Parson about how magic works, should have spoken up to correct him if Parson had made such an elementary misstatement about the rules of magic.

This case can't even be hand waved away by citing the "casting defensively is allowed off-turn", since first a bat and then Ansom's entire stack had entered the central hex of the doughnut. This would have allowed a defensive veil to be cast, except for the fact that casting on the enemy's turn can not be done. Except now it can.



I think the situation's different because right now they are in combat. Defenders can fight their attackers, if not there is no way to explain how the caster from Jetstone could double or quadruple the arrows while *THEY* where being attacked. So casters can cast when in combat because it springs every unit in the hex to the offensive, or definsive, be it swing swords or cast spells.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Thydron » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:44 am

Oberon wrote:I'm disturbed by Jack's suggestion that he veil Wanda. This is a direct contradiction of one of the rules of magic, as explained to the readers in Book 1 Pg 64 When Parson lists all of the reasons they can not veil their troops in the field, "we can't cast on the enemy's turn" is one of them, and it is the only limitation he listed which is still in force, since Jack is in the hex and since Jack is no longer a member of the Eyemancer link. With both Wanda and Sizemore present it would be ridiculous for this not to be corrected were it not the actual case. Especially Sizemore, who had just been teaching Parson about how magic works, should have spoken up to correct him if Parson had made such an elementary misstatement about the rules of magic.

This case can't even be hand waved away by citing the "casting defensively is allowed off-turn", since first a bat and then Ansom's entire stack had entered the central hex of the doughnut. This would have allowed a defensive veil to be cast, except for the fact that casting on the enemy's turn can not be done. Except now it can.


Oberon wrote:
Spot wrote:If one cannot cast on the enemy's turn, then how is it that Vanna ever got the chance to cast her spell to force-end the enemy's turn?

Either Vanna never did cast the force-turn-end spell, and it's therefore still Gobwin Knob's turn, or you are mistaken.
You have overlooked the third option: The rules changed due to author fiat. I am not mistaken, go read 64, it is quite clear what the rules were, before they needed to change in order to accommodate other plot elements.


Seriously, this "casting on someone elses turn" thing has come up so many times its silly. The rules haven't changed - you can't cast on someone elses turn unless your hex is attacked. If Ansom etc. had entered the hex, and Jack had been in it, he would have been able to cast a veil. But it would have been completely pointless as Ansom would have already seen that they were there. A veil is only useful if they don't see you cast it - (like Jack needing the Archons to flash the bridge hex to cover the displacement)

The rule's been like this the whole way through - it's why Wanda could Trioxin the tunnel attackers and blast Jillians fliers with the Tower defences off-turn, why Sizemore could collapse GK off-turn, why the Dittomancer could double the arrows off-turn, why Vanna could cast the kingworld spell off-turn, etc. etc. etc.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby djones520 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:45 am

I don't think Jack is planning on dying in this. It's obvious he holds the decrypted in disdain, and I doubt he wants that for himself. And what would he care if she "caught him as they fell" if he's croaked? I'm thinking his plan is to have the dwagons/mounts absorb all the damage. Probably have them form a shield wall, and then one that collapses Wanda decrypts them and starts again. But I'm pretty sure Jack is making sure that 1st Wanda survives, and 2nd he survives.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Roketter » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 am

I think the situations are totally different. Of course you cannot cast in your turn if your not moving, but that doesnt mean your casters don't become active if the particular hex they are in gets attacked. We've seen several situations in wich casters having their hex "Trespassed" can call armagedon on the enemy...

Most notably: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F095.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Oberon » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:54 am

Thydron wrote:Seriously, this "casting on someone elses turn" thing has come up so many times its silly. The rules haven't changed - you can't cast on someone elses turn unless your hex is attacked. If Ansom etc. had entered the hex, and Jack had been in it, he would have been able to cast a veil. But it would have been completely pointless as Ansom would have already seen that they were there. A veil is only useful if they don't see you cast it - (like Jack needing the Archons to flash the bridge hex to cover the displacement)
How about "nope"? The veiled attack on Ossomer wasn't "useless" just because the defenders knew there was a veil. It took a whole hex full of archers and a Dittomancer to disrupt it. And the veil on Stanley and Jack and their dwagon certainly wasn't useless just because the defenders figured out that one had been cast, and were watching Jack right as it was cast. Instead, it got Stanley and Jack out of the hex and to safety.

Care to try again? Because it is quite clear that a veil is not at all useless even if you are seen casting it. Or Jack wouldn't even suggest that he veil Wanda, in full view of Spacerock's forces, even. It's a ridiculous assertion.

There are only two explanations which fit all the situations we've seen:
Parson misstated a fundamental rule of casting in the presence of two knowledgeable casters and Stanley and no one corrected him. Not even Stanley who probably also knows this rule and just loved/loves to correct Parson and insult his lack of basic rules mechanics knowledge;
-or-
The rules changed.

You can believe the former. I believe that the latter is the more rational option.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby SteveMB » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:59 am

Oberon wrote:There are only two explanations which fit all the situations we've seen:
Parson misstated a fundamental rule of casting in the presence of two knowledgeable casters and Stanley and no one corrected him. Not even Stanley who probably also knows this rule and just loved/loves to correct Parson and insult his lack of basic rules mechanics knowledge;
-or-
The rules changed.

You can believe the former. I believe that the latter is the more rational option.


Actually, the third option (you can't cast out of turn in the current specific situation, as stated in abbreviated fashion by Parson) is the one that makes the most sense.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Squishalot » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:09 pm

Thydron wrote:
Oberon wrote:I'm disturbed by Jack's suggestion that he veil Wanda. This is a direct contradiction of one of the rules of magic, as explained to the readers in Book 1 Pg 64 When Parson lists all of the reasons they can not veil their troops in the field, "we can't cast on the enemy's turn" is one of them, and it is the only limitation he listed which is still in force, since Jack is in the hex and since Jack is no longer a member of the Eyemancer link. With both Wanda and Sizemore present it would be ridiculous for this not to be corrected were it not the actual case. Especially Sizemore, who had just been teaching Parson about how magic works, should have spoken up to correct him if Parson had made such an elementary misstatement about the rules of magic.

This case can't even be hand waved away by citing the "casting defensively is allowed off-turn", since first a bat and then Ansom's entire stack had entered the central hex of the doughnut. This would have allowed a defensive veil to be cast, except for the fact that casting on the enemy's turn can not be done. Except now it can.


Oberon wrote:
Spot wrote:If one cannot cast on the enemy's turn, then how is it that Vanna ever got the chance to cast her spell to force-end the enemy's turn?

Either Vanna never did cast the force-turn-end spell, and it's therefore still Gobwin Knob's turn, or you are mistaken.
You have overlooked the third option: The rules changed due to author fiat. I am not mistaken, go read 64, it is quite clear what the rules were, before they needed to change in order to accommodate other plot elements.


Seriously, this "casting on someone elses turn" thing has come up so many times its silly. The rules haven't changed - you can't cast on someone elses turn unless your hex is attacked. If Ansom etc. had entered the hex, and Jack had been in it, he would have been able to cast a veil. But it would have been completely pointless as Ansom would have already seen that they were there. A veil is only useful if they don't see you cast it - (like Jack needing the Archons to flash the bridge hex to cover the displacement)

The rule's been like this the whole way through - it's why Wanda could Trioxin the tunnel attackers and blast Jillians fliers with the Tower defences off-turn, why Sizemore could collapse GK off-turn, why the Dittomancer could double the arrows off-turn, why Vanna could cast the kingworld spell off-turn, etc. etc. etc.


Actually, Wanda Trioxin'd the tunnel attackers on their next turn. See: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F116.jpg - you can see that she raised them as Stanley was returning from the fight with Transylvito and Jillian.

But semantics aside, all the rest was defensive, yes. If we read page 64, we'll see that the primary reason is that Jack isn't in the stack, and the secondary is that the Eyemancers are linked up, and thirdly, that it's not their turn (and unsaid, that Jack isn't being engaged, which would be irrelevant if it was their turn).

To me, I don't see any breaches. The only possible breach is the DDR battle led by the Archons, who should have been off-turn, and shouldn't have been able to influence things on the ground. In theory, there's also another technical breach by Wanda there - she moved from the tower to the walls to engage Ansom, and must have been in the airspace to be intercepted and shot down by the Archons. Finally, she landed in the courtyard when she was shot down. That at least goes to answer the question about whether dead dragons will lie flat on the city border, or whether they'll fall through (reinforced by Jack's concern that Wanda won't catch them fast enough).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Dark Arbiter » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:13 pm

I'm going to pull this away from debating specific casting- or not-casting-situations.

I just want to say that this update has my stomach in a bit of a knot. Mainly because Jack is my favorite character in the current battlespace, and seeing him Decrypted, croaked, or otherwise have his mind lose some sort of functionality is a very depressing thought. The only thing more depressing than that is the fact that, as much as it pains me, the strategy that he suggested is the one with the best chance of getting both he and Wanda out (Decrypted or not).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Atomic » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:21 pm

This has got to be my favorite text update in a long time... It's a great glimpse into Jack's mind, as well as a few hints at what Parson has been up to since tBfGK; tunneling Dwagons and land-based ships, both of which are in the same mindset as the "Archery" from Summer Update #6.

I'm really interested in seeing how these ideas pan out... Ships (moving over land) have the possibility to be the largest movement breaker yet; although lacking the speed of the Dwagon Express, it'd give Gobwin Knob the ability to transport mass-quantities of troops over large distances. Can ships be Decrypted, or are they closer to "buildings" than units? Is their popping restricted to sea-side cities, or has no one ever thought of trying it from a land-locked city? Can Dwagons actually tunnel, and if so, would they get some type of bonus from Sizemore? Ooooh, questions questions questions...

More so than those, this brings one of the larger debates to mind... Who are Decrypted Dwagons loyal to, Wanda or Stanley?

@Oberon: The majority of people believe the former, based on the information we've been presented through the comic updates... But, judging by your posts, I doubt anything we say will shift your opinion, so it's hardly worth trying! :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:29 pm

W00t! Jack gets some more screen-time, and he sure deserves it. Moar Jack!

I am, to be fair, a bit disappointed at the obvious lack of flying poop, but whatever, can't have it all.

(And yes, I think everyone, yours truly included (sans decryption though), suggested using the Dwagons as meat-shields, it's plain common sense).

I AM a bit curious as to what ehm, *cough*, you know who, suggested. I'd think that anything involving decrypting Dwagons would be to Wanda's liking, so if the Decrywarlords want to sound pleasing to Wanda, I'd think that would be high on the list. Since it wasn't, what could possibly have been more Wanda-centric?
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Thydron » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:29 pm

Oberon wrote:
Thydron wrote:Seriously, this "casting on someone elses turn" thing has come up so many times its silly. The rules haven't changed - you can't cast on someone elses turn unless your hex is attacked. If Ansom etc. had entered the hex, and Jack had been in it, he would have been able to cast a veil. But it would have been completely pointless as Ansom would have already seen that they were there. A veil is only useful if they don't see you cast it - (like Jack needing the Archons to flash the bridge hex to cover the displacement)


How about "nope"? The veiled attack on Ossomer wasn't "useless" just because the defenders knew there was a veil. It took a whole hex full of archers and a Dittomancer to disrupt it. And the veil on Stanley and Jack and their dwagon certainly wasn't useless just because the defenders figured out that one had been cast, and were watching Jack right as it was cast. Instead, it got Stanley and Jack out of the hex and to safety.

Care to try again? Because it is quite clear that a veil is not at all useless even if you are seen casting it. Or Jack wouldn't even suggest that he veil Wanda, in full view of Spacerock's forces, even. It's a ridiculous assertion.


at the bridge it wasn't a veil, it was a displacement ie - they were trying to distract the archers, not hide the fact they were in the hex.
I'm not saying jack couldn't have done anything to help, but he wouldn't have been able to convince ansom there weren't any dwagons in the forest hex, which is what parson wanted to do.

and the veil on stanley only worked because it was their turn & could get out of the hex (just) before they were busted. If it had been Transyvito's turn, they wouldn't have had anywhere to go, and TV would have just spent as long as they needed searching for them before ending turn. Which is what Ansom would have done in the forest.

e: and again - jack isn't trying to hide the fact that wanda is in Jetstones airspace, just make them spend their resources hitting the wrong targets until they run out.


There are only two explanations which fit all the situations we've seen:
Parson misstated a fundamental rule of casting in the presence of two knowledgeable casters and Stanley and no one corrected him. Not even Stanley who probably also knows this rule and just loved/loves to correct Parson and insult his lack of basic rules mechanics knowledge;
-or-
The rules changed.


and those arent the two options - he was saying that jack couldnt cast a veil because he was linked up & not in the hex. if those things were changed i.e he wasnt linked, and he was in the hex, he STILL wouldn't have been able to cast the veil when they were discussing it, because it wasn't their turn. And they all knew that casting a veil once ansom was in the hex wouldn't have helped the situation, for the reasons above.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby random_guy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:24 pm

Oberon wrote:
splintermute wrote:GK can't kill the attackers at a faster rate, or at any rate (unless the corpses manage to fall to the ground) - the whole point of their situation is that they're sitting ducks without any ability to retaliate [...]
Um, no. We've never seen off-turn units just have to absorb attacks without being able to fight back. Quite the contrary, we just saw Ansom's pikers stab Sammy to death while it was Sammy's turn. If attacked Wanda's units can fight back. What they can't do off-turn is initiate the combat. I think. This is a little fuzzy as well, since the uncroaked warlords on the wounded dwagons were ordered not to initiate combat against Jilian and the Archons, off-turn. Why order them not to attack if they can not? But regardless, attacked units have always fought back. Well, except in the case of Jillian against the tower defenses and Wanda. But the Spacerock tower defenses are probably not enough to kill Wanda's stack alone, or there would be no need to even mention the archers, casters, and few flying units and warlords present.


Jillian had megalogwiffs and other air units. If they enter Wanda's hex, it makes sense that they can engage in direct combat. Jetstone can attack Wanda's group with archers from outside the hex. Unless Wanda's group can leave their hex when it's not their turn, they cannot kill Jetstone units at all, so there is no kill rate to increase. Note that they are attacking from another hex from Wanda's perspective. When defending, the defenders treat the entire city, including the airspace, as one hex. From Jetstone's persective, Wanda is in the same hex, so they can attack.

Oberon wrote:How about "nope"? The veiled attack on Ossomer wasn't "useless" just because the defenders knew there was a veil. It took a whole hex full of archers and a Dittomancer to disrupt it. And the veil on Stanley and Jack and their dwagon certainly wasn't useless just because the defenders figured out that one had been cast, and were watching Jack right as it was cast. Instead, it got Stanley and Jack out of the hex and to safety.

Care to try again? Because it is quite clear that a veil is not at all useless even if you are seen casting it. Or Jack wouldn't even suggest that he veil Wanda, in full view of Spacerock's forces, even. It's a ridiculous assertion.


In the attack on Ossomer, the flash covered the displacement, so they had enough time to get Osomer and then escape. By the time they hit Jack, the damage had already been done and most of the units with Ossomer have been hit by shockomancy.

Yeah, the veil Jack used on Stanley was very useful. He entered the hex with two dozen dwagons and left with half a dozen. Keep in mind that Stanley was moving on his own turn, so he had the option of leaving the hex, which he did. If a veil had been used on the injured dwagons during Ansom's turn, then it would have been even more useful. Ansom's units would see the veil being cast, but they will also know that units cannot leave the hex when it's not there turn, so they can hunt them down at their leisure. The veil would have accompish the highly useful goal of sacrificing a foolamancer with the dwagons.

Atomic wrote:More so than those, this brings one of the larger debates to mind... Who are Decrypted Dwagons loyal to, Wanda or Stanley?


Don't we already have the answer? I think the answer is the same as "who are the archons more loyal to? Wanda or Charlie?"

I believe that one resource that hasn't been considered by Wanda's group is Wanda's spellcasting abilities. She tod Sizemore that she can competently cast spells in other disciplines, but she is only interested in Croakamancy. Given the Arkenpliers have no limit to the amount of units it can decrypt, it seems likely that Wanda does not have to use her own juice. Does this mean she can cast something that will improve their chances of survival? She might not like casting spells from other disciplines, but it seems like whe would like getting croaked even less.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby splintermute » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:26 pm

Oberon wrote:Um, no. We've never seen off-turn units just have to absorb attacks without being able to fight back. Quite the contrary, we just saw Ansom's pikers stab Sammy to death while it was Sammy's turn. If attacked Wanda's units can fight back. What they can't do off-turn is initiate the combat. I think. This is a little fuzzy as well, since the uncroaked warlords on the wounded dwagons were ordered not to initiate combat against Jilian and the Archons, off-turn. Why order them not to attack if they can not? But regardless, attacked units have always fought back. Well, except in the case of Jillian against the tower defenses and Wanda. But the Spacerock tower defenses are probably not enough to kill Wanda's stack alone, or there would be no need to even mention the archers, casters, and few flying units and warlords present.

The few flying units are insignificant here, and if they attacked GK, I'm sure Wanda could easily fight back, since they'd both be in the airspace. The big threat is the archers/casters - they're analogous to the tower defenses, they can hit GK, but since they're not in the airspace (only their arrows are), GK can't hit back. Ansom's pikers killing Sammy is nothing like this situation - they were all in the same hex, in the same zone (since non-city hexes only have once common zone), and so of course they could attack each other, the same way Wanda could attack any unipegataurs Jetstone chooses to send up here. What makes this situation so asymmetric is that GK is trapped in the airspace zone - they can attack or counterattack anything that enters the airspace zone, or move things from one part of the airspace to another, but they can't attack anything on the ground (see Book 1, p. 122).


On an unrelated note, Jack seems to believe that corpses will fall to the ground, but decryption isn't possible across the zone boundary, which is why he's asking Wanda to catch them as they fall - if they didn't fall to the ground, Wanda wouldn't need to catch them quickly; and if decryption was possible from the airspace zone to the courtyard/tower/wall zone, Jack would probably have recommended letting the corpses drop so the new decrypted could attack Jetstone's ground troops.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Oberon » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:27 pm

SteveMB wrote:Actually, the third option (you can't cast out of turn in the current specific situation, as stated in abbreviated fashion by Parson) is the one that makes the most sense.
That does not cover the case where the veil is cast after the bat is sent in. Or that the veil is cast after Ansom and his stack is sent in. There were no units there at the time, but this is the exact situation Parson was discussing with his casters: Why would Ansom think we might have veiled forces in the hex?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Oberon » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:31 pm

random_guy wrote:Yeah, the veil Jack used on Stanley was very useful. He entered the hex with two dozen dwagons and left with half a dozen. Keep in mind that Stanley was moving on his own turn, so he had the option of leaving the hex, which he did. If a veil had been used on the injured dwagons during Ansom's turn, then it would have been even more useful. Ansom's units would see the veil being cast, but they will also know that units cannot leave the hex when it's not there turn, so they can hunt them down at their leisure. The veil would have accompish the highly useful goal of sacrificing a foolamancer with the dwagons.
Don't be so sure on that point. It took 11 (minus losses) Warlords to spot the veil Jack cast to get Stanley away. It is very speculative and without clear example to assume that "It's my turn" automatically equals "I will eventually break any veil I look for, before my turn ends." Note that even after the blow pop attack on Trammenis, Ossomer didn't break the veil. They were right in front of him! Yes, it wasn't Ossomer's turn, but still that seems to indicate that knowing of a veiled force doesn't mean breaking the veil.
Last edited by Oberon on Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby kaylasdad99 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:32 pm

Regarding the whole "a side can't cast during the enemy's turn" thing, I suppose I should ask some questions regarding turn-based RPGs (my own experience is related only to dungeon-crawling adventurere parties, and is about 28 years out-of-date anyway, so please bear with my ignorance):

First of all, in the experience of those who have gamed before, has a caster ever been able to initiate casting when it wasn't his turn? If not, how does this rule differ from the rules everyone's used in D&D in the past?

Secondly, even with this rule in place, has the rule ever been invoked to prevent a caster from casting defensively during melee? The do use melee in Erfworld, do they not?

I'll concede that in D&D, a caster can only cast what has been prepared during the caster's turn. But I'll also note that the D&D rules template doesn't overlay perfectly with that of the Erf-iverse, and that in Erfworld, a caster's abilities (as opposed to scroll-based spells) are a matter of juice, not turn-based spell preparation.

Please argue me out of my current position that the authors are not breaking their own rule. I'm certain that I'll find it quite educational, even if my view doesn't change.

P.S. wrt the necessity that Wanda Decrypt croaked units while they are still in Jetstone's airspace, I wonder what would happen if Wanda were to turn the Arkenpliers on a still-living unit? N.B. I have no expectation that she can give the living units the ability to transition directly to Decrypted mode without further action from her, but it's an experiment I've always hoped she would run, just so we could know. But, just as Jack has been picking up Parson's tactical-thinking habits, so has Wanda. He'd never suggest that she try it, but she MIGHT think of it herself.
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