Book 2 – Page 34

[Carne]

Ansom could have crossed zones just fine. His death was from the fall he took from Bogroll's attack. He was unlucky (probability, dice roll, whatever), and was croaked by the fall or Bogroll applying the coup-de-grace. Bogroll fell too, "accidentally", that's what allowed him to get to the ground level, but he was only damaged on a lucky roll. The rule about how people and things can't deliberately cross zones off-turn, but can be dropped or "accidentally" fall, applies here.

I think.

Not quite. Wiki states that the owning side can cross city zones with no move even off turn in order to redistribute defenses. They treat the city as a single hex. Only the attackers have to submit to the zoning rules. So Bogroll could move from Garrison:Tower => Airspace (where Ansom was on the carpet) => Garrison:Courtyard, all with no move.

Assuming that tackling Ansom off the edge of the carpet is interpreted as a deliberate move from Airspace to Garrison:Courtyard by jumping. While foolhardy (see Jack's explanation of falling damage, Klog 002) it doesn't seem disallowable as a deliberate move attempt.

[enthar]

Regarding the discussion on Ceaser pulling a coup against Don..

In Erfworld, that move is insanely hard. Assuming you can ditch your Duty and Loyalty, there is the little problem that the Overlord can disband you with a thought. That means no amount of personal prowess will win you this conflict, no amount of friendly warlords on your side will help. The instant you attack, you disband, so sad try again next time.

So it has to be sneaky. It has to be subtle. The two instances of regicide that we know of and that were successful were:
Wanda inviting a foreign warlord to croak her own king.
Stanley getting the gobwins/hobgobwin natural allies to break alliance, croak the king, then come back and take over the side.

The common thread being- you gotta invite another side to do your dirty work. What side does Ceaser have contact with that can pull this off? If you are Chief Warlord/heir, you can move troops around such that a strike force can swoop in and take the capital while you are conveniently away, then (hopefully) they run off, maybe sacking the city as their 'pay', and you retake the capital and the side.

Charlie might offer his services, what with high powered units that can self-veil and a mercenary attitude that doesn't really want or need more cities... so how about it Ceaser, you /real/ friendly with Charlie right now? Do you trust a binding contract enough so that Charlie only demands schmuckers and doesn't make off with Ben and Bunny (your lover!) when he takes the capital? Yeah...

As idle speculation, I wonder if Ceaser or someone in his shoes could pull it off while Don slept. If you could one shot kill your ruler while they were sleeping/unconscious/unable to disband you, maybe you could pull it off without outsider intervention. Say, if your ruler was Shocked into a stupor. Or distracted by mind control or a really immersive thinkagram.

Then again, maybe warlords (possibly any unit with the guts) can choose to go barbarian as a way of 'turning'. If Ceaser leaves the capital one turn with a bunch of his friendly warlords, goes barbarian, then comes back, Don wouldn't have the chance to disband him, and wouldn't have a chance to vector forces against him as barbarians always go first in the turn order.

Interesting possibilities anyway.

[DevilDan]

Enthar, that's interesting speculation. But it is possible that the rules are slightly different for units attempting a coup.

Ya know, I try to be happy with what's on the page, and I understand that we're building up suspense and laying some groundwork in this page... but zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[ftl]

[

Because there's too much set-up:

The conflict between Don King and Caesar over Jillian
Don's over confidence, ordering the battle to be broadcast to everyone
Parson's being reinstated as Chief Warlord as a major turning point for GK
Trammenis' overconfidence, and Don King's confidence in him

It all adds up to a big sucker punch to the gut coming up.

There has been too much set-up
It's too obvious.

a sucker punch to who? the RCC or the Parson fanboys?

A loss here could result in the capture of Wanda, the creation of the Queen of the Undead if she croaks and auto-decrypts, or at least a major split with Stanley for using losing the army. GK is too big to be reduced to one city in quick succession, but Parson would be forced to become a field commander. Enough plot for you?

If things go badly for JS then Caesar will think that he has an opportunity to rally support among the Warlords and overthrow Don. OTOH if it goes well, Caesar must know his turns are numbered as CWL and he has to make a move soon.

Don wants Caesar to take a run at him. Why?
Just demoting or disbanding him costs loyalty of the other WLs.
He wants to see who sides with Caesar so he can deal with them too and have a completely loyal inner circle when the new heir pops.

Bunny is the key here, whichever one she sides with will come out on top.

One unrelated point. Parson will still have to account for Jillian in his plans until she passes a point of no return from Spacerock. He doesn't know for sure she won't be back until she is out of range.

I'd guess plot-wise, the right answer would be somewhere in the middle.

If Parson pulls off something brilliant enough to win the battle and thus destroy Jetstone, that leaves GK back on the unstoppable train - once Jetstone's not there to stand up to them, they can steamroll, having now decrypted another army and possibly another caster (or several, now that they're going back to the city.)

If Jetstone ends up having the clear victory they think they can have, then that ends with Wanda and Jack (and, more importantly, SCARLET) croaking, and I don't think that would be good for the story - there's a lot more to be said about the relations between decrypted and the rest.

So purely from a plot armor perspective, I'd expect something in the middle. Jetstone's going to survive, but so will Wanda and Jack. My guess is that it will be accomplished by a destruction of most-of-Wanda's-forces-but-not-Wanda, leaving them with nothing to take the garrison with. Parson's going to find a way to get Jack and Wanda to survive, but not anything more than that, and come next turn they'll run away on their dwagons. Jack might end up decrypted.


(Ooh, here's a cool possibility - Parson uses strategic intentional disbanding of dwagons, combined with a little foolamancy, to make it LOOK like Wanda croaked and her decrypted dusted. Live dragons pretend to autoengage with no leadership, get croaked and fall to the ground, after clearing out a little bit of space; one Dwagon, however, veiled as dead among all the other dead dwagons, is actually alive and hovering just over the ground (since airspace extends all the way down). Jetstone doesn't bother cleaning up the dead bodies - I mean, why bother, dead bodies automatically vanish after the turn ends, and besides, all the leadership is dead so they'd autoengage if alive. But when their turn ends, they see smoke rising from the dead bodies, they assume one of their own is burning them... the smoke turns out to be a veil for the one live dwagon, carrying Wanda and Jack, who then escape from the city. )

[effataigus]

a sucker punch to who? the RCC or the Parson fanboys?

I'm guessing that both will lose in this one.

As one possibility: if GK messes up JS, TV messes up itself, then Charlie captures Wanda out from under GK with his "significant forces in the battlespace" (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=/2009-12-20.png) then everyone but Charlie and Jillian would have lost in a big way. I could then see Charlie somehow offending Jillian and paving the way for 3 dominant sides that all hate each other.

[raphfrk]

(Ooh, here's a cool possibility - Parson uses strategic intentional disbanding of dwagons, combined with a little foolamancy, to make it LOOK like Wanda croaked and her decrypted dusted. Live dragons pretend to autoengage with no leadership, get croaked and fall to the ground, after clearing out a little bit of space; one Dwagon, however, veiled as dead among all the other dead dwagons, is actually alive and hovering just over the ground (since airspace extends all the way down). Jetstone doesn't bother cleaning up the dead bodies - I mean, why bother, dead bodies automatically vanish after the turn ends, and besides, all the leadership is dead so they'd autoengage if alive. But when their turn ends, they see smoke rising from the dead bodies, they assume one of their own is burning them... the smoke turns out to be a veil for the one live dwagon, carrying Wanda and Jack, who then escape from the city. )

Dead bodies disappear at the start of the next turn of the side that owned the unit. The corpses wouldn't disappear until the start of GK's next turn. This is to allow croakamancy to operate.

Thus, Jack would have to hold the veil during the night and then they do a quick escape at the start of the next day, when GK's turn starts.

Another issue is the pliers. There is no way Jetstone would not bother to search for them. Wanda would have to give it to her stunt double, so that Jetstone can find it. This would be a big loss for GK.

[ftl]

Another issue is the pliers. There is no way Jetstone would not bother to search for them. Wanda would have to give it to her stunt double, so that Jetstone can find it. This would be a big loss for GK.

You're completely right. I feel really stupid for not realizing that. Maybe Jack can try to make some fancy-looking foolamancy of the pliers bursting into flames or something when Wanda "croaks", but Jetstone wouldn't be stupid enough to buy that, they know there's a foolamancer around, the only veils that should work are those that match what Jetstone would think should happen anyway.

Also, keeping a veil overnight may be too hard. Though maybe due to the turnamancy spell, there might be weird stuff with GK resuming turn after Jetstone is over, but I wouldn't bet on it.

So my plan sucks ah well, I'm sure Parsons will be better.

[Altima]

@Bogroll/Ansom Fall damage: What's interesting is if Ansom died by fall, and not by Bogroll killing him, Bogroll still received full experience for killing a level ten warlord (thus leveling twice). Future experience exploit for Parson? Park dwagons above an enemy and bombard them with cwap, rinse, repeat, level.

@Don/Caesar discussion: I believe there's a special rule for perhaps nobles, heirs, and the like. After all, it seems kinda odd that there would be coups in a world where a ruler can end you with a thought. My interpretation is that the heir, at least, can no longer be disbanded by the side's ruler, which would explain why Stanley has never appointed an heir.

Also, I still think it's doubtful Stanley led the coup against Saline. I mean, he was promoted from the dump to chief warlord AND found an artifact (and Wanda wasn't there at that point to screw with his perceptions). He had to have phenominal Loyalty. Plus Stanley isn't that subtle. If all those reasons weren't enough, we have already seen Charlie screwing with natural allies on two different occasions, so... If anything, I think Charlie double-dealed Stanley, which led to Saline's death, and that's the reason Stanley despises Charlie (who I still maintain is female!).

[gazes_also]

[
I'd guess plot-wise, the right answer would be somewhere in the middle.

If Parson pulls off something brilliant enough to win the battle and thus destroy Jetstone, that leaves GK back on the unstoppable train - once Jetstone's not there to stand up to them, they can steamroll, having now decrypted another army and possibly another caster (or several, now that they're going back to the city.)

If Jetstone ends up having the clear victory they think they can have, then that ends with Wanda and Jack (and, more importantly, SCARLET) croaking, and I don't think that would be good for the story - there's a lot more to be said about the relations between decrypted and the rest.

So purely from a plot armor perspective, I'd expect something in the middle. Jetstone's going to survive, but so will Wanda and Jack. My guess is that it will be accomplished by a destruction of most-of-Wanda's-forces-but-not-Wanda, leaving them with nothing to take the garrison with. Parson's going to find a way to get Jack and Wanda to survive, but not anything more than that, and come next turn they'll run away on their dwagons. Jack might end up decrypted.

My guess is along the same lines, a ragged depleted force survives until the next turn starts, but Charlie grabs Wanda +/- Jack and any surviving Archons. He convinces Slately that she can't be allowed to escape and he's doing them a favour taking her and gives him Ossomer to seal the deal.
Charlie now has Wanda and promises both Jillian and Slately he will help them restore their beloved decrypts which gives him considerable leverage. Wanda accepts this as she thinks going with Charlie might put her back on the right path to bringing the tools together.

The title reference to 'raining men' could apply equally to some fiendish scheme by Parson and things going very very badly for GK.

[gameboy1234]

So it has to be sneaky. It has to be subtle. The two instances of regicide that we know of and that were successful were:
Wanda inviting a foreign warlord to croak her own king.
Stanley getting the gobwins/hobgobwin natural allies to break alliance, croak the king, then come back and take over the side.

The common thread being- you gotta invite another side to do your dirty work.

Not quite, I think.

First, we don't know for sure that it was Stanley who got the gobwins to revolt against King Saline. My personal theory is that it was Wanda, again, this time with a bunch of that yellow mind-control dust which we've seen used twice now.

The other point came in an update over the summer. King Don told us that he hadn't had an heir in a very long time (Caesar is a minor noble, just a very good fighter), because the last heir revolted against him. We don't know the circumstances, but it seems possible that revolts can and do happen, and might not be all that uncommon. I don't think they *have* to be sneaky to be successful. Just the ones we happen to know about were.

[davesnothere]

[
I'd guess plot-wise, the right answer would be somewhere in the middle.

If Parson pulls off something brilliant enough to win the battle and thus destroy Jetstone, that leaves GK back on the unstoppable train - once Jetstone's not there to stand up to them, they can steamroll, having now decrypted another army and possibly another caster (or several, now that they're going back to the city.)

If Jetstone ends up having the clear victory they think they can have, then that ends with Wanda and Jack (and, more importantly, SCARLET) croaking, and I don't think that would be good for the story - there's a lot more to be said about the relations between decrypted and the rest.

So purely from a plot armor perspective, I'd expect something in the middle. Jetstone's going to survive, but so will Wanda and Jack. My guess is that it will be accomplished by a destruction of most-of-Wanda's-forces-but-not-Wanda, leaving them with nothing to take the garrison with. Parson's going to find a way to get Jack and Wanda to survive, but not anything more than that, and come next turn they'll run away on their dwagons. Jack might end up decrypted.

My guess is along the same lines, a ragged depleted force survives until the next turn starts, but Charlie grabs Wanda +/- Jack and any surviving Archons. He convinces Slately that she can't be allowed to escape and he's doing them a favour taking her and gives him Ossomer to seal the deal.
Charlie now has Wanda and promises both Jillian and Slately he will help them restore their beloved decrypts which gives him considerable leverage. Wanda accepts this as she thinks going with Charlie might put her back on the right path to bringing the tools together.

The title reference to 'raining men' could apply equally to some fiendish scheme by Parson and things going very very badly for GK.

We know that Rob likes plot swings, so I expect this battle to go back and forth a bit. But I would not be suprised if ultimately Jetstone is taken out.
The shoe I''m waiting to see drop, is WTF that Charlie is up to. Perhaps he is planning an attack on GK using the Gobwins.
Jillian would be the distraction that takes their eyes off a possible sneak attack.
Depending on what happens, TV may become a reluctant ally or implode because of their internal politics.

Editing this message is painful ... for some reason the edit box is constantly scrolling back up hiding my typing.

[multilis]

Regarding the discussion on Ceaser pulling a coup against Don..

In Erfworld, that move is insanely hard. Assuming you can ditch your Duty and Loyalty, there is the little problem that the Overlord can disband you with a thought. That means no amount of personal prowess will win you this conflict, no amount of friendly warlords on your side will help. The instant you attack, you disband, so sad try again next time

I disagree, I suspect that as far as mechanics go, the attacker would get one surprise round/attack before the king/overlord could counter with a disband. As well we see tricks such as suggestion spell are possible, and even Wanda can do suggestion spells which suggests many casters can after they buy a little dust. Caesar *might* have Bunny loyal to him, and thinkomancers have some other nasty disabling/distracting magic as well.

TV had several attempts for coup already, a reason why Caesar got favored over royals, so some easier but still hard means is likely possible.

[splintermute]

Regarding the discussion on Ceaser pulling a coup against Don..

In Erfworld, that move is insanely hard. Assuming you can ditch your Duty and Loyalty, there is the little problem that the Overlord can disband you with a thought. That means no amount of personal prowess will win you this conflict, no amount of friendly warlords on your side will help. The instant you attack, you disband, so sad try again next time

I disagree, I suspect that as far as mechanics go, the attacker would get one surprise round/attack before the king/overlord could counter with a disband. As well we see tricks such as suggestion spell are possible, and even Wanda can do suggestion spells which suggests many casters can after they buy a little dust. Caesar *might* have Bunny loyal to him, and thinkomancers have some other nasty disabling/distracting magic as well.

TV had several attempts for coup already, a reason why Caesar got favored over royals, so some easier but still hard means is likely possible.

One surprise attack would probably be sufficient for most rulers - Don and Slately (and presumably Saline and Bea and Dickey) didn't get out very much, which suggests that they're low level - at least physically, although they may be very high level "rulers" - with few hit points, such that one attack could croak them.

It would probably be more difficult to stage a coup against more physically powerful rulers like Stanley and Jillian (and Don's "father"? He did go out to fight a duel). That might be why royal heir CWLs are so common - you want them to level as much as possible, and gain as many HPs as possible, before they assume the throne and their opportunities for leveling drop significantly (unless they're as callous and suicidal as Jillian), to forestall the possibility of a coup.

[Zak3056]

Is it just me or does Bunny look really hot in that last panel. A kingdom could well be lost for that woman...

Was this the face that launched a thousand bats, and burnt the topless towers of Transelvito?

[HailGreen28]

Ansom could have crossed zones just fine. His death was from the fall he took from Bogroll's attack. He was unlucky (probability, dice roll, whatever), and was croaked by the fall or Bogroll applying the coup-de-grace. Bogroll fell too, "accidentally", that's what allowed him to get to the ground level, but he was only damaged on a lucky roll. The rule about how people and things can't deliberately cross zones off-turn, but can be dropped or "accidentally" fall, applies here.

I think.

Not quite. Wiki states that the owning side can cross city zones with no move even off turn in order to redistribute defenses. They treat the city as a single hex. Only the attackers have to submit to the zoning rules. So Bogroll could move from Garrison:Tower => Airspace (where Ansom was on the carpet) => Garrison:Courtyard, all with no move.

Assuming that tackling Ansom off the edge of the carpet is interpreted as a deliberate move from Airspace to Garrison:Courtyard by jumping. While foolhardy (see Jack's explanation of falling damage, Klog 002) it doesn't seem disallowable as a deliberate move attempt.

Deliberate or not, there's good reason for Bogroll to have made it to the ground either way, where he was destroyed AFTER he landed and leveled.

Re: Your original question: What happens if a unit is about to fall through an air/ground zone boundary? I think the answer is going to be related to the theme "It's Raining Men". (Hallejulah! lol!) Bet it's as spectacular as the Uncroaked Volcano of Doom.

[Lothmar]

- - Is... Is Translyvito's Shockamancer... Ben Franklin!? ~chuckle~ Okay, now that's funny.

[raphfrk]

- - Is... Is Translyvito's Shockamancer... Ben Franklin!? ~chuckle~ Okay, now that's funny.

He's a moneymancer.

[gazes_also]

Regarding the discussion on Ceaser pulling a coup against Don..

In Erfworld, that move is insanely hard. Assuming you can ditch your Duty and Loyalty, there is the little problem that the Overlord can disband you with a thought. That means no amount of personal prowess will win you this conflict, no amount of friendly warlords on your side will help. The instant you attack, you disband, so sad try again next time

I disagree, I suspect that as far as mechanics go, the attacker would get one surprise round/attack before the king/overlord could counter with a disband. As well we see tricks such as suggestion spell are possible, and even Wanda can do suggestion spells which suggests many casters can after they buy a little dust. Caesar *might* have Bunny loyal to him, and thinkomancers have some other nasty disabling/distracting magic as well.

TV had several attempts for coup already, a reason why Caesar got favored over royals, so some easier but still hard means is likely possible.

One surprise attack would probably be sufficient for most rulers - Don and Slately (and presumably Saline and Bea and Dickey) didn't get out very much, which suggests that they're low level - at least physically, although they may be very high level "rulers" - with few hit points, such that one attack could croak them.

It would probably be more difficult to stage a coup against more physically powerful rulers like Stanley and Jillian (and Don's "father"? He did go out to fight a duel). That might be why royal heir CWLs are so common - you want them to level as much as possible, and gain as many HPs as possible, before they assume the throne and their opportunities for leveling drop significantly (unless they're as callous and suicidal as Jillian), to forestall the possibility of a coup.

The way to sidestep the natural loyalty/duty of subordinates to the ruler would be to use units who are naturally independent-minded (casters), are only indirectly loyal ( natural allies) or whose loyalty can be bought (mercenaries / Archons). Any of these could muster the power to take out a ruler given the element of surprise. Surprise and opportunity are the hard parts.
Does the usurper have to appear to have clean hands and be remote for the action? With a weak and unsuccessful ruler, probably not. With a successful strong ruler, almost certainly.
If Don goes down with no heir designated, TV falls into civil war with Caesar playing Brutus to Vinny's Mark Anthony. One way or another the odds don't appear to favour Caesar, unless he can get Bunny to have Don name him heir.

[Altima]

If Don goes down with no heir designated, TV falls into civil war with Caesar playing Brutus to Vinny's Mark Anthony. One way or another the odds don't appear to favour Caesar, unless he can get Bunny to have Don name him heir.

Caesar is the heir (at least, until the 'royal' unit under production pops...), so if Don croaks, whatever the circumstances, Caesar is immediately promoted to ruler, whereupon he can disband anyone who presents a problem, or otherwise have them croaked or turned (Vinny would probably go to Faq, for example). I doubt civil wars can occur, unless there's a mechanic that nobles or whatever can form new sides on their own.

[SteveMB]

Surprise and opportunity are the hard parts.

Surprise... and opportunity... and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Titans....