Book 2 – Text Updates 027

[DoctorJest]

It's been pointed out that that is a narrated portion, perhaps an illustration of the story as it is being told.

That's conjecture. We have no reason to believe that what is presented isn't true, except for the desire of some readers for it to be otherwise.

[Lamech]

My assumption is rather that if the Titans were communicating with anyone on Erfworld, Charlie would expect at least to have some awareness of it through the Archendish. He can eavesdrop on thinkagrams and connect to the mind of any being on Erfworld; the dish is a Titanic artifact so you would expect it to be particularly sensitive to Titanic broadcast energy. Even if he can't listen in to the messages he should be able to detect any Titans comms traffic if there was any.

The Silence of the Titans means for Charlie that there can be no knowing Will of the Titans.

A titanic artifact is sensitive to titanic broadcasts? What? Even then assuming the dish can hack a normal casters thinkagrams instead of just eyebooks, and assuming that the titans can't simply hide there thinkagrams; there is no reason why the titans couldn't affect the world with say... dirtamancy, or changamancy, or luckamancy. A dish from our world can only detect the signals it operates on, why is it affecting other disiplines? Even if the titans would have to use thinkamancy to interfere and the dish could pick up thinkamancy; The titans could be able to remotely control the dishes. For example in our world satilites are remotely controlled by dishes. Perhaps in erfworld dishes are remotely controlled by titans. Or maybe it was programmed to ignore "classified" broadcasts. In our world you can set the your salitile T.V. to only pick up some of the broadcasts and ignore others. They're the tools of the titans; its a silly assumption to belive that they would work at cross-purposes to the titans.

Finally even if the dish did work at cross-purposes to the titans, AND the dish could detect the titanic thinkamancy AND the titans had to use thinkamancy to affect Erfworld, the titans, being super-powerful titans probably have superpowerful magic, and super-powerful foolamancy and thinkamancy and could leave Charlie in the dark regardless. Its silly, if the titans don't want Charlie to know their "will" probably won't. Of course, none of this prevents Charlie from making up his own narrative.

[DevilDan]

It's been pointed out that that is a narrated portion, perhaps an illustration of the story as it is being told.

That's conjecture. We have no reason to believe that what is presented isn't true, except for the desire of some readers for it to be otherwise.

Quite true, it is conjecture. Now that we've seen Book 2 begin with similar narration boxes, that argument is weaker. I don't have any particular reason to doubt that Erf is the creation of some intelligent being or beings.

As to the other argument extant: We know so little about the capabilities of the arkendish that it seems silly to speculate on whether it could capture or detect "divine" emissions or emanations is coming close to debating how many Titans can shake their hips on the head of a pin.

Besides, the Titans could surely hide themselves even from the arkendish even assuming it is capable of divine wiretapping..

[gazes_also]

My assumption is rather that if the Titans were communicating with anyone on Erfworld, Charlie would expect at least to have some awareness of it through the Archendish. He can eavesdrop on thinkagrams and connect to the mind of any being on Erfworld; the dish is a Titanic artifact so you would expect it to be particularly sensitive to Titanic broadcast energy. Even if he can't listen in to the messages he should be able to detect any Titans comms traffic if there was any.

The Silence of the Titans means for Charlie that there can be no knowing Will of the Titans.

A titanic artifact is sensitive to titanic broadcasts? What? Even then assuming the dish can hack a normal casters thinkagrams instead of just eyebooks, and assuming that the titans can't simply hide there thinkagrams; there is no reason why the titans couldn't affect the world with say... dirtamancy, or changamancy, or luckamancy. A dish from our world can only detect the signals it operates on, why is it affecting other disiplines? Even if the titans would have to use thinkamancy to interfere and the dish could pick up thinkamancy; The titans could be able to remotely control the dishes. For example in our world satilites are remotely controlled by dishes. Perhaps in erfworld dishes are remotely controlled by titans. Or maybe it was programmed to ignore "classified" broadcasts. In our world you can set the your salitile T.V. to only pick up some of the broadcasts and ignore others. They're the tools of the titans; its a silly assumption to belive that they would work at cross-purposes to the titans.

Finally even if the dish did work at cross-purposes to the titans, AND the dish could detect the titanic thinkamancy AND the titans had to use thinkamancy to affect Erfworld, the titans, being super-powerful titans probably have superpowerful magic, and super-powerful foolamancy and thinkamancy and could leave Charlie in the dark regardless. Its silly, if the titans don't want Charlie to know their "will" probably won't. Of course, none of this prevents Charlie from making up his own narrative.

You rather undermine your own argument, if the Titans are remotely controlling the dish as you suggest, wouldn't Charlie has some awareness of someone else interfering with the system he is attuned to? On the analogy of satellite signals, picking up signals on a satellite dish is not the problem, it's decoding the ones you can receive, but you still know you have a signal. Either the dish is a lost object, in which case it could still work on the settings it was on when it was lost, or it's an intentionally left object. If the latter, that makes Charlie one of the Chosen Attuned ones, the other two of whom believe themselves to be favoured and guided by the Titans, but Charlie, the longest attuned, is somehow out of the loop WoTT-wise?

@Devildan
No point in speculating about things we know about. Speculating about the things we don't know about is so much more entertaining.

[Ansan Gotti]

You rather undermine your own argument, if the Titans are remotely controlling the dish as you suggest, wouldn't Charlie has some awareness of someone else interfering with the system he is attuned to? On the analogy of satellite signals, picking up signals on a satellite dish is not the problem, it's decoding the ones you can receive, but you still know you have a signal. Either the dish is a lost object, in which case it could still work on the settings it was on when it was lost, or it's an intentionally left object. If the latter, that makes Charlie one of the Chosen Attuned ones, the other two of whom believe themselves to be favoured and guided by the Titans, but Charlie, the longest attuned, is somehow out of the loop WoTT-wise?

Oh, come on. Don't you think that if the equivalent of a god created an item, couldn't that creator also choose whether or not to allow the item to eavesdrop on himself? Couldn't he have enough power to exempt himself from the abilities of the item he created?

It's rather elementary theology that if someone is powerful enough to be a god, he is also powerful enough to stay hidden and maintain mysteries, especially if he is the one to create them.

Your position that a creator would automatically be subject to his own creation does not make sense to me at all.

[ftl]

Your position that a creator would automatically be subject to his own creation does not make sense to me at all.

However, the position that, if a creator was meddling in the affairs of mortals, then Charlie (with his unmatched thinkamancy and giant intelligence network) would have an inkling of it, is far more reasonable.

Any current actions of the Titans are indistinguishable from the world going on without them, according to the most connected character we know.

[Ansan Gotti]

However, the position that, if a creator was meddling in the affairs of mortals, then Charlie (with his unmatched thinkamancy and giant intelligence network) would have an inkling of it, is far more reasonable.

Only if you accept the notion that deific entities allow themselves to be subject to the powers and perceptions of mortals. The only way that would happen is if they allow it to happen.

[Dr Pepper]

It's been pointed out that that is a narrated portion, perhaps an illustration of the story as it is being told.

That's conjecture. We have no reason to believe that what is presented isn't true, except for the desire of some readers for it to be otherwise.

And, as i've mentioned before, it shows that dwagons already existed back then. Also, it shows that dwagons can fly at an altitude that would count as outer space by erfling standards.

[DevilDan]

However, the position that, if a creator was meddling in the affairs of mortals, then Charlie (with his unmatched thinkamancy and giant intelligence network) would have an inkling of it, is far more reasonable.

Let's not lose focus. There's a difference between suspecting or deducting a Titan's hands at work, one the one side, and knowing for a fact that a Titan is actively communicating with and perhaps even acting on behalf of a side.

If the arkendish, in some way or another, shows itself as being linked in some fashion to contemporary actions of Titans, Charlie's reaction would be one of deep suspicion and a desire to use the dish as little as possible. The contact could be a double-edged sword. Unless we posit conflicts/sides among the Titans or rules--self-imposed or otherwise--that inhibit a Titan's actions, nothing as closely linked to the Titans as a Tool is could be considered trustworthy or even safe.

And, as i've mentioned before, it shows that dwagons already existed back then. Also, it shows that dwagons can fly at an altitude that would count as outer space by erfling standards.

As I don't feel like rehashing old arguments, I'll add new static instead. The Titans were playtestings/finetuning & balancing/tweaking/etc.

[splintermute]

I don't think there is such a thing as a "Will of the Titans" - they seem more like deist, "watchmaker" gods that set the universe in motion, but don't interfere thereafter. The one definitive act of the Titans described in the narration, leaving an extra gem in the Minty Mountains, looks like it was accidental - it fell off his cape. The other major act of the Titans, leaving behind the Arkentools, also seems accidental - perhaps they forgot to pack them up, or they fell out of the Arkentoolbox. Everything ascribed to the Will of the Titans since then either had an Erfly agent, or could be attributed to luck or coincidence.

[build6]

However, the position that, if a creator was meddling in the affairs of mortals, then Charlie (with his unmatched thinkamancy and giant intelligence network) would have an inkling of it, is far more reasonable.

You rather undermine your own argument, if the Titans are remotely controlling the dish as you suggest, wouldn't Charlie has some awareness of someone else interfering with the system he is attuned to?

Oh, come on. Don't you think that if the equivalent of a god created an item, couldn't that creator also choose whether or not to allow the item to eavesdrop on himself? Couldn't he have enough power to exempt himself from the abilities of the item he created?

It's rather elementary theology that if someone is powerful enough to be a god, he is also powerful enough to stay hidden and maintain mysteries, especially if he is the one to create them.

Your position that a creator would automatically be subject to his own creation does not make sense to me at all.

All the "Titans would be detectable by Titanic artifacts" arguments presuppose that the Titans have made the decision that their world is "strongly" rule-based, i.e. that they'd choose themselves to only operate within originally set parameters. If this wasn't decided, then there's really no necessity that the Titans would be "detectable", per Ansan Gotti above. We have no evidence, either way, whether such a "decision" was made by the Titans, so you guys seem to be arguing past each other.

I will say one thing though - from what we've seen of erfworld so far, it appears to be a closed universe within which everybody "knows" the rules. Individuals are popped "knowing" things, there's no "growth" phase - until Parson showed up, there wasn't really any "experimentation" [This is completely unlike our world. If we have a closed universe within which all the rules are known, then something that happens which "could not have occurred" within the rules would then clearly show an external force, and you'd know that there was a Titanic force at work. In our world, we don't know all the rules, so even if something wierd happens you can't tell (no matter what the adherents of deists may say), as a matter of absolute deductive logic, that there's some supernatural force at work, and conversely, until all the parameters are established (which is not going to happen within our lifetimes), the atheists can't disprove the existence of the supernatural either]

Parson's appearance in Erfworld, could be a spanner in the works (depending on how you see what he does) - that, it turns out they aren't, in fact, popped "knowing" everything that is needed to know about the world, and therefore it's not a "closed universe", or that it is a closed universe and that all his innovations are just examples of people not really thinking things through properly (for all those thousands of turns before).

[gazes_also]

However, the position that, if a creator was meddling in the affairs of mortals, then Charlie (with his unmatched thinkamancy and giant intelligence network) would have an inkling of it, is far more reasonable.

Only if you accept the notion that deific entities allow themselves to be subject to the powers and perceptions of mortals. The only way that would happen is if they allow it to happen.

As in revealing their Will to mortals?

[HandofShadows]

It's been pointed out that that is a narrated portion, perhaps an illustration of the story as it is being told.

That's conjecture. We have no reason to believe that what is presented isn't true, except for the desire of some readers for it to be otherwise.

And there is no more proof that it happened the way as it was depicted, other than the desire of some readers to belive it. (Creation legends from religions are often portayed as undeniable truth by those that belive in them even long after they have been proven false). While it is fairly obviouse that Erfworld is artifical, a created world as it where, my point is that the Titans need not be the ones who made it. The Titans could be a story/legend created by the real creator of Erfworld to hide their involvment. Or the Titans did exist, but where created by someone else for the purpose of making Erfworld. IE: The Titans where just the constuction crew and we have yet to see the true achitect/producer of Erfworld.

Or maybe we have see him, we just don't know it.

[Avalus]

Uh, ErfForum goes to religious debate ... cool

IE: The Titans where just the constuction crew and we have yet to see the true achitect/producer of Erfworld.

Or maybe we have see him, we just don't know it.

Well I'd say we exactly do know who it was !

Spoiler: show

It was... no IS Rob, Jamie and Xin

Also I like it, that this update has my favorite tentaclefaced spacelobster doctor mentioned in it.

So enough with the sillytalk .
I actally could not decide which scene I'd like to see the most in the next update (Parsons Plan unfurled? Trems talk with Slatly and the parley? Stanleys suggestion wearing off? All the possibilitys ...

[effataigus]

Antititan is so close to an palindrome!

Emm, speculation wise, I'd definitely buy that Charlie is responsible for the increased # of dragons... he seemed to be missing a motive, but desire for the arkenhammer makes sense. He beefs up the invading army so Stanley can level Faq, then he has the gobwin allies rebel and take down Gobwin Knob while Stanley is away. Faq and GK are dust and the hammer is wherever Stanely depopped... only he didn't know Stanley had already been made heir designate...

Indeed... very curious that Faq wasn't better prepared for this by the Predictamancer though. She knew that Faq would one day fall, but either the specifics eluded her, she was powerless to stop it, or she was OK with Faq falling.

I love the ideas thrown out in this forum... predictamancer-as-Charlie or predictamancer-as-MK-agent controlling everything.

Such a great story!

[gazes_also]

Indeed... very curious that Faq wasn't better prepared for this by the Predictamancer though. She knew that Faq would one day fall, but either the specifics eluded her, she was powerless to stop it, or she was OK with Faq falling.

I love the ideas thrown out in this forum... predictamancer-as-Charlie or predictamancer-as-MK-agent controlling everything.

Such a great story!

Let's get really paranoid.
The prediction about the fall of Faq was actually a not too subtly veiled threat. Dire consequences would follow if Banhammer did not do X, or cease to do Y. His response was to pop an heir and carry on doing what he was doing in the hope of thwarting the threateners before they got him. He failed.

[build6]

Indeed... very curious that Faq wasn't better prepared for this by the Predictamancer though. She knew that Faq would one day fall, but either the specifics eluded her, she was powerless to stop it, or she was OK with Faq falling.

We know that Wanda and Jack survived and went GK - what about the predictamancer? Did she get croaked?

Or was the predictamancer not from Faq, i.e. someone else in the Magic Kingdom that Wanda visited on her own?

[I<3ChocolateMilk]

Plus...their Foolamancer wasn't even in the capital. Wanda arranged that, too. We captured him when we razed their other two cities. Pretty neat package, right?

So, I'm curious how exactly Wanda went about arranging this particular double-bluff, or if there even was any "arranging" on Wanda's part.
We know that Faq operated on Jack veiling each of the 3 Faq cities, as determined by predictamancer.
This would suggest a few duplicities.

If this caster unit could determine which cities Jack was meant to veil turn by turn then it would certainly have been aware of the approaching dwagon army. The predictamancer would have had to have been in on it, or would at least have known and not cared enough to alert Banhammer.
Was there even an actual other threat more important than the one Faq was about to face that turn, and if there was, how was it orchestrated to fit into Wanda's plan so perfectly?
Does this mean that Wanda and this predictamancer are working hand in hand, or does it mean that Wanda (and the rest of Erfworld) is getting played by this predictamancer? And if it is the latter, how far back does the treachery stretch?
Or, and I'm not pandering to the Charlescomm suspicions here, is someone with masterclass thinkamancy manipulating others, i.e. the predictamancer in this case, to take specific actions to bring about their...actually, I'm halfway through this sentence and it sounds like I am suggesting it's Charlescomm. I'm really not, though. or I might be. But that's why speculation is fun. Bring on the grand reveal!

I still can't figure out why Jack would remain loyal to Stanley. He was given the perfect opportunity to end GK by letting Stanley get wasted and defect to Jillian's side and yet he instead chose to save Stanley. It makes me wonder how much stronger natural thinkamancies are than others, in particular modified loyalty scores in Jack's case (a conclusion drawn from the knowledge that Jack was captured, unlike Wanda), vs. his love for Jillian, and he clearly does still love her as the mere sight of her was powerful enough a reminder of his former life for him to regain most of his sanity. Are Jamie/Rob/Xin trying to tell us that Love may conquer most, but Thinkamancy > all?

No wonder Parson thought Thinkamancy was realy scary magic...

[timh]

Another possibility could be that the situation for FAQ would've been even worse if jack had been in the capital at the time of Stanley's attack. Jack could've turned along with Wanda?
Or the predictamancer saw that Jack still had his parts to play in helping Hamster, and if he would've been in the capital he would
ve been croaked.

We do not know what exactly a predictamancer can and cannot predict. Nor do we know how he would act upon the information they have. Is a predictamancer loyal to Fate? their own predictions? their ruler?

[Chris Goodwin]

All the "Titans would be detectable by Titanic artifacts" arguments presuppose that the Titans have made the decision that their world is "strongly" rule-based, i.e. that they'd choose themselves to only operate within originally set parameters. If this wasn't decided, then there's really no necessity that the Titans would be "detectable", per Ansan Gotti above. We have no evidence, either way, whether such a "decision" was made by the Titans, so you guys seem to be arguing past each other.

If the Titans are game designers and/or players (and sometimes the difference is hazy, especially among longtime wargamers) then they do choose themselves to only operate within originally set parameters. If you look at Erfworld from that standpoint, Titans-as-ancient-gods could as easily be myth, legend, or religion, or nonexistent, and, decision or not, the Arkentools would have no way of detecting them. On the other hand, every action taken (to the extent the rules of the game can represent actions Erfworlders can take) would be direct Titan-as-player Titanic action.