Book 2 – Text Updates 021

[Oberon]

Regarding the whole "a side can't cast during the enemy's turn" thing, I suppose I should ask some questions regarding turn-based RPGs [...]

Erfworld mechanics are close to those of most TBS games, and not at all like those of D&D. But they are their own rules, and not, as far as anyone has pointed out, exactly similar to any prior published rules. So knowing in general how TBS games work helps to understand Erf mechanics, but it is no guarantee that every assumption will be correct, even if (or maybe especially if) based upon another game.

After the rules about casting were described to the readers by the characters, mostly Parson while he learned them, many people pointed out the reversal of the "no casting off-turn" rule. The author stepped in and explained the exceptions to this rules, but the rule plus the exceptions still do not cover all cases of off-turn casting. So either the rules were not explained well from the beginning, or a poor job was done of explaining the exceptions, or the rules have changed to meet the needs of the plot. Those are the three possibilities. Given that even Word of God fails to account for all of the cases where we have seen off-turn casting, it appears to me that the rules were changed, even if subtly or for some other cases.

Secondly, even with this rule in place, has the rule ever been invoked to prevent a caster from casting defensively during melee? The do use melee in Erfworld, do they not?

They do. But from a cartoon it would be difficult in some cases to determine exactly when a unit is "in melee." Sizemore cast while face to face with Webinar. Sizemore also cast while running his raid on the RCC forces to disrupt their leadership and shock them. The RCC rank and file were ordered to engage the caster, but we can't know if this was accomplished. And no restriction on casting in melee has been mentioned in any case.

[Thydron]

After the rules about casting were described to the readers by the characters, mostly Parson while he learned them, many people pointed out the reversal of the "no casting off-turn" rule. The author stepped in and explained the exceptions to this rules, but the rule plus the exceptions still do not cover all cases of off-turn casting. So either the rules were not explained well from the beginning, or a poor job was done of explaining the exceptions, or the rules have changed to meet the needs of the plot. Those are the three possibilities. Given that even Word of God fails to account for all of the cases where we have seen off-turn casting, it appears to me that the rules were changed, even if subtly or for some other cases.

Where are these exceptions?
The only thing I can think of that was a bit confusing was the Archons in the courtyard, but that was explained by Rob as being due to them having allied, and sharing the Alliance's turn. (Though their move was still at 0).
You seem to be clutching at straws that don't exist.

[raphfrk]

Nah, if I interpret this correctly then no movement within the hex would make any difference for Jetstone being able to nail them with archery.

The do seem to indicate that range matters:

"The tower could strike any unit in the city's airspace. Within the airspace, they could only choose to deploy their stacks over the outer walls or the garrison."

The tower can hit any unit in airspace, but they get to decide which of the units on the outer walls or garrison get to shoot at them.

Maybe by gaining altitude they can restrict it so that only enemies on the tower can hit them.

I'm really interested in seeing how these ideas pan out... Ships (moving over land) have the possibility to be the largest movement breaker yet;

This could also refer to a unit like a ship moving over land, rather than an actual ship.

For example, a train is like a ship, but it moves over land. Another option is using lots of wagons.

More so than those, this brings one of the larger debates to mind... Who are Decrypted Dwagons loyal to, Wanda or Stanley?

Wanda, if the Archons are anything to go by.

[splintermute]

After the rules about casting were described to the readers by the characters, mostly Parson while he learned them, many people pointed out the reversal of the "no casting off-turn" rule. The author stepped in and explained the exceptions to this rules, but the rule plus the exceptions still do not cover all cases of off-turn casting. So either the rules were not explained well from the beginning, or a poor job was done of explaining the exceptions, or the rules have changed to meet the needs of the plot. Those are the three possibilities. Given that even Word of God fails to account for all of the cases where we have seen off-turn casting, it appears to me that the rules were changed, even if subtly or for some other cases.

I think the casting rules have been clearly established - you can cast if:

a) it's your turn; or
b) you (the caster) are in an "active hex"

An active hex is a hex that contains enemy unit(s) - i.e. a non-allied unit from a different side. For the purposes of "active hex" determination, a city hex is considered a single hex, even if the enemies are in a different city zone. The only exception is communication magic - thinkagrams, hat messages, etc. - it seems like those can be cast wherever, whenever.

Have there been any instances of spellcasting that didn't conform to these rules?

[badninja]

Oh what is this twisted mind of Jack's thinking? I got a shiver down my spine because if he has learned anything from Parson it is to do something to due with the unexpected. I have a feeling that he as a plan beyond just getting himself decrypted and I feel that he is more then right about the proper actions that need to be taken. Ossmer or what ever brings up a good point his father is blinded by his believed superiority and much like Ansom I feel he is going to fall for one nasty dirty tactic, so who is going to be the new Bogrol? On to the next comic!

[Ilari]

I don't think this "off-turn casting" thing is nearly as complicated as some of you are making it out to be.

When units from two opposing Sides are in the same Hex, the defenders act as if it were still their previous turn. They can attack, cast spells if they have any Juice left, choose not to engage the enemy if a Warlord or Caster is present, or do anything else they could normally do if it were their turn. They just can't leave the Hex, because ending turn sets all units' Move to zero and it doesn't regenerate until the next turn starts. If the defenders survive and wipe out the enemy, they go back to their normal off-turn state. (Can't attack or cast spells)

[multilis]

If Jack is decrypted and still a caster he may be fully healed with full juice after.

Jack getting hit breaks Wanda's veil, so quite possible Jack keep himself *and* Wanda safe, and may not croak, easiest way may be a distraction rather than veil which Jack is a genius at. Possible he can fool the enemy to think they are seeing something different when Wanda is busy decroaking, something very strange. Sounds like ranged units have limited shots per turn.

Some games had bugs allowing ships on land, eg a magic spell may give forestry and mountaineering skills (ability to move on each as well as normal terrain) applied to a boat may with bug allow boat to move on forest and mountain in addition to water.

[ftl]

Wait. Why the boop are people thinking that Parson actually had in mind making units like tunneling dwagons or land-ships?

He's gaming scenarios - honing skills by making up units and seeing how they play out. That isn't an indication that he expects those units to actually exist or intends to make them.

It's how you prepare for the unexpected - spend a lot of time practising while throwing in impossible units and situations you never expect to see. You'll probably never see those exact scenarios and units - but that's not the point, by then you'll be better at dealing with unexpected things in general.

[MarbitChow]

Boats on land: Zeppelins / Wheeled Transports.
Infantry that can cast: Trimancers making magic items that grant casting abilities.

Parson is gaming scenarios to see what the effect is, in order to determine whether the effort required in creating some of the effects is worth the combat bonus.

----

Casting out of turn: Which is more likely - that after two years, both the author and dozens of posters on the forums missed this fundamental flaw in casting description, or that a single poster is misinterpreting the events?

Jack couldn't veil units out-of-turn for the simple reason that they were in a different hex, and most spells can only be cast on the units in the same hex. Out of turn, he just couldn't reach them. Think-a-grams can be cast at any time. Look-a-mancy can be used at any time.

Saying that magic cannot be used out of turn isn't a limitation on magic - it's a simple limitation that you can't use most magic on units that are out of your hex, and you can't enter their hex out-of-turn.

[DoctorJest]

Seriously, this "casting on someone elses turn" thing has come up so many times its silly. The rules haven't changed - you can't cast on someone elses turn unless your hex is attacked. If Ansom etc. had entered the hex, and Jack had been in it, he would have been able to cast a veil. But it would have been completely pointless as Ansom would have already seen that they were there. A veil is only useful if they don't see you cast it - (like Jack needing the Archons to flash the bridge hex to cover the displacement)

The rule's been like this the whole way through - it's why Wanda could Trioxin the tunnel attackers and blast Jillians fliers with the Tower defences off-turn, why Sizemore could collapse GK off-turn, why the Dittomancer could double the arrows off-turn, why Vanna could cast the kingworld spell off-turn, etc. etc. etc.

Yep, this. The rules have not changed.

[DoctorJest]

Wait. Why the boop are people thinking that Parson actually had in mind making units like tunneling dwagons or land-ships?

He's gaming scenarios - honing skills by making up units and seeing how they play out. That isn't an indication that he expects those units to actually exist or intends to make them.

It's how you prepare for the unexpected - spend a lot of time practising while throwing in impossible units and situations you never expect to see. You'll probably never see those exact scenarios and units - but that's not the point, by then you'll be better at dealing with unexpected things in general.

Precisely. He's learning the "game system" by messing around with it, to see how various things change the game one way or another. The idea he's going to try to make tunneling dwagons or land-going ships is not supported by his experimenting with the game system to understand it inside out.

[Calemyr]

First, I just gotta comment on the little literary trick they played in this:

Could she look as long into the abyss of his own?

"No," said the Croakamancer, glancing away.

She's answering both the spoken and unspoken question. It may not be that big of a deal, really, but I thought it was elegantly done and worth mentioning.

The casting off-turn issue needs to have one factor added to it to make sense: the time dilation between hexes. The summer text updates went into rather explicit detail about how time doesn't flow the same in each hex. One could draw from their discussion that while it's possible to scry on an active hex from a distance and even communicate with it, remote casting an active spell such as a veil into such a temporally different environment would be akin to playing darts through a tornado. It would be realistically impossible (though technically just extremely difficult and prohibitively expensive, juice-wise) to pull off.

As for Jack's strategy, he's following Parson's pattern of thought here. Ossomer and Sylvia are trying to win, both approval and the encounter, while Jack is trying to focus on priorities. This would be to limit losses by first preserving the highest value unit on the field at any cost, and then preserving lesser high-value units as a secondary objective. Dwagons, while valuable, are a replenishable resource and can be sacrificed first along with living or decrypted standard units. Archons are next, being powerful and limited in availability but with ultimately lower overall value than Jack and the warlords, who are second only to Wanda. At this point anything they manage to salvage from this encounter is a win for GK and an embarrassment for Jetstone, as a rout is a mathematical certainty.

Like most everyone else, I hope Jack doesn't die here. He is too interesting a character with too dynamic a loyalty to make him a decrypted.

[the_tick_rules]

Good thought Jack.

[DoctorJest]

Nah, if I interpret this correctly then no movement within the hex would make any difference for Jetstone being able to nail them with archery.

The do seem to indicate that range matters:

"The tower could strike any unit in the city's airspace. Within the airspace, they could only choose to deploy their stacks over the outer walls or the garrison."

The tower can hit any unit in airspace, but they get to decide which of the units on the outer walls or garrison get to shoot at them.

Maybe by gaining altitude they can restrict it so that only enemies on the tower can hit them.

I don't think so. Jack was pretty clear they only had a choice of which Archers could hit them, not if any archers could hit them.

[Oberon]

Where are these exceptions?
The only thing I can think of that was a bit confusing was the Archons in the courtyard, but that was explained by Rob as being due to them having allied, and sharing the Alliance's turn. (Though their move was still at 0).
You seem to be clutching at straws that don't exist.

I wish I could provide them for you, but I believe that they reside on the GitP forums, and looking for them might be a rather long effort. If you're really interested you could search there for posts from Rob's screen name, or perhaps they exist on the wiki or someone else can point to them. Sorry.

[DoctorJest]

Where are these exceptions?
The only thing I can think of that was a bit confusing was the Archons in the courtyard, but that was explained by Rob as being due to them having allied, and sharing the Alliance's turn. (Though their move was still at 0).
You seem to be clutching at straws that don't exist.

I wish I could provide them for you, but I believe that they reside on the GitP forums, and looking for them might be a rather long effort. If you're really interested you could search there for posts from Rob's screen name, or perhaps they exist on the wiki or someone else can point to them. Sorry.

Nice how you shifted the burden of proof of your own claims onto everyone else. It doesn't work that way. Either you can back up your claim or you can't. It's not everyone else's responsibility to go searching to find some post that may or may not even exist. If you have proof the rules changed, present them. If you don't, then you're just another tinfoil hat wearer (which puts you in good company here, so it's not a bad thing).

[Oberon]

More so than those, this brings one of the larger debates to mind... Who are Decrypted Dwagons loyal to, Wanda or Stanley?

Wanda, if the Archons are anything to go by.

I would tend to agree, but I'd point out that the Decrypted Archons were units belonging to an opposing Side, while Decrypting dead Dwagons during a Jetstone assault would be Decrypting units belonging to the same Side. This could be a subtle difference. Stanley seems to know that the enemy fallen and Decrypted are loyal to Wanda. But although it must have happened during the retaking of the previously held cities and any new conquests, we have not yet seen an example of a former living GK unit which has been decrypted. Unless I've missed something?

[Oberon]

Nice how you shifted the burden of proof of your own claims onto everyone else.

Jesus Christ on a crutch! Either I dig through literally years of old posts or I'm a liar? Are those my only options here? Can't you accept that I'm telling at least what I believe to be the truth without demanding that I do hours of research to back up my memory? Isn't anyone at least deserving of the common courtesy of assuming that they are not conspiring to deceive without being subjected to personal attacks? I would certainly hope so.

[kaylasdad99]

Erfworld mechanics are close to those of most TBS games, and not at all like those of D&D. But they are their own rules, and not, as far as anyone has pointed out, exactly similar to any prior published rules. So knowing in general how TBS games work helps to understand Erf mechanics, but it is no guarantee that every assumption will be correct, even if (or maybe especially if) based upon another game.

After the rules about casting were described to the readers by the characters, mostly Parson while he learned them, many people pointed out the reversal of the "no casting off-turn" rule. The author stepped in and explained the exceptions to this rules, but the rule plus the exceptions still do not cover all cases of off-turn casting. So either the rules were not explained well from the beginning, or a poor job was done of explaining the exceptions, or the rules have changed to meet the needs of the plot. Those are the three possibilities. Given that even Word of God fails to account for all of the cases where we have seen off-turn casting, it appears to me that the rules were changed, even if subtly or for some other cases.

Secondly, even with this rule in place, has the rule ever been invoked to prevent a caster from casting defensively during melee? The do use melee in Erfworld, do they not?

They do. But from a cartoon it would be difficult in some cases to determine exactly when a unit is "in melee." Sizemore cast while face to face with Webinar. Sizemore also cast while running his raid on the RCC forces to disrupt their leadership and shock them. The RCC rank and file were ordered to engage the caster, but we can't know if this was accomplished. And no restriction on casting in melee has been mentioned in any case.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Oberon; I appreciate the opportunity to learn.

As for the question of when a unit is in melee, ISTM that when one side engages the other within the active hex would serve as a qualification. I can see how there might be some concern that this might not give Jack a lot of time to veil Wanda, but AIUI, it can be difficult to keep track of who's where (and doing what) in the confusion of battle. For that matter, I'm concerned that this same consideration could complicate Wanda's efforts to know who needs decrypting, and in what order. It could look like a fast-paced game of Tetris out there.

[kaylasdad99]

BTW, not to be a Junior Mod or anything; I'm just trying to learn my way around this community, but is there a sector on this site where we can go to have flame wars?