Book 2 – Page 33

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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby DevilDan » Thu May 27, 2010 10:48 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:
DevilDan wrote:
In fact, I wonder why Parson didn't try some psy ops campaign to continue to drive a wedge between Charlescomm and the royals, to make it seem as if Charlescomm is a Toolist.


He did. Way back in Book 1, while thinkagramming with Ansom, Parson deliberate copied Charlie's eccentric phrase "m'kay", to try to make Ansom suspicious.


Hence "continue to drive."

I think it's safe to assume that GK doesn't have any casters we haven't seen, simply based on the fact that such a caster would have almost certainly had to have been in GK at the end of TBFGK and would almost surely not have survived the RCC attack and the volcano uncroaking. And we didn't see the caster escaping to TMK or in the aftermath of TBFGK. A caster could have popped subsequently, but I don't know that GK has particularly had any need to pop warlords. Whether that was smart or not, only Parson could tell you perhaps.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby raphfrk » Fri May 28, 2010 5:25 am

ftl wrote:They've destroyed one Side so far - and Queen Bea committed suicide before they got to her casters.


Stanley managed to capture Jack and Wanda from Faq, so that is likely unusual.

It seems that launching a sudden strike to capture enemy casters is optimal.

Also, it is critical that the caster is inside the city when the Ruler is actually killed.

It was only because of Bea's "metal" that she sent the casters away. A weaker Ruler might have decided to roll the dice in the hope of a miracle. If she hadn't sent them away, then there would be a high chance of capture. Vanna needed to be in the tower to cast with bonuses and that is probably true for other casters, so there is a tradeoff between ordering them to stand near the MK portal and getting the full benefit from their abilities.

I wonder if Faq had a MK portal at the time. Jillian clearly does, in order to hire Vanna. However, she is not trying to keep her kingdom a secret, as her father was.

Another option would be to demand that a side turn over a caster to you, in exchange for not being wiped out.

A final option would have been to hit Tremmenis' stack and then retreat with the casters. Capturing a healamancer, dollamancer and a dittomancer could easily have been worth more than capturing Spacerock. In any case, capturing one of the casters would have been more valuable than Ossomer, though they did it for intel not for the unit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby gazes_also » Fri May 28, 2010 9:23 am

raphfrk wrote:
gazes_also wrote:They've destroyed one Side so far - and Queen Bea committed suicide before they got to her casters.


Stanley managed to capture Jack and Wanda from Faq, so that is likely unusual.

It seems that launching a sudden strike to capture enemy casters is optimal.
...
I wonder if Faq had a MK portal at the time. Jillian clearly does, in order to hire Vanna. However, she is not trying to keep her kingdom a secret, as her father was.

Another option would be to demand that a side turn over a caster to you, in exchange for not being wiped out.


Wanda was complicit in the overthrow of Faq, so she probably had a deal to turn to GK and took Jack with her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby effataigus » Fri May 28, 2010 12:05 pm

I'm curious about Vanna's relation to Jillian. It was mentioned that Charlie paid for Vanna's contract http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=/E049_NoIllustration.png. It was also mentioned that Jillian was paying for Vanna's upkeep http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=/2009-12-20.png.

What happens to Vanna if Jillian dies? If she goes back to being a freelance barbarian that's one thing... if she were to disband like a regular FAQ unit... then dang, Charlie was definitely risking a lot if it was him linking with her. Imagine if Wanda had followed Ossomer's advice and coup de grace-d Jillian under veil.

Yay for conclusions reached via long "if" bridges.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby raphfrk » Fri May 28, 2010 12:57 pm

effataigus wrote:What happens to Vanna if Jillian dies? If she goes back to being a freelance barbarian that's one thing... if she were to disband like a regular FAQ unit... then dang, Charlie was definitely risking a lot if it was him linking with her. Imagine if Wanda had followed Ossomer's advice and coup de grace-d Jillian under veil.


She is probably a freelance/barbarian. As a caster, she has warlord status and she doesn't have a Ruler.

There is probably a mechanism where a side can loan a unit to another side and then that unit moves with them. This is hinted where it is said that sometimes both sides rent archons from Charlie. For that to work, he would have to be allied with both sides, which seems impossible if they are at war.

Anyway, Vanna being her own Ruler/one unit side could just ally with Faq.

It does raise a risk for MK casters when they are "in the field". They risk being captured and losing their freedom. Ofc, that is better than being croaked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby gazes_also » Fri May 28, 2010 5:08 pm

raphfrk wrote:
gazes_also wrote:They've destroyed one Side so far - and Queen Bea committed suicide before they got to her casters.


Stanley managed to capture Jack and Wanda from Faq, so that is likely unusual.

It seems that launching a sudden strike to capture enemy casters is optimal.

Also, it is critical that the caster is inside the city when the Ruler is actually killed.

It was only because of Bea's "metal" that she sent the casters away. A weaker Ruler might have decided to roll the dice in the hope of a miracle. If she hadn't sent them away, then there would be a high chance of capture. Vanna needed to be in the tower to cast with bonuses and that is probably true for other casters, so there is a tradeoff between ordering them to stand near the MK portal and getting the full benefit from their abilities.

I wonder if Faq had a MK portal at the time. Jillian clearly does, in order to hire Vanna. However, she is not trying to keep her kingdom a secret, as her father was.

Another option would be to demand that a side turn over a caster to you, in exchange for not being wiped out.

A final option would have been to hit Tremmenis' stack and then retreat with the casters. Capturing a healamancer, dollamancer and a dittomancer could easily have been worth more than capturing Spacerock. In any case, capturing one of the casters would have been more valuable than Ossomer, though they did it for intel not for the unit.


your quote was ftl's not mine.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby raphfrk » Fri May 28, 2010 7:47 pm

gazes_also wrote:your quote was ftl's not mine.


Sorry, fixed it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby Oberon » Fri May 28, 2010 9:46 pm

gazes_also wrote:
Zak3056 wrote:
gazes_also wrote:What makes Parson a formidable warlord is not the unthinkable things he is capable of doing to his enemies, it's the unthinkable things he is capable of doing to his friends.
Was that Parson's personality, though, or was it his "Resolve?" Remember that he threw that away at the end of book 1...
It's definitely his personality, and he knows it himself.
He has been a successful gamer, an environment in which it is perfectly ok to be imaginatively ruthless, sacrifice your strongest units to achieve an objective or annihilate an opponent. In Erfworld he is faced with the dilemma of conducting himself in the same way, using the same vicious imagination, but here his actions have consequences for living beings with whom he can interact and form relationships. He can conceive of the plans that will win, he cannot help doing that,it's who he is.
This is it exactly. Many years ago, probably the 60's or 70's, the military conducted a study using tabletop wargamers as potential trainers for their officer cadre. The thought process was that these guys played wargames for fun, and that this gave them a huge pile of experience which might be useful to the Army. Recall Parson saying to Stanley and Wanda "I was just about to game a scenario like this. [...] Plan. A war. For fun"? Same situation. But the Army study was a disaster. The Generals were shocked at how many losses the veteran wargamers were willing to take to win a scenario. No General officer could contemplate throwing away so many lives, it went against their training and moral values. And so the concept was scrapped. This is an exact parallel of Parson in Erfworld: A wargamer willing to do whatever it takes to win, no matter how horrific the losses. Because the losses are just squares of paper on a board, and winning is the only thing which counts.

I personally think that it was the scenario rules which were at fault in the Army study. Had troop losses been calculated into the victory conditions, you'd find gamers adapting rapidly to these rules and fewer troops would be spent if it meant that the wargamer would lose the scenario. I have often said to friends who are also wargamers but sometimes just don't grok a particular game: "you play to the victory conditions", I find that this mindset helps to eliminate preconceived notions and focuses you on the win. The best possible position is irrelevant, your forces can be out of position and able to be slaughtered with ease in the next turn, but if you achieve the victory conditions this turn, you win.
gazes_also wrote:The problem is, what ability does he have to resist doing what he imagines? By not being CWL he sidesteps that problem. As CWL he is responsible to direct GK's forces, but does he have freedom of choice to do something other than what he has imagined as the most certain and devastating way to win regardless of collateral damage?
Yes, he does have this freedom of choice. He has recognized that his decisions can and have caused deaths. Real deaths, of real people. His goal now is different, must be different: He must learn how to win while also minimizing friendly casualties. If he masters the "game" he will also look for ways to win which minimize enemy casualties. In other words, he must act as would a General officer in any modern army: Looking for the win while also not spending his troops lives without very good cause.

raphfrk wrote:Stanley managed to capture Jack and Wanda from Faq, so that is likely unusual.
It has been stated that casters are very valuable units and as such they are one of the few unit types which are turned rather than killed. That said, Wanda invited Stanley to attack FAQ. She thought he'd lose, but for the plan to look real she must have had an "I'll turn to your side" provision in place. There'd be zero reason for her to sell out FAQ if it brought her own death as well. Jack was likely a bonus caster, but we may learn more about the actual machinations surrounding the fall of FAQ later.


raphfrk wrote:It was only because of Bea's "metal" that she sent the casters away. A weaker Ruler might have decided to roll the dice in the hope of a miracle.
ITYM "mettle." Bea was not composed of metal, as far as we know. :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat May 29, 2010 3:26 am

Oberon wrote:Many years ago, probably the 60's or 70's, the military conducted a study using tabletop wargamers as potential trainers for their officer cadre. The thought process was that these guys played wargames for fun, and that this gave them a huge pile of experience which might be useful to the Army. Recall Parson saying to Stanley and Wanda "I was just about to game a scenario like this. [...] Plan. A war. For fun"? Same situation. But the Army study was a disaster. The Generals were shocked at how many losses the veteran wargamers were willing to take to win a scenario. No General officer could contemplate throwing away so many lives, it went against their training and moral values. And so the concept was scrapped. This is an exact parallel of Parson in Erfworld: A wargamer willing to do whatever it takes to win, no matter how horrific the losses. Because the losses are just squares of paper on a board, and winning is the only thing which counts.


That's really interesting, please tell more. The Cold War in general was a time when mathematical modelling in all its many guises (game theory, system theory, control theory etc) truly exploded and claimed dominance in every domain, and because of that (among many other things naturally) it was a very interesting time in history.

To your example of ruthless wargamers, I will now bring the WW2 Battle of the Atlantic. I cite that thing a lot because really- ... well, just see.

What it was all about- Britain was fighting Germany (a fight that looked bad for Britain), and needed supplies. The USA would send these, but British ships needed to take them across the pond. Germany took a grim view to that, and so the submarine warfare began, with Germany trying to sink as many of the supply convoys as possible.

If your ship was sunk, you were as good as dead (and likely literally dead in minutes). But what mattered, for the war effort, was not that everybody made it home. What mattered was that either enough ships and their cargo got back (if you were the British) or that, reversely, you managed to sink enough shipping tonnage or whatever that was called while not losing too many U-Boats (if you were the Germans). Both sides adopted tactics to achieve these goals. But you can never be safe. Make one convoy impervious to the typical U-Boat pack, but then you have no ships to protect others. Attack in great U-Boat packs, but you cover less sea. You can never be safe, you can just tilt odds and actuarial records. Standard warfare planning so far.

Then the now famous cryptoanalysts at Bletchley Park managed to crack the code the German Navy was using. It took a lot of work, which would need to be done again if the Germans found out and changed the code machines (which happened eventually, it was a code race that one. But, this promised to tilt the odds more in Britain's favour. (It wasn't the only thing in their favour, but that's not important right now). You could spy on German transmissions, see where the subs were, and route convoys around them.

Do that too often though, and you arise suspicion. So, you needed to invent clever ways to make use of that information (a scout plane just "happened" to fly where a U-Boat pack was), or ruthless ways: not use it at all, and leave the sailors to their fate. All to prolong the time you have the ability to eavesdrop effectively. Even more, decoding was not that easy when not knowing the code machine settings. To get those, the British would sometimes try to "plant" information (which could be a ship or two at some position), then assume the next coded transmissions included the information they planted; this gave more information to the code breakers.

The point of the rant above- it was all absolutely ruthless on both sides. Once the thing got going, there was no way to be otherwise. Had either of them been softer, it would have been even worse for that side. But you do wonder how naval command managed to sleep after the war.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby JustDoug » Sat May 29, 2010 4:13 am

There is a difference between acceptable losses in achieving victory and squandering lives and national treasure in the pursuit of same.

Bad Generals treat the coin of men and materiel poorly. One may be miserly, hoarding their treasure and unwilling to expend anything at all. They may not incur much cost, but they won't achieve victory that way, either. Another may squander his resources, spending them all-too freely, shoveling them wholesale into the war to no effect and leaving the final goal unreached along with empty pockets. Neither spends their coin wisely.

Good generals will careful expend their coin, seeking best return for every expenditure, weighing each expense against what it might gain in the overall plan. They budget carefully, making sure they don't overspend while insuring that each careful purchase is one that leads towards the goal of final victory. They're willing to pay a fair price to assure that they eventually reach their goal.

Better Generals will do that, but will also look for bargains; keys to achieving the final goal without having to pay for everything along the path. Those might have to be purchased dearly, requiring a large outlay of coin to achieve, but will cost less in the long run than the slow but sure approach of others.

The best generals know that men and materiel aren't coins, and what they're spending is human lives and national treasure. They might take the long, sure road to victory or look for the quick, short one, but you can bet they're mindful of what they're purchasing it with.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby asparagus » Sat May 29, 2010 4:57 pm

Is there any point speculating what Parson's ugly idea might be? It's obviously going to involve Foolamancy since he wants to talk to Jack. I could make a list of the ideas but I find myself shooting them down as I write them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby splintermute » Sat May 29, 2010 6:56 pm

Oberon wrote:
raphfrk wrote:It was only because of Bea's "metal" that she sent the casters away. A weaker Ruler might have decided to roll the dice in the hope of a miracle.
ITYM "mettle." Bea was not composed of metal, as far as we know. :lol:

Yes, although destroying your entire side so they can't be used against your allies is totally metal
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby Oberon » Mon May 31, 2010 11:59 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:That's really interesting, please tell more.
I'm not sure I can. I heard this tale more than 20 years ago, and although I believed it at the time it may have been apocryphal. And I don't have any more information than that I've shared. JustDoug has the general gist: There have always been incompetent General officers who spent the lives of their men foolishly. There have also also always been General officers who spent the lives of their men in the calculated obtainment of a greater victory. But there have been few successful General officers who spent the lives of their men excessively for a paltry victory. The calculations of lives against advantage you detailed do not make the officers who made those decisions monsters. I am certain that on a moral level they agonized over those judgment calls. Or at least the officers with a soul did. They did what they though was best for their side at the time, and it was not with a thoughtless disregard for the lives of their men but with a clear understanding that lives spent today would mean less lives spent tomorrow.

This is not at all consistent with wargames, where achieving victory is everything, and the final position and troop strength is meaningless. Wargames come to a distinct close with the satisfying of distinct victory conditions, and not many consider the potential for future action. Thus "lives" (chits, markers, stands) may be spent freely, without any thought to future combat readiness. Not so in actual warfare, for any side which wishes to win.
How using capslock wins arguments:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby Squishalot » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:30 am

Oberon wrote:This is not at all consistent with wargames, where achieving victory is everything, and the final position and troop strength is meaningless. Wargames come to a distinct close with the satisfying of distinct victory conditions, and not many consider the potential for future action. Thus "lives" (chits, markers, stands) may be spent freely, without any thought to future combat readiness. Not so in actual warfare, for any side which wishes to win.


That's not entirely true, and any wargame which does not assess your performance based on your final position or the degree in which you wasted resources has a poor grading system. The most recent TBS game I've played is Advance Wars, which does give you a 'Technique' rank based on the quantity of troops that you've lost in the process of winning.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby gazes_also » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:52 pm

@bland
You're absolutely right about the secret war over Enigma in WW2. The British cracking of enigma was key to one of the biggest pieces of deception ever pulled off in wartime - Operation Mincemeat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat
British Naval Intelligence used their knowledge of German agents in neutral Spain to plant a body that washed up on the Spanish coast with fake papers indicating that the Allies would invade southern Europe through Greece. They tracked coded communication that showed that the Germans had secretly stolen, copied and replaced the documents and were completely taken in by them.
The Germans diverted forces to Greece, the Allies invaded Sicily in July 1943.
The price of using the intel from Enigma effectively was the lives lost because they could not act on everything they knew without arousing suspicion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby Aquillion » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:44 pm

I find it interesting that Maggie (who doesn't seem to be a particularly good strategist) is certain that her ruler is wrong, certain enough to risk her life by going against his orders, despite what would seem to be both his and Parson's opinions to the contrary.

I wonder why? Is it because, as a Thinkamancer, she has enough insight into Parson's mind to realize when he's trying to avoid responsibility?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:01 am

Rajin96 wrote:It'll be interesting to see what Parson comes up with and if it in any way resembles Jack's plan.


Jack did not have a plan. Perhaps Jack is a tactical idiot but I prefer to think he was not attempting to state a plan. What Jack said was that without a plan they still have a chance of survival. Compare it to "there are 35 of us and the terrorist taking us hostage has an AK47 with 30 bullets in it." That is not a statement of a plan.

Jack basically said that live dwagons can adsorb a lot of arrows twice and Jetstone has a less than infinite supply of arrows.

Aquillion wrote:I find it interesting that Maggie (who doesn't seem to be a particularly good strategist) is certain that her ruler is wrong, certain enough to risk her life by going against his orders, despite what would seem to be both his and Parson's opinions to the contrary.

I wonder why? Is it because, as a Thinkamancer, she has enough insight into Parson's mind to realize when he's trying to avoid responsibility?


She may know that Parson is afraid of being responsible for killing. By making him chief warlord he becomes responsible for the soldiers he commands and therefore has to think of a way out. Before Parson was distracting himself with calculations of accurate statistics. No that he is in command he also has to ask the right questions.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:21 am

Oberon wrote:Many years ago, probably the 60's or 70's, the military conducted a study using tabletop wargamers as potential trainers for their officer cadre. The thought process was that these guys played wargames for fun, and that this gave them a huge pile of experience which might be useful to the Army. Recall Parson saying to Stanley and Wanda "I was just about to game a scenario like this. [...] Plan. A war. For fun"? Same situation. But the Army study was a disaster. The Generals were shocked at how many losses the veteran wargamers were willing to take to win a scenario. No General officer could contemplate throwing away so many lives, it went against their training and moral values. And so the concept was scrapped. This is an exact parallel of Parson in Erfworld: A wargamer willing to do whatever it takes to win, no matter how horrific the losses. Because the losses are just squares of paper on a board, and winning is the only thing which counts.


It was not a failure and wargames are used. Maybe not wargamers, officers play the games. The pentagon tries to avoid telling us everything about what goes on in the basement. We have more details on the effectiveness of flight simulators, paintball and laser tag. On an episode of wings an airforce trainer claimed that in the 80's there was an emphasis on getting pilots to use the advanced electronic gadgets in the cockpit. By the late 90's the new recruits entering the airforce pilot programs were already at home with using the electronics because of Atari and Comodors. The trainers had to teach the recruits to get their head up and look around. The F22 cockpit was designed to make the F22 simulators match the real thing. They made the entire inside surface a liquid crystal display so that any future additions can be added to both control sets with a simple change in software. Soon the airforce will be getting 19 year olds with 15 years of free combat training.

I had read that the army switched from laser to paintball because the sting of a ball makes the experience more like really getting shot. A friend in the national guard recently told me about an incident involving laser equipment so I believe both are still used. The Army has massive real sized battlefields where troops get to experience fake slaughter. Desert training is in Arizona, arctic training in Alaska. Fort Benning Georgia is huge and has one of the largest fleets of old soviet helicopters and attack aircraft operating outside of Russia. Playing war is serious business. The war simulations have many aspects that are extremely unrealistic but also make them more effective. The red team is played by sergeants who are experts on probable opponent tactics. They have years of experience kicking American ass on the exact same field. The red team knows everything that blue team has been taught in basic and most of red team are combat veterans. Blue team is in a new climate, new terrain, a new unit, and lacks combat experience. I have seen an interview with a dismayed soldier in the medical evacuation drill who said he was already a casualty for the third time in 2 days. An officer being interviewed explained that it was important for soldiers to see their platoon massacred by paintballs a few times so that they do not go into real combat feeling immortal. In real combat U.S. Army and marine units generally do not get annihilated. The results are not a realistic simulation but the training is still very good. American NCOs have a global reputation as being some of the best.

For officer training they should teach the next generation of officers how to win by any and all available tactics. Once the smart ones figure out how to win an objective by sacrificing his/her troops you take them out of the Pentagon basement. Go to the VA hospital and present a purple heart to veteran infected with drug resistant flesh eating bacteria. Then go down the hall and encourage a soldier trying to learn to walk with two artificial legs. Talk to a widow and her real children and try to convince them that "daddy's sacrifice for his country was worthwhile and that they should be proud". Then put the officer back in the basement for a few more rounds of table top. The table top/computer simulations are cheap and easy to repeat. An officer will have played scores of simulation before leading real troops into the paintball ambush. (S)He then gets to face the real soldiers (s)he "lost" repeatedly in every climate and terrain type. The officer in command needs to maintain respect from soldiers and receives reports on troop moral. A warrior can have contact with wargames and wargamers without become a gamer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby ftl » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:16 am

Aquillion wrote:I find it interesting that Maggie (who doesn't seem to be a particularly good strategist) is certain that her ruler is wrong, certain enough to risk her life by going against his orders, despite what would seem to be both his and Parson's opinions to the contrary.

I wonder why? Is it because, as a Thinkamancer, she has enough insight into Parson's mind to realize when he's trying to avoid responsibility?


I think I might be able to explain why.

Maggie may not know tactics, but she's a thinkamancer, so she knows MINDS. She can see that Stanley's going to make the decision for all the wrong reasons. She can see that Parson is going to LET him make that decision not because he honestly believes that Wanda's the best person to be making the tactical decisions, but because he's shirking his responsibilities. She can see that Parson is being content to let Wanda and co fight a conventional fight, when she's seen that he can do way better.

All of these things CAN be accessible to her just by her knowing HOW Parson, Stanley, and Wanda think, not the tactical details. She doesn't need to know what clever idea Parson will come up with to see that Parson, without being CW, wasn't going to even try to come up with the clever idea.

Of course, it was still risky. She didn't go against his orders - she had to trick him into giving her the order/permission to give the suggestion. And you bet that if Stanley remembers this after the effects wear off, Maggie's going to be in deep trouble. But I think I can understand why she'd do it even if she doesn't know tactics.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 33

Postby effataigus » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:23 pm

In addition to what ya'll said, Maggie seems to also believe that it is not in Gobwin Knob's best interests to have a decrypted Chief Warlord. We've seen a conversation between Wanda and Ansom that tells us that she is right to be afraid, but I'm still curious why she thinks this.
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