Book 2 – Page 35

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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Krennson » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:42 pm

BCCroaker wrote:Jetstone can't designate an heir for 16 turns, so if Slately is croaked in the meantime it is still possible that Ossomer will inherit, despite being decrypted. In that case Wanda would be in control of a major side through him. Assuming they both survive.


I think it's more of "Jetstone is growing a prince-heir in it's capital city, and won't be finished for another 16 turns.

If they HAD ENOUGH SMUCKERS, they could 'buy' an heir upgrade for tremmenis right now, but they don't.

At a guess, it works something like this:

Popping a prince takes X turns

Popping a prince who is also an heir takes X+5 turns.

Promoting a 'mere' prince so that he is also a heir takes Y schmuckers.

I'm guessing that Tremmenis was popped as a normal prince to handle diplomatic duties, and would have been promoted to Prince-heir if he ever showed any interest in warfare and leadership, but he didn't.

I THINK that "Heir" and "Heir-designate" are two different things.... you can have as many "heirs" as you want, but you can only designate one at a time as the prince which will succeed you in the event of your death.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby gameboy1234 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Kaed wrote:
BCCroaker wrote:Jetstone can't designate an heir for 16 turns, so if Slately is croaked in the meantime it is still possible that Ossomer will inherit, despite being decrypted. In that case Wanda would be in control of a major side through him. Assuming they both survive.


I keep seeing this idea crop up, and it still doesn't make sense. When someone croaks they loose their Heir designation because they are NOT ALIVE anymore. Uncroaking or Decryping them just means that side gets a new unit with varied stats or intelligence.



It keeps popping up because Parson mentioned it at the start of book 2. It's unknown (Parson says "we don't know") but it was mentioned as a possibility after decrypting Ossomer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby oslecamo2 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:20 pm

Great to see Tramennis in smart mode again! :mrgreen:

However, the real question now is...

Even trough he understood Charlie is pulling the strings behind the scenes, what can he do about it?

Parley? Make some kind of non agression treaty with GK and let them go to keep the balance of forces?

Well, just look at the BIG smile in his face! He's cooking up something.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby gazes_also » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:31 pm

Poor Slately, the world has passed him by.
He's lost two heirs to the evil witch, he's almost bankrupt, he's being given orders by a king he thinks inferior, he's being manipulated by an overlord he despised, was rescued by a 'Barbarian Queen' he thinks contemptible, and his army is in the hands of a son he doesn't think is up to it.

And even if he wanted to, he can't pack it in for 16 turns.

The noble house of Jestone has fallen a very long way.

It's hard not to feel sorry for the arrogant old duffer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:32 pm

Radagast wrote:Ummm... is he talking about himself or Parson in the last panel?


He doesn't know about Parson. He's referring to Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby BoopingCynic » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:08 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:
Kaed wrote:
BCCroaker wrote:Jetstone can't designate an heir for 16 turns, so if Slately is croaked in the meantime it is still possible that Ossomer will inherit, despite being decrypted. In that case Wanda would be in control of a major side through him. Assuming they both survive.


I keep seeing this idea crop up, and it still doesn't make sense. When someone croaks they loose their Heir designation because they are NOT ALIVE anymore. Uncroaking or Decryping them just means that side gets a new unit with varied stats or intelligence.



It keeps popping up because Parson mentioned it at the start of book 2. It's unknown (Parson says "we don't know") but it was mentioned as a possibility after decrypting Ossomer.

There is also Ansom's constant references to being "Popped again" which may make it different than before. Remember normal Uncroaked do not keep their previous stats but decrypted did.
Btw was Ansom Heir beforehand? I forget.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby spriteless » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:34 pm

BoopingCynic wrote:
gameboy1234 wrote:You may embed only 3 quotes within each other.

There is also Ansom's constant references to being "Popped again" which may make it different than before. Remember normal Uncroaked do not keep their previous stats but decrypted did.
Btw was Ansom Heir beforehand? I forget.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby badninja » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:17 am

Well I think that old Stately is going to give birth to a dwagon when he gets this news. I have seen it suggested that people know know that Charlie helps keep conflicts going or get started, but only one person knows this and he is sitting in GK planning something nasty. :twisted:

I feel that from here on out all news should be viewed as bad news for all parties. I am not a betting man, but when Charlies involvement gets out the shit will hit the proverbial fan and this battle will end up as a major mess.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby the_tick_rules » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:19 am

Aww, Jetstone is broke, how sad. Charlie might have problems now to. If his clients find out how naughty he is he might not get so many contracts, and charlie apparently has massive operating costs.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby cdrcjsn » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:23 am

badninja wrote:Well I think that old Stately is going to give birth to a dwagon when he gets this news. I have seen it suggested that people know know that Charlie helps keep conflicts going or get started, but only one person knows this and he is sitting in GK planning something nasty. :twisted:


Only parson knows for sure, but I wouldn't put it past Trammenis to suspect it.

After all, from his point of view, it seems that Charlie is helping Wanda (Archons in her group, as well as being in control of a Tool) and was giving secret commands to his allies (both Jillian and Sammy). That makes it seem like he was manipulating both sides.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Joe Falco » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:28 am

King Slately wrote:As it is, we've had most field units wasting move hunting and foraging. We have harvested three sourmanders we can scarce afford to spare. With the end of this fight, we may finally...


I'm wondering what Slately was going to say before he was interrupted. With all this talk of how perilous Jetstone's finances are, perhaps Slately is thinking of splitting off his side in order to cut costs.

But then again, he probably was going to say about how grand everything will be once Wanda is croaked and the pliers are returned to Jetstone's hands.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Sieggy » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:33 am

Just as an aside, FLARF is also the Ft. Lauderdale Renaissance Festival, which Tremennis is definitely dressed for.

And he looks like he's got some REALLY good gossip to dish, too. I definitely think that Slately is going to have massive Shyttes, Fyttes, and Ye Olde Blynde Staggres when Trem drops the Charlie bomb him. Where I think Trem and Slately are going to have trouble is when he tries to tell his father that Toolism seems to be a sham . . . Trem has no reason to think that Jillian lied, and Slately will steadfastly refuse to believe it. Since Trem is a counterintel / diplomatic specialist, he's going to have ideas that Slately Will NOT care for in the least.

The question is whether or not they're going to live long enough to let the Don know about all this. If so, it'll be interesting if Caesar is present when he finds out, in a really rather unpleasant sort of way.

Jetstone's financial embarrassment is certainly an interesting development, especially in view of GK's sudden riches. If Parson finds out about this, it gives him some options to discuss with Trem, assuming he's included in the parley. It also means that Ossomer is NOT the heir, as it would seem JS hasn't had the funds to make the switchover. Now, since Slately didn't find out until later on in the campaign that Ansom was still sort of alive, without the ability to reassign an heir, does that mean Ansom is still heir? If getting popped again allows you to retain all of your characteristics, it may mean that Jillian has a lot more on her hands than she's aware of. If Slately gets croaked, they could be a truly royal couple, and it also means that Trem won't disband . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby ftl » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:58 am

Sieggy wrote:J. It also means that Ossomer is NOT the heir, as it would seem JS hasn't had the funds to make the switchover. Now, since Slately didn't find out until later on in the campaign that Ansom was still sort of alive, without the ability to reassign an heir, does that mean Ansom is still heir?


It means that NOW, THIS TURN Jetstone does not have the schmuckers to assign an heir. When Ansom croaked, Jetstone was still well off, and made Ossomer the heir.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Swodaems » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:16 am

Nice to see Don caring about the welfare of Jetstone's general. Of course he may merely be looking for an opportunity to grab a useful unit.

Could Jetstone be using schmuckers to help coerce some sides of the coalition into fighting? Don King's similar money problems would suggest not, but just because Don King is willing to fight at a big loss, doesn't mean everyone else is. I had hereforeto assumed Jetstone to be one of the richer sides considering it was able to send off a big force to conquer gobwin knob and had so many cities bringing in income. They could have lost alot of cities to GK before the fall of unaroyal, but I was under the impression the cities lost mostly belonged to unaroyal itself. (The 10 cities that Stanley lost pre Parson, but were recently were reclaimed by Ansom, were probably split between Unaroyal and Jetstone as the largest non natural sides. They don't factor into the equation mostly because I assume Stanley lost them quickly and Jetstone had to use mostly its pre RCC strength, but that's debatable. I therefore don't think ansom's conquerings should have hit jetstone this drastically.) Jetstone's treasury should have spiked post volcano with so many units and their upkeep requirements lost, (assuming the units represented the lion's share of their upkeep, of course. They did keep the 4 expensive casters, the 2 other princes, and some protective forces behind, but I don't think that would out weigh the sheer amount of upkeep decrease that would have happened when those 2000+ units were lost.)

The hesitation before Slately said 'to lead' interests me. It really makes me question the ideals of both Trem and Slately (since I consider Slately to be the epitome of erfworld Royal rulers and sides, (at least in this region of the world,) his ideals speaks for alot of others.) When he attacked the column, we found Trem usually wants to steel himself up for battle by thinking about losses he suffered. He probably doesn't like losing people anymore than parson does. How rare is actually caring about the people next to you in Erfworld? I don't think Slately does much because of how his updates have mostly centered on him thinking about how he should act in order to let him keep his own self image.

The most interesting thing about the update was Slately saying that the move of a Foraging field unit was wasted. Last I checked, move was use it or lose it. The only way to actually waste it is to not use it. Foraging sounds like something a side should always be trying to do. While it may be a problem if the unit isn't where it needs to be at turns end or during action, but good planning should always be able to get some value out of foraging while meeting any alternate conditions you may have. Of course, you can also lose the unit if it finds something it can't handle, like an enemy heavy, but in that case the unit has still performed well as a scout. (You might also make an enemy if the unled hunter stumbles upon an unallied, but neutral force, but that problem is solved by having good communications with any neighbors that may threaten you if provoked.) I can think of only 5 explanations for Slately’s comment:
A: His side usually forages within limits designed to still allow the side to achieve any alternate goals, but recently has had to make sacrifices in those goals to allow for adequate foraging.
B: He thinks foraging is beneath him, something poor barbarians do.
C: He and his high ranked officers are too incompetent, overworked, or lazy to come up with decent foraging strategies. (Probably overworked or lazy in Trem’s case) (Any other person on the side capable of plotting the movements probably lacks the authority.)
D: This is a money-losing extension of the same line of thinking that says that relays are a waste of flyers.
E: A game mechanic that gives an advantage for not spending move, like a move based tiring debuff system. (possibly affecting the theoretical morale stat) Unlikely as we should have seen evidence for something like this before now. (Ansom wanting to keep the gumps fresh in book one may simply mean he wanted them uninjured. Ansom wanting sleep in the summer update describing the relay system does not apply as he was both mounted, allowing him to conserve his own move, and the context of the update implied that he was thinking in turns of time. We have seen little evidence of time based sleep deprivation meaning much outside of a vague Maggie comment in book 1.)


One last thing. Can anyone find me a specific point when Ossomer is said to be heir in the comic or text updates? (By specific, I mean I want an actual link and quote.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Intruder » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:04 am

Well, one thing we need to keep in mind is that we don't know at what rates shmuckers come in, particularly since some forms of income like gems and such are apparently finite. It's also worth noting that gems were shown as being mined by marbits in the first page of the comic. Assuming that other units are needed to mine, it may very well be that a lot of Jetstone's workforce was pressed into service for the final push into GK. So Jetstone may have been operating with a temporarily crippled income while betting that they'd either take GK or realize that they had failed, allowing to come back home and reorganize. Just plain getting eradicated was never on the drawing board, and frankly, I can hardly blame them for thinking that given the circumstances. Building up an army again after such a disaster and so many turns of Charlie shaking them down could easily have put them into a pretty dire position.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Snowtitan » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:12 am

3 things come to mind when reading this...
1) No heir = croak Slately win the fight
2) Is it tactically a good Idea to tell an 'Allied' commander in chief that you're broke, and does he know Don is also Broke, this could be misinformation
3) those thinkagram effects are translucent, call me a pervert if you like, but just where is Don looking?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Squishalot » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:31 am

Swodaems wrote:I can think of only 5 explanations for Slately’s comment:
A: His side usually forages within limits designed to still allow the side to achieve any alternate goals, but recently has had to make sacrifices in those goals to allow for adequate foraging.
B: He thinks foraging is beneath him, something poor barbarians do.
C: He and his high ranked officers are too incompetent, overworked, or lazy to come up with decent foraging strategies. (Probably overworked or lazy in Trem’s case) (Any other person on the side capable of plotting the movements probably lacks the authority.)
D: This is a money-losing extension of the same line of thinking that says that relays are a waste of flyers.
E: A game mechanic that gives an advantage for not spending move, like a move based tiring debuff system.


I'll venture another reason. In an old TBS game I used to play, warlords were given the ability to gather food, make improvements to local infrastructure (improving annual food/gold revenue / decreasing likelihood of negative weather) or solicit gold from the population.

It's possible that you require a warlord to forage, meaning that they spend less time overseeing cities (perhaps if a warlord expends move overseeing a city, it increases bonuses by more?), or alternatively, there are similar things that other units can obtain. If they spend time foraging for food, they spend less time mining for shmuckers?

Snowtitan wrote:3) those thinkagram effects are translucent, call me a pervert if you like, but just where is Don looking?


Bunny is on his side, he's half-turned to face her, hence the strange angle that Slately sees.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby ftl » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:53 am

Swodaems wrote:The most interesting thing about the update was Slately saying that the move of a Foraging field unit was wasted. Last I checked, move was use it or lose it. The only way to actually waste it is to not use it. Foraging sounds like something a side should always be trying to do. While it may be a problem if the unit isn't where it needs to be at turns end or during action, but good planning should always be able to get some value out of foraging while meeting any alternate conditions you may have. Of course, you can also lose the unit if it finds something it can't handle, like an enemy heavy, but in that case the unit has still performed well as a scout. (You might also make an enemy if the unled hunter stumbles upon an unallied, but neutral force, but that problem is solved by having good communications with any neighbors that may threaten you if provoked.) I can think of only 5 explanations for Slately’s comment:
A: His side usually forages within limits designed to still allow the side to achieve any alternate goals, but recently has had to make sacrifices in those goals to allow for adequate foraging.
B: He thinks foraging is beneath him, something poor barbarians do.
C: He and his high ranked officers are too incompetent, overworked, or lazy to come up with decent foraging strategies. (Probably overworked or lazy in Trem’s case) (Any other person on the side capable of plotting the movements probably lacks the authority.)
D: This is a money-losing extension of the same line of thinking that says that relays are a waste of flyers.
E: A game mechanic that gives an advantage for not spending move, like a move based tiring debuff system. (possibly affecting the theoretical morale stat) Unlikely as we should have seen evidence for something like this before now. (Ansom wanting to keep the gumps fresh in book one may simply mean he wanted them uninjured. Ansom wanting sleep in the summer update describing the relay system does not apply as he was both mounted, allowing him to conserve his own move, and the context of the update implied that he was thinking in turns of time. We have seen little evidence of time based sleep deprivation meaning much outside of a vague Maggie comment in book 1.)


IMO you're overthinking it.

Foraging takes Move. Regardless of how that's implemented, any Move spent foraging is Move NOT spent moving towards your objective. No amount of planning is going to change the fact that, because Jetstone is low on Schmuckers, Jetstone units have less move than they otherwise would. Good planning can partially get around that - but only partially. If a unit wants to traverse the distance between the city where it's popped and Spacerock, the fasterst way to go is a straight line - there's no planning that can get around the fact that the unit is getting from where it's useless to where it's useful, and that doing so takes longer than normal because it has to spend Move foraging. And, even in less stringent conditions - the requirement to forage is one more requirement, and additional constraints are *always* harmful, even if in some cases they might not matter.

One last thing. Can anyone find me a specific point when Ossomer is said to be heir in the comic or text updates? (By specific, I mean I want an actual link and quote.)


http://www.erfworld.com/page/44/

Panel 6 says Jetstone's Heir, Panel 8 clarifies that it's Ossomer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Lord Kasavin » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:12 am

I like this update, it really shows Slately trying to make the best of a very crummy situation. He is also completely right about Jillian. She tried to get Wanda to turn and kill him. The fact Wanda refused on her terms and Jillian used a trick Charlie set up to trap her is a small comfort. Though, it does keep Slately and Jetstone alive.

Other thoughts...

Trem is about to tell Slately Charlie's involvement. Trem seems to be acting like this is good news. And quite frankly, it is. First and foremost, it means Charlie isn't on GK's side. That's important. Not only does it means not worrying about Charlie's superior thinkamancy aiding and GK has a limited supply of Archons, it also means Charlie can be hired. Furthermore, it seems more than plausible (maybe Trem picked up on this) that Charlie is doing some of this stuff *gasp* pro bono. That gives Jetstone a lot of leverage should they choose to hire Charlie, since he apparently is gunning for GK as well. Slately might not like the fact that Charlie is playing behind the scenes, but it does show that Tools are not united.

Somethings to keep in minds, units that stay inside cities that are "managed" by a Warlord get cheaper maintainence. this discount probably is more than enough to keep units inside cities instead of spending every turn foraging. Considering the 40+ Warlords outside the bridge alongside Jetstone's finest means some cities are not being managed... and obviously the units defending the bridge are not getting that discount. The accumulation of such a large force outside Spacerock undoubtedly caused a spike in expenses while "banks" of schmuckers were spent beforehand to produce as many units as quickly as possible.

Parson appears to be an unknown to the RCC2, though not to Charlie who doesn't want Parson to know he is actively assiting GK. The simplest explanation for Charlie's secrecy is if he remains an unknown Parson won't be able to account for him. Meanwhile, Slately and Trem have to no reason to believe the following: a) that Parson is still alive after the Volcano blast, b) that Parson was competent (and not just doing what a "witch" told him, for example), and c) that Parson is anything other than a promoted infantrymen. Afterall, if Parson is GK's greatest asset, why isn't he still Chief Warlord and why isn't he on the frontline fighting for the side? From Jetstone's perspective, it makes sense to assign threat levels based on visibility, and only Slately, Wanda, Ansom, and other decrypted are visible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Aquillion » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:21 am

Kaed wrote:I keep seeing this idea crop up, and it still doesn't make sense. When someone croaks they loose their Heir designation because they are NOT ALIVE anymore. Uncroaking or Decryping them just means that side gets a new unit with varied stats or intelligence.

If Jetstone's Heir Designate title remained mysteriously attached to Ossomer after his death, how are they supposed to declare a new one? I'd think that the Ruler of a side could tell who his Heir Designate was, and if it's for some reason working for the other side.
You keep seeing it because Parson himself suggested it: "You have Jetstone's heir, so the whole side should fall. Or possibly convert, we don't know." The "we" implies that this possibility has been discussed (they've gotten uncroaked heirs before, recall) and nobody is sure what will happen.
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