Book 2 – Page 35

[Intruder]

I get the sense that people are judging Slately's opinion of Tramennis a bit too severely, even if Don seems to have noticed some friction. Slately's problem with Tramennis may really be just as simple as the fact that he's apparently a warlord who isn't terribly fond of leading. That's understandable. As someone who's made a long history of disregarding what his parents have wanted, I can say with some confidence that it doesn't necessarily preclude having a pretty good relationship even if it creates some friction at times.

As for the above post, I honestly don't see how you can fault Tramennis for not bringing a combined arms force to bear against GK's piddling would-be garrison force when he's in a situation in which handful of arrows may very well turn out to be worth more in the big scheme of things than one of the heavies he charged with. The update indicated that Wrigley's stack fought what was described as the nearest and weakest stack (infantry led by a level 1 warlord), and even that confrontation apparently went 3-1 in favor of the RCCII. Scoring a rout with unneeded forces isn't a bad deal, and sometimes you need to fight with the army you have rather than the one you wish for.

[DoctorJest]

Hat messages are not expensive - especially not compared to thinkagrams, considering what the archons were charging - and especially not to JS, since they have their own hat mage and presumably get FREE HAT!

I thought hats were valuable resources. Do you have a source for this?

We haven't had any mention of the price of a hat. Little is known about them beyond the fact that they're magic items, there are at least 2 kinds (dual use and abjuration-only), and some of them are Jetstone property - presumably because they were made by Cubbins.

And valuable enough to recover if dropped (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0024.html)

Additionally, where exactly was it established that Cubbins is a Hat Magician?

Yes, hats probably are very valuable on the magic item open market - however, if your side has a hat mage, and your CWL is so profligate with his hats that he can freely lend one to a temporarily allied barbarian mercenary captain (albeit one he's in love with), you can probably assume that Jetstone can afford enough hats to keep a line of communication open between its CWL and its ruler.

Except that the communication to Tremm from King Slately came via a scroll, not a hat. If hats are so cheap for them, why wouldn't all royals (and warlords) just be issued one standard?

[Flyer]

Additionally, where exactly was it established that Cubbins is a Hat Magician?

Oh, I thought Dr. Seuss had this one covered... hint: his first name is Bartholomew...

[splintermute]

Except that the communication to Tremm from King Slately came via a scroll, not a hat. If hats are so cheap for them, why wouldn't all royals (and warlords) just be issued one standard?

The scroll came on GK's turn. And Tramennis sent a reply scroll on GK's turn. Jetstone runners wouldn't have had any move, so the only way the messages could have been conveyed back and forth from the capital is via hat (unless the scrolls acted as some kind of eye-book, which is unlikely). The Jetstone camp probably has a central hat tent, the way we would have a communications tent on a modern battleground.

The princes wouldn't necessarily be lugging their hats around with them all the time - Ansom left his hat in his tent when Jillian went out scouting - and even if they did, there'd have been no reason for Tramennis to have one - he wasn't heir or CWL at the time.

And I never said hats weren't valuable - they're magic items, and worth recovering. That doesn't mean Jetstone didn't have plenty (although maybe fewer now - if you're in desperate financial straits, you could be driven to selling off your wardrobe). But no matter how many or how few hats your side had, if you were relying on them, rather than thinkamancers, for communication, you would probably try to always keep one in your ruler's hex and one in your CWL's hex.

[Dr Pepper]

Additionally, where exactly was it established that Cubbins is a Hat Magician?

A lot of people see the name "Cubbins" and think of "The 500 Hats of Bartholemew Cubbins" by Dr. Seuss. Of course, by that logic, since the same character appears in "Bartholemew and the Oobleck", he might just as well be a stickymancer. Except, as far as we know, there's no such thing.

[The Black Hand]

Gotta disagree. There's a lot of Tramennis fanboyism on these forums, which is ok because he's a cool character, but he's a piss-poor general. He may be a smart guys, but Sizemore and Wanda are both pretty smart and neither is a particularly adept field commander.

Tramennis doesn't scout. He seems to care more about appearance than about efficiency. He noted that the Dwagons parked above Spacerock could zing him but, despite the potentially devastating loss that would be to Jetstone, refused to take even rudimentary safety precautions. He does not have backup plans, does not seem willing to utilize effective combined arms tactics (note: blobbing up all of your units and charging an enemy position is not what combined arms means). He's a bit more of a cynic than his brothers but he's still not particularly flexible, and for all his vaunted skill at diplomacy he still hasn't convinced anyone else to do anything they weren't already going to do (couldn't get Haggar to play nice until Charlie did his job for him, couldn't get Jillian to stick around, couldn't get Sammy to plan strategy with him before going in).

I see why his father doesn't like him much. He's cute and snide and quotable and not nearly as competent as either of his brothers.

Y'see, that's exactly why I said Parson would win any armed conflicts between himself and Tramennis, but could still possibly lose the war - at least, if Tramennis did what he was good at.

Remember, Tramennis is a diplomacy and counter-intelligence specialist. Thus, he's good at negotiation and espionage (he'd have to be, in order to be good at counter-intelligence stuff - knowing how an enemy's spies act is key to rendering them useless to that enemy and/or convincing them to work for you, after all).

So I could see Tramennis using soldiers to keep Parson's attention focused on the military aspect of things while he (Tramennis) slipped spies, saboteurs, and other such units into Parson's cities in an attempt to foment unrest and incite rebellions - sort of the way you could in Civilization.

After all . . . if units have a Loyalty stat, why shouldn't the cities where they're made? And if they do - and you can influence City Loyalty - well, you could get a city to switch sides.

(Don't mind me, I'm just theorizing here.)

[ftl]

So I could see Tramennis using soldiers to keep Parson's attention focused on the military aspect of things while he (Tramennis) slipped spies, saboteurs, and other such units into Parson's cities in an attempt to foment unrest and incite rebellions - sort of the way you could in Civilization.

After all . . . if units have a Loyalty stat, why shouldn't the cities where they're made? And if they do - and you can influence City Loyalty - well, you could get a city to switch sides.

(Don't mind me, I'm just theorizing here.)

We've had really no indication that that is possible. Cities have never been shown as independent entities - how can a city Turn if it's filled with units? It would be automatically recaptured.

Saboteurs I suppose I can imagine - you slip a veiled unit through the gates, destroy some key building... but, again, would be much more tricky than it seems because any Warlord who looked at the saboteur or spy would instantly see that it's an enemy unit (stats are visible, remember) and kill it.

But besides, that was never mentioned as Tramennis strengths. What he said his usual job was was "diplomacy and treachery-prevention." Nothing there about inciting treachery or sabotage. Heck, even "treachery-prevention" seems like it would mean preventing allies from betraying them - nothing about internal politics there, just managing alliances.

[The Black Hand]

But besides, that was never mentioned as Tramennis strengths. What he said his usual job was was "diplomacy and treachery-prevention." Nothing there about inciting treachery or sabotage. Heck, even "treachery-prevention" seems like it would mean preventing allies from betraying them - nothing about internal politics there, just managing alliances.

Treachery prevention is, when you get right down to it, a form of counter-intelligence. You need to know how people think in order to be able to predict how they might betray you, and what steps you should take to keep that from happening.

And if you know how someone thinks when it comes to such acts, you can usually figure out what treacherous strategies they themselves might be vulnerable to.

[Decorus]

Parson could win this battle without ever having to do his ugly idea simply by Parleying with Tram.
Once Tram finds out who Parson is and he is now Chief Warlord Tram being intelligent will be unwilling to fight simply because the last time GK was in a similar untenable situation they annihilated a vastly superior force not on thier turn.
Its not worth the risk when Parson would probably be more then willing to withdraw GK forces from Jetstone and Stanely would throw a shit fit, but next turn is a whole nother proposition.

[ftl]

Treachery prevention is, when you get right down to it, a form of counter-intelligence. You need to know how people think in order to be able to predict how they might betray you, and what steps you should take to keep that from happening.

And if you know how someone thinks when it comes to such acts, you can usually figure out what treacherous strategies they themselves might be vulnerable to.

Sure, I can agree with that. But, at the end of the day, it's all inter-alliance politics, and NOT inciting individual cities from a side, as was being discussed.

[splintermute]

So I could see Tramennis using soldiers to keep Parson's attention focused on the military aspect of things while he (Tramennis) slipped spies, saboteurs, and other such units into Parson's cities in an attempt to foment unrest and incite rebellions - sort of the way you could in Civilization.

After all . . . if units have a Loyalty stat, why shouldn't the cities where they're made? And if they do - and you can influence City Loyalty - well, you could get a city to switch sides.

(Don't mind me, I'm just theorizing here.)

We've had really no indication that that is possible. Cities have never been shown as independent entities - how can a city Turn if it's filled with units? It would be automatically recaptured.

Saboteurs I suppose I can imagine - you slip a veiled unit through the gates, destroy some key building... but, again, would be much more tricky than it seems because any Warlord who looked at the saboteur or spy would instantly see that it's an enemy unit (stats are visible, remember) and kill it.

But besides, that was never mentioned as Tramennis strengths. What he said his usual job was was "diplomacy and treachery-prevention." Nothing there about inciting treachery or sabotage. Heck, even "treachery-prevention" seems like it would mean preventing allies from betraying them - nothing about internal politics there, just managing alliances.

I thought only friendly unit stats were visible, although it wouldn't make a difference in this case - if you see a unit without stats, it's an enemy unit.

Even if cities did have a loyalty stat (based, presumably, on the collective loyalty of its citizens), Tramennis wouldn't be dealing with conventional "turnable" cities - he'd be facing cities full of units that are madly, desperately in love with Wanda (or Stanley, if they're dwagons).

[MarbitChow]

Parson could win this battle without ever having to do his ugly idea simply by Parleying with Tram.
Once Tram finds out who Parson is and he is now Chief Warlord Tram being intelligent will be unwilling to fight simply because the last time GK was in a similar untenable situation they annihilated a vastly superior force not on thier turn.
Its not worth the risk when Parson would probably be more then willing to withdraw GK forces from Jetstone and Stanely would throw a shit fit, but next turn is a whole nother proposition.

That's not really an option for Jetstone, if they have any knowledge of what GK is capable of. GK keeps getting stronger: 2-3 dwagons each turn, over a dozen cities popping forces, and that's without factoring the decrypted forces (many of which are now dust, but they were all free).

Jetstone, on the other hand, is already stretched to its limits, just to be able to hold off the attacking force. They may be able to use the time to gain more allies, but as long as Wanda lives, GK is nearly unstoppable: assaults against GK would require tremendous forces, with croaked forces on both sides rising even stronger to defend GK.

Jetstone really must take out Wanda now if they're going to have a chance.

[Lamech]

Parson could win this battle without ever having to do his ugly idea simply by Parleying with Tram.
Once Tram finds out who Parson is and he is now Chief Warlord Tram being intelligent will be unwilling to fight simply because the last time GK was in a similar untenable situation they annihilated a vastly superior force not on thier turn.
Its not worth the risk when Parson would probably be more then willing to withdraw GK forces from Jetstone and Stanely would throw a shit fit, but next turn is a whole nother proposition.

While Tram knows that GK annilated a massive force off turn he does now a couple things:
1) It was a dirtamancy trap. Maybe the trap was mobile, but maybe is was fixed into the city. Regardless it was multi-hex trap, so Tram probably realizes that is not selective.
2) GK hasn't been spamming the traps. He should learn soon that not even all of GK's cities have them when Jillian razes a city. He doesn't know how many they have, but he should realize that powerful magic doesn't grow on trees.
3) They don't know how survivable it is. In fact if he learns that Parson survived he'll believe that units in fortified locations CAN survive the trap; then the threat is worthless
4) Even if a trap is in position using it will probably croak Wanda and hopefully cause the rebellion of the decrypted.

So as far as Tram is aware, GK may have a super-weapon that they may have brought, and may be able to use. More importantly they can not let Wanda go. Jetstone needed everything to stop GK at the bridge, but that left their capital (and presumably every other city) unable to defend against dwagon attack. They're bleeding units. They need new cities NOW. And as long as the dwagons are around they can't send out their army to take them. If the dwagons get away they attack Jetstone cities, and keep the Jetstone forces pinned in the capital. If Wanda gets away they lose. Even if Tram thinks they'll still probably lose they have to try.


I just realized something: If Jetstone is having to raze a city, they don't have the shmuckers to support their troops. But won't that further weaken their income? If they don't take more cities and soon they will really have to start cutting back. Thats really painful. They need new cities, or they're gonna lose. The Jetstone forces need to get out of Jetstone and take cities. If Stanley has another fleet of dwagons the Jetstone forces will still be needed to defend the capital.

[Altima]

@Tremmenis espionage tactics: When Parson was musing about possible tactics to use against the RCC I, he did briefly consider this option (then disregarded it, since it'd take time he didn't have). So he is at least aware of this possible option.

I just realized something: If Jetstone is having to raze a city, they don't have the shmuckers to support their troops. But won't that further weaken their income? If they don't take more cities and soon they will really have to start cutting back. Thats really painful. They need new cities, or they're gonna lose. The Jetstone forces need to get out of Jetstone and take cities. If Stanley has another fleet of dwagons the Jetstone forces will still be needed to defend the capital.

There is a diminishing return system, so it may be more profitable in the short term to terminate one of the outer cities for a quick infusion of smuckers to support their forces and, perhaps, rebuild any damages their capital sustains. Then they can proceed to take back any captured cities around them which will provide more income than the original city.

Also, keep in mind, that if they don't have any forces, they're screwed, no matter how many cities they may have.

[Lord Kasavin]

I just realized something: If Jetstone is having to raze a city, they don't have the shmuckers to support their troops. But won't that further weaken their income? If they don't take more cities and soon they will really have to start cutting back. Thats really painful. They need new cities, or they're gonna lose. The Jetstone forces need to get out of Jetstone and take cities. If Stanley has another fleet of dwagons the Jetstone forces will still be needed to defend the capital.

I guess it depends on the city, and how much razing a city adds to the treasury versus its per turn income. If its 100:1, then razing cities in preperation for war would be a standard tactic for just out everybody. I'd wager its more like 20:1, with a cost similar (but greater) to the raze amount to rebuild a city. To raze a low level city would give the side a nice income spike to keep the army moving for a small loss in per turn income. Ideally, a side would "bank" money so as to never come to that, but Jetstone is not operating under ideal circumstances. They probably spent most of their treasury on the first RCC, and then had to spend rapidly to keep Haggar at bay.

Also, keep in mind that managed cities produce extra schmuckers and reduce the upkeep of all units who spend the entire turn within the city. With the enormous concentration of Warlords (40+, I think) stationed outside spacerock, I have a feeling most cities aren't being managed, and obviously all the units (including what must be most of Jetstone's heavy hitters) outside Spacerock are not getting a "managed" discount.

[oslecamo2]

I guess it depends on the city, and how much razing a city adds to the treasury versus its per turn income. If its 100:1, then razing cities in preperation for war would be a standard tactic for just out everybody. I'd wager its more like 20:1, with a cost similar (but greater) to the raze amount to rebuild a city. To raze a low level city would give the side a nice income spike to keep the army moving for a small loss in per turn income. Ideally, a side would "bank" money so as to never come to that, but Jetstone is not operating under ideal circumstances.

Erfworld reminds me a lot of Masters of Magic. There you can sell city buildings untill your city is empty. Actualy you gain money on the long run because you no longer need to pay that building's upkeep! Except if it was a money boosting building.

Problem is, cities are your "production" factories as well. The gold income is an extra, the real value of a city is on it's ability to produce units. Each city lost means less units popped on the long run and you can easily find yourself left behind in terms of army, because buying units with gold is less effecient than popping them with the production ability of a city.

They probably spent most of their treasury on the first RCC, and then had to spend rapidly to keep Haggar at bay.

I doubt they spent money at all when deciding to attack GK, because their alliance gave them overwhelming numbers, and even Ansom admits their intelegence network for that battle sucked because they expected to just steamroll Stanley.

On the other hand, once Ansom was decrypted, they needed to promote a new heir (wich is always described as quite expensive), and as Wanda closed in they burned every gem geting and promoting as much troops as possible. Money isn't good if you're dead after all. This was a panic situation, where spacerock had to literally send forward everything they could or die trying.

Also, keep in mind that managed cities produce extra schmuckers and reduce the upkeep of all units who spend the entire turn within the city. With the enormous concentration of Warlords (40+, I think) stationed outside spacerock, I have a feeling most cities aren't being managed, and obviously all the units (including what must be most of Jetstone's heavy hitters) outside Spacerock are not getting a "managed" discount.

Very true. Plus units that aren't fighting are units that are just eating your upkeep.

[build6]

The only side making beaucoup schmuckers is Charlescomm.

Except that according to Charlie himself, "Look, Your Highness...no Royal side west or south of me will even take my calls, let alone hire me."

So I think it's safe to say Charlie has been making 'beaup' instead of 'beaucoup'.

... could Charlie be lying? I mean, he's mercenary, sneaky etc., but does he outright lie?

then again I guess it's, story-wise, not likely that Charlie's getting paid by someone else - would be really jarring to have someone new "suddenly appear" in the story as Charlie's paymaster

[Sygerrik]

Gotta disagree. There's a lot of Tramennis fanboyism on these forums, which is ok because he's a cool character, but he's a piss-poor general. He may be a smart guys, but Sizemore and Wanda are both pretty smart and neither is a particularly adept field commander.

Tramennis doesn't scout. He seems to care more about appearance than about efficiency. He noted that the Dwagons parked above Spacerock could zing him but, despite the potentially devastating loss that would be to Jetstone, refused to take even rudimentary safety precautions. He does not have backup plans, does not seem willing to utilize effective combined arms tactics (note: blobbing up all of your units and charging an enemy position is not what combined arms means). He's a bit more of a cynic than his brothers but he's still not particularly flexible, and for all his vaunted skill at diplomacy he still hasn't convinced anyone else to do anything they weren't already going to do (couldn't get Haggar to play nice until Charlie did his job for him, couldn't get Jillian to stick around, couldn't get Sammy to plan strategy with him before going in).

I see why his father doesn't like him much. He's cute and snide and quotable and not nearly as competent as either of his brothers.

Y'see, that's exactly why I said Parson would win any armed conflicts between himself and Tramennis, but could still possibly lose the war - at least, if Tramennis did what he was good at.

Remember, Tramennis is a diplomacy and counter-intelligence specialist. Thus, he's good at negotiation and espionage (he'd have to be, in order to be good at counter-intelligence stuff - knowing how an enemy's spies act is key to rendering them useless to that enemy and/or convincing them to work for you, after all).

So I could see Tramennis using soldiers to keep Parson's attention focused on the military aspect of things while he (Tramennis) slipped spies, saboteurs, and other such units into Parson's cities in an attempt to foment unrest and incite rebellions - sort of the way you could in Civilization.

After all . . . if units have a Loyalty stat, why shouldn't the cities where they're made? And if they do - and you can influence City Loyalty - well, you could get a city to switch sides.

(Don't mind me, I'm just theorizing here.)

I don't get where this "diplomacy/counter-intel" thing is coming from. We've never seen him do any of that. We've seen him try diplomacy on multiple occasions, and he's failed. It's an informed ability that he never seems to use. It's possible he's the diplomatic specialist simply because his brothers were both so bad at it that he seemed better in comparison, but he's nowhere near the diplomat Parson is (read Book 1: Parson is very, very good at reading people and very clever).

Plus, Parson is not an idiot. One of the reasons he's the Perfect Warlord is that he sees the big picture. He sees the whole war, not just the battle-- that's why he was able to win at GK (which was itself multiple battles), by making strategic sacrifices to put him in a stronger position. Any effort at sabotage would have an uphill battle against him, and at the same time he'd be undermining Jetstone's efforts with spies and saboteurs of his own.

Tramennis is clever, but he's not a very good diplomat and he's not a very good commander. And we've never had any indication that he actually knows what counter-intelligence is-- not that counter-intelligence would be a particularly valuable specialization in a world with Lookamancers and Thinkamancers.

[Shnezz]

True. But I suspect we don't know the full story of Stanley's rise to power at Gobwin Knob.

I would not be surprised to discover that Stanley had help - and I don't mean the gobwins and hobgobwins that were his side's natural allies.

I suspect he would have needed significant leverage to get them to attack Saline IV, leverage which Stanley alone might not have been able to provide. And if that's the case . . . who provided the leverage necessary for Stanley to carry out his plans?

There's only one side that we know of for sure that can influence turning natural allies away from their sides (Mountain Giant defection to Jillian). The same guy who can somehow modify the odds to reduce the chances of certain natural allies from popping in areas they would normally pop.

That would be Charlie.

If we further find out that Slately was urged to fight Stanley by Charlie...

Then it would indeed appear that Charlie has been coordinating this whole war effort to increase his personal coffers from the very beginning.

It is likely. Charlie's Rule #3: We are in the business of solving problems for our clients. Corollary: Creating problems for our clients creates business.

Sounds like Charlie, yep.

[HandofShadows]

Tramennis is clever, but he's not a very good diplomat and he's not a very good commander. And we've never had any indication that he actually knows what counter-intelligence is-- not that counter-intelligence would be a particularly valuable specialization in a world with Lookamancers and Thinkamancers.

Given the situation on Erfworld I think that the whole concept of counter-intel is best rudimentary if they even have the concept. When Parson gets around to it, it's going to be another tool he can use and probably use with devistating effect.