Book 2 – Text Updates 027

[the_tick_rules]

I loved all the famous z named who made a cameo in this.

[Pointyleaf]

So the question isn't "did the Titans/Fate want this to happen". Because the answer is obviously yes. The question is whether one of those giant Elvis figures actually did whatever it was to make dwagons appear, or whether there was some other agency (Charlie?) involved. And, as of yet, we have NEVER seen those Elvises do anything directly, except create Erf ages ago.

So who made all of Parson's plans go wrong in Book 1? (The donut of doom, dancefight, etc.)

[build6]

So who made all of Parson's plans go wrong in Book 1? (The donut of doom, dancefight, etc.)

I'm not going to say I'm agreeing with the "Titans did it" line of reasoning, but this counter doesn't really work because if Parson hadn't lost dancefight etc., then there'd have been no reason to nuke the Volcano, which could be regarded as the end goal to demonstrate the "world breaking" Parson was brought here to initiate

[ftl]

So the question isn't "did the Titans/Fate want this to happen". Because the answer is obviously yes. The question is whether one of those giant Elvis figures actually did whatever it was to make dwagons appear, or whether there was some other agency (Charlie?) involved. And, as of yet, we have NEVER seen those Elvises do anything directly, except create Erf ages ago.

So who made all of Parson's plans go wrong in Book 1? (The donut of doom, dancefight, etc.)

Ansom, Jillian, Charlie, Vinnie, etc.

For each of those, there was a non-Titans explanation - and that's what's missing here. (If you want to call it the Titans will, go ahead - that can apply as well in this case as in all the other cases - but, in all OTHER cases, the Titan's will then happens via somebody in Erfworld, not directly.)

[DoctorJest]

Exactly. We are the titans.

I look nothing like Elvis.

[DoctorJest]

It's supposed, that Charlie have Arkendish. Maybe he is the Arkendish?

Ah geeze not this again.

I thought we finally put that to rest.

[yuffiek]

I loved all the famous z named who made a cameo in this.

Stanley's Aid to Z

[leshabirukov]

I also have thought about this. Is it possible, that arkentools have their own will? Let's recall something:

I fully support this. Plus its a character on the cast page http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erfcast.html And it has taste in friends.

And not so bad taste! It is certainly doesn't wont to be posessed by Wanda.

It depends on how many hexes are required to support a dwagon. If there was only enough food in the 500 hexes to support 1 dwagon, then all that really matters is pop rate.
...
I think that with optimal scouting and using dwagon relays, Stanley's taming missions could be made ...

Beasts can move between hexes? I don't think they have their turn.
Advanced taming? It may be very strong. Even without treasure, stalking in mountains, using Sizemoore+Maggie as gem miners... With lookamancer it would be unbeatable.

Now, while I disagree with the idea of Charlie being the Arkendish, I like the idea of each Arkentool having a "mind of its own".

What if...wait. Hold on. I need to grab my tin foil hat.
...
Some might argue that in my theory each Arkentool only has access to TWO of the three Axis', which is true, but I still think it fits; and since the three Arkentools as a whole would have two Tools in the Erf axis, two in the Fate axis and two in the Numbers axis, they'd be covering each others weaknesses.

Anyway, that's my theory. Who knows, perhaps the Arkentools are manifestations of each individual Titan; exhibiting the traits which each Titan possessed. lol

But we know, there exists at least one more Arkentool. How this fits in your theory? I think you need some more dark matter. : )

I loved all the famous z named who made a cameo in this.

Stanley's Aid to Z

Wow. Are you had known it all, or have used google?

[yuffiek]

Wow. Are you had known it all, or have used google?

I had to look up Zynga (the dog) and Zildjian, but the others were fairly easy for me (Yes, even Zeno..)

[raphfrk]

It depends on how many hexes are required to support a dwagon. If there was only enough food in the 500 hexes to support 1 dwagon, then all that really matters is pop rate.
...
I think that with optimal scouting and using dwagon relays, Stanley's taming missions could be made ...

Beasts can move between hexes? I don't think they have their turn.

Well, that would be required to have a dwagon hunt for food. Otherwise, it would have to hunt in just the hex it was popped in. That would mean that either the area would support no dwagons, or one in every hex.

Another option would be that it stays in one hex, but can absorb food from nearby hexes. It doesn't actually have to hunt, but the game calculates the effect of its hunting by killing nearby animals. This is similar to the way farming works. It isn't required to move the animals to the city for killing. They just de-pop and the food appears in the city.

Advanced taming? It may be very strong. Even without treasure, stalking in mountains, using Sizemoore+Maggie as gem miners... With lookamancer it would be unbeatable.

Actually, that is a good point about lookamancy. They should have used Misty to locate any dwagon pops. However, they didn't have archons, so they couldn't guarantee that there weren't any veiled units. Also, it is possible that lookamancy uses juice for scanning each hex. Misty may not have had the juice to scan 500-600 hexes every turn.

Scanning the rules for exploits seems to be Parson's speciality, so maybe they just didn't think of it.

I wonder if a dirtamancer/lookamancer linkup could scan for gems directly and/or do long range mining. Sizemore couldn't even seem the gems directly under his feet. However, even without a lookamancer, the link-up boosted his perception of the mountain.

[Welf von Ehrwald]

Advanced taming? It may be very strong. Even without treasure, stalking in mountains, using Sizemoore+Maggie as gem miners... With lookamancer it would be unbeatable.

Actually, that is a good point about lookamancy. They should have used Misty to locate any dwagon pops. However, they didn't have archons, so they couldn't guarantee that there weren't any veiled units. Also, it is possible that lookamancy uses juice for scanning each hex. Misty may not have had the juice to scan 500-600 hexes every turn.

Scanning the rules for exploits seems to be Parson's speciality, so maybe they just didn't think of it.

I wonder if a dirtamancer/lookamancer linkup could scan for gems directly and/or do long range mining. Sizemore couldn't even seem the gems directly under his feet. However, even without a lookamancer, the link-up boosted his perception of the mountain.

I guess that's what findamancy is for. A findamancer can locate gems, Sizemore could create a tunnel to get there. A findamancer also could locate dwagons.

I still think it was Stanley's greatest mistake to underuse the table. The table had a lookamancer and a foolamancer, thus he could see trough veils. Even if the table didn't had enough juice to see trough 500+ hexes (which I doubt), he could have used scouts. And then use the table to determine a save way. Think about it, searching 1.000 hexes a day would have brought 5 dwagons a day. That's 25 dwagons in 5 turns. Pop a warlord, and pay for 1 new habgobwin knight a day, and you have deadly force that can wreak havoc on an enemy. And the best thing, you don't even have to care if they win or not. Or about tactics and strategy. Even if they croak, they will weaken the enemy enough for the next wave, or the wave after that. Heck, you want them to croak so they don't drain to much from the treasure. War of attrition at its best.

[gazes_also]

So the question isn't "did the Titans/Fate want this to happen". Because the answer is obviously yes. The question is whether one of those giant Elvis figures actually did whatever it was to make dwagons appear, or whether there was some other agency (Charlie?) involved. And, as of yet, we have NEVER seen those Elvises do anything directly, except create Erf ages ago.

There's no such thing as "Fate", there's no such thing as the "Will of the Titans" there are just random events, and manipulation and spin by The Magic Kingdom.

[MonteCristo]

So the question isn't "did the Titans/Fate want this to happen". Because the answer is obviously yes. The question is whether one of those giant Elvis figures actually did whatever it was to make dwagons appear, or whether there was some other agency (Charlie?) involved. And, as of yet, we have NEVER seen those Elvises do anything directly, except create Erf ages ago.

So who made all of Parson's plans go wrong in Book 1? (The donut of doom, dancefight, etc.)

Ansom, Jillian, Charlie, Vinnie, etc.

For each of those, there was a non-Titans explanation - and that's what's missing here.

No it's not... i gave a non-titan answer...
It may simply be the case that Faq never cleared out the dwagons that naturally pop near them, which allowed the dwagons to rise to large numbers, which made them ripe for the picking for Stanely... Not clearing out those dwagons actually fits with Faq's isolationist state. As others have mentioned, feral dwagons act almost as natural guards in that scouts from others sides would try to steer clear of those hexs, and it creates the illusion that there isn't a side near there... furtharmore Faq takes a risk of being spotted by scouts if they were to go out to hunt the dwagons...


frankly i think supporting evidence for this is the fact that if the titans could and would cause such large spawnings of dwagons, or similar miracles, then we simply have to ask why they have not done so in the comics(as you seem to acknowledge)... I mean, EVERYTHING that we have seen in the comics was the work of erfworlders working to make their "fate" happen. They made the choices and actions that allowed their "fates" to play out as they should. There were no miracles that helped them, no incredible acts of luck or coincidence, it was all accomplished by their own hands... Why would the titans help stanely by giving him dwagons then on not any other time? Massive dwagon popping in the minty mountains would have seriously helped them at the battle of gobwinknob

And it's odd that you would claim that the Fate/titians OBVIOUSLY wanted this to happen, when you open yourself to the possibility that an outside party, Charlie, someone who does not believe in the will of the titans and works against it, may have actually have hand in creating this fortuitous situation for Stanley... isn't the very idea that Charlie and not the titians, was the the cause of the dwagons spawning evidence that the titans had NOTHING to do with this situation and that it was chalries own lone decision? Again, no miracles, no acts of fate, just individuals making decisions

Frankly, i believe in what Charlie has said about the titanic mandate... People are just seeing what they WANT to see
For instance, right now, Wanda believes that she will not croak; the titains are watching over her and she does not need to protect herself... but when it comes down to it the only thing that will save her from croaking is Parson's more level headed thinking

I still think it was Stanley's greatest mistake to underuse the table. The table had a lookamancer and a foolamancer, thus he could see trough veils. Even if the table didn't had enough juice to see trough 500+ hexes (which I doubt), he could have used scouts. And then use the table to determine a save way. Think about it, searching 1.000 hexes a day would have brought 5 dwagons a day. That's 25 dwagons in 5 turns. Pop a warlord, and pay for 1 new habgobwin knight a day, and you have deadly force that can wreak havoc on an enemy. And the best thing, you don't even have to care if they win or not. Or about tactics and strategy. Even if they croak, they will weaken the enemy enough for the next wave, or the wave after that. Heck, you want them to croak so they don't drain to much from the treasure. War of attrition at its best.

And who says Stanley DID NOT use the table like that...
Stanely points out how one of the reasons he stopped going out to tame dwagons was because he didn't have a lookamancer to help search for them
stanely may have indeed been using the table to locate dwagons and go out to tame them... however, you could be overestimating how much stanely could search and how many dwagons he could claim in a single turn... afterall, the is a limit to how far his dwagons can fly and he did not think about the dwagon rail system that parson created
As i said before, their is NOTHING saying that Stanely NEVER went out dwagoning taming before TBfGK

Sure in the summer updates Stanely expressed fear of being ambushed and croak and thus did not risk going out to tame dwagons, but that could have been because now he no longer had his lookamancer and trimancer link to help make sure it was safe

[Oberon]

I didn't mean to imply that the titans don't exist.

I DO mean to say that we've never seen them do anything CURRENT.
[...]
The ONLY action that we've seen that can be DIRECTLY tied to the titans is "creating Erfworld."

While the Titans appear to not be the sort of deities who send their sons or otherwise burn a bush or destroy a corrupt city and turn a spouse or two into salt pillars, the discovery of the rhinestone "gem" which impacted the battle of Warchalking so dramatically was a current event. Tied to the creation of Erfworld, true, but it's clear that the Titan's mysteries are known to be discoverable in current turns. As another case in point, the fourth Arkentool.

[DevilDan]

I think that's part of the genius of Stanley's fortuitous finding of dwagons: they can be used to defend any theory we have about the fall of Faq or even about the nature of Erf and its gods. The more theories the merrier.

I don't see why beasts cannot move between hexes. They could take turn when barbarians and unaligned move.

I forget, does Erf have seasons? Maybe Stanley happened unto a mass of migrating dwagons.

[Altima]

"Why would Charlie help Stanley?"

Answer: Because Charlie wanted the Hammer. If Stanley croaked at Faq, Faq would have gotten the Arkenhammer. Faq has truly murderous defenses--if Stanley had failed, Faq would have most certainly buffed them, if not outright have gone on the offensive. Megalogwiffs are quite powerful units. Lastly, Faq has no natural allies (well, they do now--thanks to Charlie--but not then).

So here's the scenario I see. Charlie sees the Hammer, which he really wants. He sees it's in the position he wants it to be--held by a gung-ho Chief Warlord of a side with strong natural allies and no heir. He sees this as a perfect opportunity--have the allies turn, croak the king, Stanley disbands in the field, and Charlie's Archons merely pick the hammer up and whisk it away to him.

However, if Stanley failed at Faq and croaked, Faq has no natural allies. Charlie would have to attack the site himself--he couldn't risk informing other people of Faq's location. Heck, it's possible Charlie didn't even know Faq's location.

So, in the end, it was a win-win situation. Stanley keeps the Hammer while Charlie plans a neat little scoop up operation, and Charlie helps eliminate one of his competitors.

"How does Charlie affect spawn rates?"

If it is indeed Charlie, well, remember that he's smart. He also knows about linked casters. Who's to say he can't link together a findamancer and a luckamancer--or, perhaps, even a fourth thanks to his Arkendish--and mess around with the spawn rates? It's a very situational ability. How often would sides lose *all* their natural allies and not have been wiped out themselves? Sure, Charlie could decrease the number of dwagon spawns, but dwagons can also be popped from Stanley's city, too.

[leshabirukov]

Advanced taming? It may be very strong. Even without treasure, stalking in mountains, using Sizemoore+Maggie as gem miners... With lookamancer it would be unbeatable.

Actually, that is a good point about lookamancy. They should have used Misty to locate any dwagon pops. However, they didn't have archons, so they couldn't guarantee that there weren't any veiled units. Also, it is possible that lookamancy uses juice for scanning each hex. Misty may not have had the juice to scan 500-600 hexes every turn.

Scanning the rules for exploits seems to be Parson's speciality, so maybe they just didn't think of it.

I wonder if a dirtamancer/lookamancer linkup could scan for gems directly and/or do long range mining. Sizemore couldn't even seem the gems directly under his feet. However, even without a lookamancer, the link-up boosted his perception of the mountain.

I guess that's what findamancy is for. A findamancer can locate gems, Sizemore could create a tunnel to get there. A findamancer also could locate dwagons.

I suppose, enforced Sizemoore can locate and blast to surface enough gems for upkeep. I mean, the lookamancer is needed to avoid unwanted encounters. And yes, it would be useful to have lookamancer or findamancer for locating feral dwagons.

[Atomic]

But we know, there exists at least one more Arkentool. How this fits in your theory? I think you need some more dark matter. : )

Well, that's why I suspect there'd have to be at least six Arkentools... If not nine. Of course, that isn't to say Arkentools are limited to two Axis' (or perhaps they only hold a loose definition of "Axis", or maybe they encompass each different Element...) , since I'd actually be prone to support the idea of nine Arkentools, with each Arkentool having complete and total access to every Element in their class... Nine Titans of Ark, each with a distinct personality/something they added to Erfworld and nine corresponding tools. Yeah, I like that theory.

Of course, it's entirely without support and it's a rather silly idea to assume five tools have remained in a quasi-unknown state for who knows how many turns... Hundreds upon hundreds? Thousands?

Which raises the question... How old *is* Erfworld? Not like we could possibly know, but it would bring up a lot more theories on the state of affairs in their world. There could be more than four Arkentools, yet they just haven't been discovered because the world is so new... Or perhaps their world is so old that other Arkentools have drifted from one dying empire to the next, until all knowledge of them died out. Yeah, lots of questions.

[gazes_also]

But we know, there exists at least one more Arkentool. How this fits in your theory? I think you need some more dark matter. : )

Well, that's why I suspect there'd have to be at least six Arkentools... If not nine. Of course, that isn't to say Arkentools are limited to two Axis' (or perhaps they only hold a loose definition of "Axis", or maybe they encompass each different Element...) , since I'd actually be prone to support the idea of nine Arkentools, with each Arkentool having complete and total access to every Element in their class... Nine Titans of Ark, each with a distinct personality/something they added to Erfworld and nine corresponding tools. Yeah, I like that theory.

Of course, it's entirely without support and it's a rather silly idea to assume five tools have remained in a quasi-unknown state for who knows how many turns... Hundreds upon hundreds? Thousands?

Which raises the question... How old *is* Erfworld? Not like we could possibly know, but it would bring up a lot more theories on the state of affairs in their world. There could be more than four Arkentools, yet they just haven't been discovered because the world is so new... Or perhaps their world is so old that other Arkentools have drifted from one dying empire to the next, until all knowledge of them died out. Yeah, lots of questions.

I think you theory is a good one for the process of forming Erfworld, each Titan working in a different way with different tools. My question is though, were the Archentools all left behind, and are they somehow necessary to the continued existence and stability of Erfworld? That seems to be what your suggesting.

OTOH were a few lost or accidentally left behind by the Titans. Titan gets back to ?Arch? and finds "Oops I left my pliers behind, oh well, never mind."

I could see the dish being deliberately left, but the pliers and hammer seem more like things that fell out of a toolbox.
This would mean that any number of tools were used to form Erfworld, but only those lost (or discarded) remained after the Titans work was done.

Either way - I rather like it.

[Jorgath]

Which raises the question... How old *is* Erfworld? Not like we could possibly know, but it would bring up a lot more theories on the state of affairs in their world. There could be more than four Arkentools, yet they just haven't been discovered because the world is so new... Or perhaps their world is so old that other Arkentools have drifted from one dying empire to the next, until all knowledge of them died out. Yeah, lots of questions.

Went through the wiki to see if anything and we have a minimum age: 415 turns. Don was 15 turns old when he assumed the throne and has been ruling for at least 400 according to LIAB Text Update 005. So by our terms, a year and 50 days.