Book 2 – Text Updates 027

[Chameon]

Wanda's pretty slick if she managed to get all that trickery done right. Regardless, I find it amusing that dragon after dragon joined Stanley on the way, low odds, high odds that it was some interference from somebody as has been said many times.

Oh, and on a completely, 100% related note. I approve of this dragon sammich.

[Aquillion]

Way back when Parson was questioning Wanda about military strategy, he wrote that he got the sense that she knew more about it than she let on, but was offended by the implication that she did.

This might explain why; Stanley seems a bit less certain about her loyalty than he claims (or he wouldn't have gone out of his way to emphasize it). And her cover story about inviting him in with too few dwagons is that she knew nothing about military strategy, so revealing that she's actually pretty good at it could make Stanley realize she'd tried to set him up.

[DoctorJest]

She turned when Stanley started attacking and then started moving between zones?

Risky, but it worked.

Also, the Tool doesn't know about Jillian.

O.O

He knows she's queen of Faq now, I don't think he made the connection that she was the heir tho.

[Pointyleaf]

I don't think feral dragons "accumulate". If it's anything like most RPGs or strategy games, there's mostly a fixed random chance that one will be flying around a hex in a given turn: a fixed chance for a random encounter. They may despawn at the end of the turn, even. While you can probably "deplete" them (ie, minimum of x turns before a new one can pop in a hex), I don't think they accumulate, or Stanley would have caught on and been scouting further from GK to tame.

[joosy]

I don't think feral dragons "accumulate". If it's anything like most RPGs or strategy games, there's mostly a fixed random chance that one will be flying around a hex in a given turn: a fixed chance for a random encounter. They may despawn at the end of the turn, even. While you can probably "deplete" them (ie, minimum of x turns before a new one can pop in a hex), I don't think they accumulate, or Stanley would have caught on and been scouting further from GK to tame.

I believe each hex has a chance to spawn random creatures depending on the terrain type. If those creatures can forage for their own upkeep then they can survive. If they cannot, then they depop next turn. E.g. Dwagons pop randomly in certain hexes and, if they can maintain their own upkeep by finding food, then they can survive until next turn.

[leshabirukov]

I don't think feral dragons "accumulate". If it's anything like most RPGs or strategy games, there's mostly a fixed random chance that one will be flying around a hex in a given turn: a fixed chance for a random encounter. They may despawn at the end of the turn, even. While you can probably "deplete" them (ie, minimum of x turns before a new one can pop in a hex), I don't think they accumulate, or Stanley would have caught on and been scouting further from GK to tame.

I believe each hex has a chance to spawn random creatures depending on the terrain type. If those creatures can forage for their own upkeep then they can survive. If they cannot, then they depop next turn. E.g. Dwagons pop randomly in certain hexes and, if they can maintain their own upkeep by finding food, then they can survive until next turn.

Reasonable scheme, but...
In the http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png Parson calculate expected number of dwagons based only on the pop rate, he didn't ask, when Stanley tamed dwagons last time. Looks like formula was "six or seven hundred mountain hexes" * 1/200 (pop rate) = ~3 dwagons. So, dwagons are not accumulate.

[Oberon]

We only know of three--a Croakamancer, Foolamancer, and a Predictamancer.

Do we know that the Predictamancer was a FAQ unit? I don't recall seeing it stated. She could have been a MK hire.

I don't think there's anything really unusual about [the number of dwagons Stanley found en route to FAQ] ... I'd imagine that a dwagons have a low spawn rate, and the rate gets smaller the more dwagons that are in the hex... 3 may be a possible cap; so you'll never find more than 3 feral dwagons in one hex and the chance that you will get the 3rd spawn is quite rare... As such, If Banhammer never bother to croak the dwagons in the mountains around Faq, then in theory the dwagons would just keep spawning until the hit the spawn cap for the hex... And thus you would have multiple hexes filled with feral dwagons.

Agreed. In fact, maintaining your bubble kingdom becomes a bit easier if you don't clear the surrounding hexes of fierce feral units.

in theory, if Stanely decided to sit back and do nothing for 100 turns or so, the minty mountains near gobwinknob might be impressively filled with dwagons aswell

Where's the advantage in this, rather than making taming runs each turn to tame up those which have spawned? If the chance to spawn a second or a third decreases exponentially with the presence of the first or second unit, taming each turn makes more sense in total number of dwagons tamed, as well.

Do we have, in fact, ANY instance of a unit defecting of their own willpower? Seems to me we only know of turnamancy and capturing.

None successful, but Wanda asking Jillian, Jillian asking Jack, Jillian asking Wanda, and Jillian asking Wanda again make it obvious that a unit can turn from something as simple as being asked to do so.

So here's the conspiracy theory this screams at me. Wanda didn't turn. She wasn't captured. She broke alliance. Mid-turn.

She turned.

boom. She turned.

Why try to rewrite the story? Stanley may be an idiot about a great many things, but the simple mechanics of Erfworld isn't one of them.

Consider that every other unit attuned to an arkentool is a side leader.

Consider that Wanda is a caster. Consider also that Stanley was attuned long before he was either Heir or Overlord. The conclusion is that unit type is not significant, nor indicative of anything regarding rank.

We haven't seen the titans introduced as characters in the story.

Au contraire. The Titans created Erfworld. We are shown this. The Titans left behind a gem which altered the course of a battle. We are shown this also. When events such as these are known to the the inhabitants of Erfworld, it's not at all surprising that there is only a single religion with a 100% belief rate. The Titans are very much characters in this tale. Perhaps not ones which are present in any given 100 strips, but they are present none the less.

Is anyone else disappointed that the artwork wasn't a picture of the magnificent sandwich that Zhopa just made?

Yes, that was my thought exactly.

However, I fully expect and hope that this will turn out to not be the case. It would be, imo, ridiculous to expect Charlie to not just be involved, but the driving force in everything happening in Erfworld. What about everyone else?

"Anything mysterious => Charlie did it" <=> fail.

I agree. However, the natural corollary is:
"Charlie did it => Anything mysterious" <=> fail story.

So far, most (all?) "mysterious" events we've seen which have been fully explained have been attached to Charlie.

[HailGreen28]

Stanley in this update:

"Boom. She turned. I'm wasting Faq guys down below, and she's uncroaking 'em and sending 'em into the tower to fight their own guys."

Epic foreshadowing? Or a tease as the authors show us a different really clever way to win?

[Lamech]

Wait Stanley kept this secret from his ruler? He was planning on using FAQ as his bolt hole when he was still chief warlord? Hmm... this certainly lends crediblity to the theory that Stanley was behind his rulers assassination.

[nothrien]

Wait Stanley kept this secret from his ruler? He was planning on using FAQ as his bolt hole when he was still chief warlord? Hmm... this certainly lends crediblity to the theory that Stanley was behind his rulers assassination.

Yes and no. Yes, Stanley didn't tell Saline IV the purpose of his little mission. But he didn't hide the existence of FAQ afterwards, because the gobwins broke alliance and killed Saline IV before Stanley came back.

I find it very unlikely that Stanley was behind the assassination. I think it requires a degree of subtlety that I don't think he is capable of.

[raphfrk]

Reasonable scheme, but...
In the http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png Parson calculate expected number of dwagons based only on the pop rate, he didn't ask, when Stanley tamed dwagons last time. Looks like formula was "six or seven hundred mountain hexes" * 1/200 (pop rate) = ~3 dwagons. So, dwagons are not accumulate.

It depends on how many hexes are required to support a dwagon. If there was only enough food in the 500 hexes to support 1 dwagon, then all that really matters is pop rate.

Dwagons which don't pop near a food supply will de-pop within 1 turn. Also, even if there is enough food to support more dwagons, a newly popped dwagon won't know which hexes to check.

I think that with optimal scouting and using dwagon relays, Stanley's taming missions could be made even more efficient. The only limit would be upkeep costs.

Dwagon losses in battle should be replaceable within 1-2 turns. This is especially true, as his territory expands.

If he loses 30 dwagons, he should be able to replace them, but, it would mean a very long day. Stanley may not like the concept of staying awake for 50+ hours .

The main issue would be obtaining units with the ability to see through veils, so that Stanley is not put at risk. Most of his scouts don't matter, as they only tell where to go. The ones who scan his path would need to be totally trustworthy.

[BCCroaker]

I don’t think the great number of dwagons Stanley was able to tame on the way to FAQ was luck or a statistical fluke – someone wanted that to happen. I agree there is a lot of circumstantial evidence against Charlie as the main suspect, not least because Parson thinks he’s the reason for the lack of gobwins at GK. However, this means we have seen all the main protagonists (though not all the interesting characters) and I don’t want that to be the case.
But rather than a Titan etc being responsible for it all, consider the possibility of a hidden mastermind with great, though still limited powers. In this GAMELIKE world the Arkentools could be considered the equivalent of cheat codes; alright, somebody might have an unknown one. But perhaps an Erfworld character has come across a gamelike bug or possibly a hack (from an Antititan?) that means he or she can manipulate Erf reality at deeper level than the Tools, though they can’t control the whole world.

[DevilDan]

I don't think Wanda's actions during the battle of Faq are particularly complicated. She saw the force of dwagons under Stanley and changed her plans once she saw that "fate" decreed Stanley's victory. She was moving either in her base during her turn. Then Stanley "captured" her.

[Swodaems]

The Stanley doth protest too much.

I don't think Stanley truely believes in his heart of hearts what he is saying about Wanda being trustworthy. His reassurances to Zhopa on the matter are really reassurances to himself. I would love to hear the contents of that thinkagram she sent. I bet a good look at it would show exactly how much she was scamming him. Also he said she turned when he started wailing on the city, but that the casters and defenses took out the 10 dwagons on APPROACH. She could very well have been among those casters swatting down dwagons. (BTW, Stanley's brain grasping to provide reasons to trust Wanda sounds alot like the description of Erfworld's suggestion spell. Could he have been suggested to trust her?)

Also, it is rather suprising that Saline didn't know about the plan to level FAQ. However I would deem it near impossible for him not to have found out about it later. He would have found himself with quite a few new dwagons, two new casters and quite a bit of gold from the ordeal. Stanley, Jack's, and Wanda's purses likely could not have held the the spoils of the sacking of three cities. (Purses are 1000 schmucks per level for commanders and cities drop quite a bit of gold when razed. Even using the Decrypted warlords' purses would have them dumpping quite a bit of gold into GK's Treasury when they decayed.) Saline would have found himself with a very powerful warlord who's dwagons composed a large amount of his fighting force and was willing to hide things from his king. In other words, a powerful unit of questionable loyalty he could not disband. If Stanley wasn't heir already, then he may have been made heir after the fall of FAQ to keep him from deciding to split of into a new side using FAQ's capital.

[Atomic]

I also have thought about this. Is it possible, that arkentools have their own will? Let's recall something:

I fully support this. Plus its a character on the cast page http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erfcast.html And it has taste in friends.

Now, while I disagree with the idea of Charlie being the Arkendish, I like the idea of each Arkentool having a "mind of its own".

What if...wait. Hold on. I need to grab my tin foil hat.

First thing's first: The idea that each Arkentool has it's own mind/consciousness would feed into the idea of Fate, and the Titans, still having a factor in the world at large. Assuming the Arkenhammer functions in the Spookism Class (and on the Weirdomancy Axis), what's to say the Arkenhammer couldn't have seen the need for more Dwagons at the Battle for FAQ, and used Turnamancy to (drastically) speed up the popping of Dwagons in hexes Stanley would pass through?

Same for Charlie: The Arkendish gives him unmatched Thinkamancy, but what about Lookamancy? Perhaps it's not the immense amount of Thinkagrams he's getting that alerts him to skirmishes going on all over Erfworld, but the fact he can *see* where the battles are going to be, so he just places a suitable amount of Archons in the general vicinity.

Of course, we can't leave Wanda out... The Arkenpliers are master of Croakamancy, which is pretty darn obvious, but they're also the only thing (short of Parson) to have ever done something which was impossible before the attunement (assuming that Dwagons were poppable before Stanley attuned to the Arkenhammer, but that's on the same debate of the Arkendish/Archons, so we'll leave that out). So, I'm just gonna take some Tin-Foil liberties here and say that the Arkenpliers have access to (limited) Retconjuration.

Some might argue that in my theory each Arkentool only has access to TWO of the three Axis', which is true, but I still think it fits; and since the three Arkentools as a whole would have two Tools in the Erf axis, two in the Fate axis and two in the Numbers axis, they'd be covering each others weaknesses.

Anyway, that's my theory. Who knows, perhaps the Arkentools are manifestations of each individual Titan; exhibiting the traits which each Titan possessed. lol

[Vreejack]

Why is no one mentioning the possibility that the Titans are actually doing this? ...

I thought that that was pretty much implied in Parson's "pep talk" to the casters. Why? My favorite theory is that the Titans want conflict. Destructive unnecessary conflict. Destructive unnecessary highly entertaining conflict.

Exactly. We are the titans.

[Vreejack]

Count me in on the people suspecting Charlie is somehow behind everything.

We have two instances of natural allies turning, something Maggie has described as "very unusual", and we know for a fact that Charlie was responsible for one of them.

This I suspect is true, though Wanda was certainly driving it. She wanted Stanley in charge as her puppet. Saline prolly didn't like her.

We have two instances where the spawn rates of "wild" units have been unbelievably off, and one of those instances is very probably due to Charlie.

But certainly not the other one. Stanley had never traveled to Faq before, so in his absence a lot of dwagons had built up in the high pass. A lack of them would require explanation.

We also have an unusual situation where Wanda, a croakamancer, sent a thinkagram to Stanley. Yes, she could have had a scroll or one of Faq's casters could have been a thinkamancer (though I find it unlikely that she would have trusted someone else to being part of that communication), but we also know that Charlie is the telcom giant of Erfworld and that he is regularly used as a go-between in communications between third parties. So he could have known about Stanley's planned attack.

Take off the tin foil hat. Wanda called from the Magic Kingdom. Had she called from Faq direct you would have an argument, but she went to the MK to by a spell. She would have used rands, of course, so the bean counters could not find out. She had to make sure that no one from her side knew what she was doing. Alas, the best laid plans of mice and croakamancers oft gang aglae.

And lastly, we know Charlie is not at all eager for Gobwin Knob to know that he is working against them.

He doesn't want PARSON to know.

Something about all this stinks. I think that Charlie had a huge, secret hand in creating Gobwin Knob, as we know it today, under the command of Stanley and not Saline I.V.. Why he did this, I'm not entirely sure, but I believe that, like Frankenstein's monster, it's something that got ultimately got away from him and he's now racing to contain them.

I'll going along with him perhaps having something to do with Saline's death, but only because it helps explain why Stanley has a particular hatred for him. That's actually a pretty weak argument, made from my sense of the dramatic.

[gazes_also]

Really enjoyed this update an several levels... including the Z name running gag.

Is Stanley, how can I put it, mellowing? He's trying to learn minions names, he's actually quite complementary to Ziggy, maybe Maggie is messing with his mind regularly to make him easier to live with? He clearly doesn't get subtlety or deception, so it seems safe to say he wasn't responsible for Saline IV's death.

Some pieces have fallen into place about who really was responsible for the destruction of Faq, and Charlie is still a suspect, but it seems to me there are others who had the motive and the means to do in Banhammer. Who else, apart from Charlie might feel threatened by him?

Maybe it was the ruling council of The Magic Kingdom that did it.

Banhammer is described as an philosopher king, and from Jillian, Wanda and Jack's recollections he seemed to have a court full of casters and thinkers, not just the one's we know about. Suppose he was starting to ask questions about the order of things on Erfworld, and the real influence of The Magic Kingdom. Maybe they didn't like that a large number of casters were choosing to live in Faq, outside of TMK rules. There is no clear evidence that Charlie knew of the existence of Faq, but TMK did.
Wanda sent the message to Stanley from TMK by scroll.
Wanda was told by a predictamancer that she would attune, making her an easily manipulatable agent.
She thinks she's drawing Stanley into a trap, rather than betraying her overlord.
A bit of luckamancy tilts the odds in Stanley's favour, she recognises this and sees her best chance of getting a tool is to turn to Stanley.
TMK now have an agent right next to the non-caster hammer-wielder
Faq falls and the casters are forced to return to TMK.

TMK manipulation is seen all over the place:
- the summoning scroll that brought Parson and wasn't quite what Stanley and Wanda expected.
- Maggie uses the Oofel dust on Stanley to get him to make Parson CWL again - why? because Janice told Seemore he had to be.

It has been assumed that some things happen because Charlie paid a caster to do it or it's predicted 'fate'
What if there is an eminence gris - a hidden inner circle of TMK casters controlling things for their own ends?
Somewhere in TMK is a chamber, in which a circle of mysterious hooded figures decide the fates of entire kingdoms on Erfworld.

Idle musings - unpick as you please.

[Lamech]

Wait Stanley kept this secret from his ruler? He was planning on using FAQ as his bolt hole when he was still chief warlord? Hmm... this certainly lends crediblity to the theory that Stanley was behind his rulers assassination.

Yes and no. Yes, Stanley didn't tell Saline IV the purpose of his little mission. But he didn't hide the existence of FAQ afterwards, because the gobwins broke alliance and killed Saline IV before Stanley came back.

I find it very unlikely that Stanley was behind the assassination. I think it requires a degree of subtlety that I don't think he is capable of.

I don't see any mention of bring any casters along. I truly doubt this was the mission that Saline croaked on. He brought a handful of dwagons; definitly not requiring casters.

[ftl]

We haven't seen the titans introduced as characters in the story.

Au contraire. The Titans created Erfworld. We are shown this. The Titans left behind a gem which altered the course of a battle. We are shown this also. When events such as these are known to the the inhabitants of Erfworld, it's not at all surprising that there is only a single religion with a 100% belief rate. The Titans are very much characters in this tale. Perhaps not ones which are present in any given 100 strips, but they are present none the less.

I didn't mean to imply that the titans don't exist.

I DO mean to say that we've never seen them do anything CURRENT. We see EACH side claiming they have the titans on their side, and attributing their victories or defeats to them - but we never see any reason to believe those attributions are correct or incorrect. The Titans have no personalities and no motives that we know of, no narrative.

They're figures of the past, part of the background - NOT characters in the present tale.

The ONLY action that we've seen that can be DIRECTLY tied to the titans is "creating Erfworld." Since then, there've been victories and defeats and attunements - and every single time ANYTHING happens it's attributed to fate/Titans, making it a completely worthless explanation. Everything that happens seems to be, by definition, the will of the titans! Because if it wasn't, it wouldn't happen!

So the question isn't "did the Titans/Fate want this to happen". Because the answer is obviously yes. The question is whether one of those giant Elvis figures actually did whatever it was to make dwagons appear, or whether there was some other agency (Charlie?) involved. And, as of yet, we have NEVER seen those Elvises do anything directly, except create Erf ages ago.