Book 2 – Text Updates 027

[gazes_also]

rouble!"

Once in the city hex, Stanley would be able to see/scout all enemy units that weren't veiled. So all the enemy casters would be reveiled to him. Hence "lots of casters" means exactly that. FAQ had a lot of casters. It's no stretch at all to believe the predictamancer was one of them.

Ah-ha, I missed that one. "A whole lot of casters". He may not have been able to tell what type (Ossomer didn't know what kind of caster Vanna was, and she was with an ally) but yes, he should have been aware that there were casters in the city, and that there was a bunch of them.

[Welf von Ehrwald]

I can think of one Warlord who was interested in philosophy. King Banhammer. He was even hoping for a Philosopher-Prince when he popped an heir. The other three people in the Warlords = crap panel could also be Warlords for all we know (What sort of treatment would Jillian define as "like crap" I wonder?). I'm far from convinced on the two Casters front, but it would explain a few things.

Banhammer was not a warlord but a royal. Royals we have seen or been told are more subtle, think independently, can think big picture and are capable of introspection, warlords, not so much.

If Banhammer was interested in a circle for philosophical discussions, the last thing he would want there would be a bored warlord who's only thinking about how he can best armour his gwiffon . Judging by Jack's comments the discussions were pretty wide ranging, comparing different magical disciplines.

The other 3 persons in the panel also could be courtiers. Also, not all warlords are obsessed with battle all the time. Some might develop genuine interest in philosophy given the chance. Others simply might be smart enough to pretend to be, so they can ingratiate themselves with their ruler.

[DevilDan]

Certainly Tramennis isn't the one-dimensional warlord that his brothers were.

In any case, I still see little reason to doubt Stanley's report that Faq had many casters.

[opal]

Didn't Jillian tell Don FAQ had an unusually large number of casters in the summer updates? So Stanly is confirming information the reader already knows.

[asparagus]

Didn't Jillian tell Don FAQ had an unusually large number of casters in the summer updates? So Stanly is confirming information the reader already knows.

Good catch. I withdraw my theory.

[Whispri]

Just curious...if Wanda's clan is Croatoan, does that suggest that she was not popped in Faq but was captured and turned, which accounts for her low Loyalty score?

That has been specced upon in the past iirc. I don't see any reason why this can't have been the case.

I don't see any real reason to doubt that Faq had a good number of casters: we've been introduced to the theory that there is a mechanism that chooses between casters and warlords based on the mindset of the ruler. Banhammer was opposed to war, so Faq popped casters more often than probably the vast majority of sides. Jill is focused on combat, so he's yet to pop a single one.

I just chalked that up to Jillian putting a positive spin on Divine disfavour level bad news to be honest. As far as reasons for doubt go, well it's been made clear that Jetstone's four Casters are a major part of their air defences even after the Tower Spells have been unleashed. So why did Stanley not speak of the Casters he fought in that battle? Like I said earlier I'm not sold on the idea, but...

I can think of one Warlord who was interested in philosophy. King Banhammer. He was even hoping for a Philosopher-Prince when he popped an heir. The other three people in the Warlords = crap panel could also be Warlords for all we know (What sort of treatment would Jillian define as "like crap" I wonder?). I'm far from convinced on the two Casters front, but it would explain a few things.

Banhammer was not a warlord but a royal. Royals we have seen or been told are more subtle, think independently, can think big picture and are capable of introspection, warlords, not so much.

If Banhammer was interested in a circle for philosophical discussions, the last thing he would want there would be a bored warlord who's only thinking about how he can best armour his gwiffon . Judging by Jack's comments the discussions were pretty wide ranging, comparing different magical disciplines.

... So all those pages identifying Jillian, Sammy, Ansom and his brothers as Warlords were in fact lying to us? Charlie directly referred to the imminent popping of a Royal Warlord in his Thinkathreat to the fallen Prince of Haggard. Yes they have improved stats, but then so do Nobles like Vinnie, Sylvia and Wanda. I mean, if Sylvia can compose poetry, why can't she engage in philisophical debate? As for those with no titles at all, have we ever seen such a Warlord without a pressing reason to concentrate on battle?

With regards to Banhammer's wants, beyond peace and philosophy, how can we tell what he desired?

Didn't Jillian tell Don FAQ had an unusually large number of casters in the summer updates? So Stanly is confirming information the reader already knows.

Not exactly, with regards to Casters I believe she told him that Faq had "quite a variety". And she hasn't been entirely truthful when it comes to Wanda in anycase. I'm pretty sure she did imply that Casters = many mind you, but she was pressing for war with Gobwin Knob and she just isn't reliable.

[Lord Kasavin]

Hey, I just thought of something interesting that this story seems to illustrate. If Stanley lost 10 or more Dwagons, and since Wanda turned... she should have been able to uncroak those Dwagons. The fact she did not is evidence that Dwagons are not uncroakable. OF course, decrypting makes that point moot, but still I thought it was interesting.

[I<3ChocolateMilk]

"My Queen, I could have turned him two times over with the juice I just used on that last spell" to paraphrase it.

Yeah, that to me suggests that she spent twice as much juice as she ordinarily would have on a single casting, and it still didn't work.

http://www.erfworld.com/page/29/
Suggests that casters can use more juice than they currently have in their pool at the current turn, although I think this is something unique to Turnamancers, if it is the case.

[Binty]

Hey, I just thought of something interesting that this story seems to illustrate. If Stanley lost 10 or more Dwagons, and since Wanda turned... she should have been able to uncroak those Dwagons. The fact she did not is evidence that Dwagons are not uncroakable. OF course, decrypting makes that point moot, but still I thought it was interesting.

We saw no uncroaked dwagons in the BfGK, if Wanda could have uncroaked Dwagon units she surely would have.

[Curxzed]

Yeah, that to me suggests that she spent twice as much juice as she ordinarily would have on a single casting, and it still didn't work.

What do you mean it didn't work? She ended GK's turn with that spell. I fully believe she had to be linked to do it though. Maybe you and I are talking about 2 different spells here.

http://www.erfworld.com/page/29/
Suggests that casters can use more juice than they currently have in their pool at the current turn, although I think this is something unique to Turnamancers, if it is the case.

Your link here also points to the same casting. So which spell are you talking about, Kingworld, or her failed attempt to turn Ansom from a distance afterwards?

Sorry I just don't buy her using more than one of her sides turns worth of juice on one spell. It will always be two attempts to turn a unit worth. Without any other evidence to support that theory aside from her reply to Jillian about her juice level, I can't go along with it. Since it's a simple case of one word, two meanings, you really have to go with the less obtrusive definition without any further proof.

I'm sorry sir, but your logic is flawed.

[robak]

Sorry I just don't buy her using more than one of her sides turns worth of juice on one spell. It will always be two attempts to turn a unit worth. Without any other evidence to support that theory aside from her reply to Jillian about her juice level, I can't go along with it. Since it's a simple case of one word, two meanings, you really have to go with the less obtrusive definition without any further proof.

I'm sorry sir, but your logic is flawed.

She said "[Juice level is] Low. That spell [Kingsworld] cost two turns' worth, basically."
That could be constructed as "Two turn unit spells worth", but I would phrase that as "Two turnings worth". To me it's pretty clear, she's referring to two turns (as in days) worth of juice. So if she usually gets 100 Juice points per day, the spell cost 200jp. Maybe Charlie payed 150 of it, maybe the link gives additional juice, maybe a turnamancer can accumulate juice over several turns, maybe every caster can.

[I<3ChocolateMilk]

Yeah, that to me suggests that she spent twice as much juice as she ordinarily would have on a single casting, and it still didn't work.

What do you mean it didn't work? She ended GK's turn with that spell. I fully believe she had to be linked to do it though. Maybe you and I are talking about 2 different spells here.

http://www.erfworld.com/page/29/
Suggests that casters can use more juice than they currently have in their pool at the current turn, although I think this is something unique to Turnamancers, if it is the case.

Your link here also points to the same casting. So which spell are you talking about, Kingworld, or her failed attempt to turn Ansom from a distance afterwards?

Sorry I just don't buy her using more than one of her sides turns worth of juice on one spell. It will always be two attempts to turn a unit worth. Without any other evidence to support that theory aside from her reply to Jillian about her juice level, I can't go along with it. Since it's a simple case of one word, two meanings, you really have to go with the less obtrusive definition without any further proof.

I'm sorry sir, but your logic is flawed.

Nothing wrong with my logic, sweetheart. I'm analysing your paraphrased text (hence why I quoted it...), and what your text suggests is that she used up enough juice to cast the spell twice. Bearing in mind that your paraphrased text references her attempt to (by my understanding) turn another unit, i.e. possibly referring to her attempt to turn Ansom. However, that particular dialogue never happened.
Not my fault you went off and made up your own script now, is it?

If we're talking about the Kingsworld Skip-A-Turn-Apalooza, then it's clear that the spell cost more juice than she ordinarily has in her own juice pool. The fact that she has juice left at all could be because of two things (or both):
a) Charlie provided some extra juice to cast the spell via the link
b) She is able to tap juice from a future turn, or is able to save up juice from a previous turn (whether this is an all-casters or Turnamancer-only ability is further speculation)

If we're talking about the spell she tries on Ansom to make him turn sides then there's no refrence made to juice, other than the Turnamancer making it clear that she's run out after casting the spell once, and certainly no further reference made to how much juice was used in the previously mentioned Kingsworld spell.

[I<3ChocolateMilk]

We don't know how exactly the predictamancer determined the city to veil. It's possible that he only foresaw which city will be next in proximity to non-allied troops, or which city to veil to keep the kingdom hidden as long as possible. Then Stanley might simply have overflown one of the smaller cities first, and Wanda later told him that she arranged for it.

Oh, cool! I don't know if I've managed to read anything about speculation as to the geography of the land around Faq.

As I've said, it's quite possible that the Predictamancer had to work within certain boundaries/criteria when working the magic, but it doesn't mean that one prediction uses up a full turn's worth of juice, so I'd still ask why there wasn't a check being made for multiple criteria, i.e. discovery vs. destruction.

[Curxzed]

This is awesome. So we go from trying to figure out if she used up enough juice on Kingworld to cast two turn spells, to being certain it was two whole turns worth of juice. How is it "clear" she used more juice than she normally gets in a turn? Based on the one single sentence? If this is your only evidence, a single spoken sentence with an ambiuous word, then yes. Your logic is flawed.

Thats like trying to figure out how tall the candle was before it was burned down to the nub based solely on the wax puddle left over.

And sorry bud, I don't swing that way. But I'm pretty sure if you try hard enough you can find someone else to start your bromance with.

Robak, yes I admit it COULD go either way. It's POSSIBLE that she got a boost from Charlie or she "borrowed" juice from a future turn or saved some from a previous turn. However this is very very far from certain.

Without further evidence or proof I have no confidence that it is the more extreme theory. My firm belief is that Vanna has enough juice to perform about 3 casts of the "turn unit" spell per turn. And Kingworld cost her almost 2 of those.

It's also quite probable that the spell costs different amounts based on the circumstances under which it is cast. For instance, lower juice cost for lower level unit, in same hex, etc. versus a higher level, warlord class, in a different hex. But that is a completely different discussion.

[Whispri]

Isn't it more likely that a Caster's Juice refreshes at the start of a turn along with move and hits? And that Jillian's hired Witch had most of this power drained from her (To all intents and purposes using two turns worth of the stuff, the power she used to cast it and the power she should have gained.),
thus preventing the spell from having no effective cost?

[I<3ChocolateMilk]

Okay, I understand you now.
You're interpreting the word turn as relating to Vanna's ability to turn units.

You're basing that speculation on what, though? Because unless it's some idiosyncracy of Turnamancers in general or Vanna in particular (similar to the Dittomancer repeating himself all the time) to refer to turns as their ability to turn units from one side to another, as opposed to the more general reference to a side's turn in combat etc. I don't understand why you would think that, especially considering that the overwhelming plot device used in that page and the page preceding it was that GKs turn was magically ended.

Thus far, when most people of Erf refer to the word turn they appear to be talking about the length of time allocated to their side by the ruler/overlord of their side. I don't see why the writers would suddenly introduce this plot element relating to a Turnamancer without any foundation for it in any prior pages, especially when the overruling theme of the current and previous page relates to the length of time a side has to take actions.

If anyone is looking for ambiguity here, it aint me. It's your assumption that this word is used ambiguously.

It's more than probable that the Turn Unit spell costs differing amounts of juice depending on the "level" of the unit and other circumstances. Jillian specifically asks Vanna if she has enough juice left to turn a high level unit at range. Why mention variables like level and distance at all if the Turn Unit spell works or doesn't work, no matter what the circumstances of the casting?

P.S. I still love you, even if you don't want to be my secret boyfriend

[Welf von Ehrwald]

Oh, cool! I don't know if I've managed to read anything about speculation as to the geography of the land around Faq.

As I've said, it's quite possible that the Predictamancer had to work within certain boundaries/criteria when working the magic, but it doesn't mean that one prediction uses up a full turn's worth of juice, so I'd still ask why there wasn't a check being made for multiple criteria, i.e. discovery vs. destruction.

We know too few to decide what exactly limits predictamancy. The only thin we can assume is, that it's not possible to ask "if" questions, because that would be mathamancy. Another problem, is it possible to prevent a predicted event, if it was predicted?
Let's fetch the tin hat and make some theories: Maybe it's only possible to ask for results of events, but not for the circumstances, or make quantitative boundaries to that question. So a predictamancer can say that a city will be destroyed, but not by whom or when. Or he could predict that Stanley will destroy a city, but not which city. And the predicted event will happen in any case.
If that is correct, maybe they have once asked witch city will be destroyed first, and the caster correctly said 'the capital'. But they can't ask when, so they never bothered. And they can't make specific questions like "will the city be destroyed within 10/20/.. turns".

So, I can take the tin hat off again.

[DevilDan]

Isn't it more likely that a Caster's Juice refreshes at the start of a turn along with move and hits? And that Jillian's hired Witch had most of this power drained from her (To all intents and purposes using two turns worth of the stuff, the power she used to cast it and the power she should have gained.),
thus preventing the spell from having no effective cost?

According to the wiki, juice gets restored at the start of the turn.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Juice

She did have enough left over to try to turn Ansom.

[Curxzed]

Okay, I understand you now.
You're interpreting the word turn as relating to Vanna's ability to turn units.

absolutely

You're basing that speculation on what, though? Because unless it's some idiosyncracy of Turnamancers in general or Vanna in particular (similar to the Dittomancer repeating himself all the time) to refer to turns as their ability to turn units from one side to another, as opposed to the more general reference to a side's turn in combat etc. I don't understand why you would think that, especially considering that the overwhelming plot device used in that page and the page preceding it was that GKs turn was magically ended.

I'm basing my speculation on the fact that the word turn has been used for both meanings throughout the comic. Many many examples of people talking to each other "now would be a good time to turn, Jack!" Jillian went and asked Jack again if he wanted to turn, right after Vanna cast her "endturnnow" spell. This event actually happened more recently than Kingsworld, so the overwhelming plot device is diluted some.

Thus far, when most people of Erf refer to the word turn they appear to be talking about the length of time allocated to their side by the ruler/overlord of their side. I don't see why the writers would suddenly introduce this plot element relating to a Turnamancer without any foundation for it in any prior pages, especially when the overruling theme of the current and previous page relates to the length of time a side has to take actions.

I do agree, it is by far the more common usage of the word, but it is far from the only way they use it. In fact, during times of more stress, the "unit turn" meaning is the more used version.

If anyone is looking for ambiguity here, it aint me. It's your assumption that this word is used ambiguously.

By not looking for it, you deny the possibility that it is there. I'm not assuming it is used ambiguous, I feel she meant one thing and one thing only. However, WE do not KNOW which way she meant, thus the word IS ambiguous, regardless of wether you feel it is or not.

It's more than probable that the Turn Unit spell costs differing amounts of juice depending on the "level" of the unit and other circumstances. Jillian specifically asks Vanna if she has enough juice left to turn a high level unit at range. Why mention variables like level and distance at all if the Turn Unit spell works or doesn't work, no matter what the circumstances of the casting?

Hey, I agree. In fact I mentioned something like this in one of my earlier posts.

EDIT>> the simple explaination here is that the spell has a base cost, and she was referring to that base as her unit of measurement. Other elements would add amounts of juice used, or the whole thing could be analog rather than digital. IE, keep pumping juice into it until he turns or you run out. The range, his level, the fact he is a warlord could all influence the % chance per point of juice spent attempting. We have no way of knowing any of these things.

P.S. I still love you, even if you don't want to be my secret boyfriend

I do enjoy a debate.


The thing here that I find a little odd in retrospect, is that Vanna cast Kingworld on GK's turn. That turn ended. Now it becomes RCC2's turn. Shouldn't her juice have refreshed? But it didn't. It was low. I would have expected her juice to fully refresh at the start of her turn. Could be a side effect of her spell, or a side effect of her link with Charlie, or juice could refresh at dawn regardless of who's turn it is. Could be something that is in dire need of retconjuration, but I would never assume that.

[robak]

I guess that is exactly why it was "almost two turns worth". The rest she had on GKs turn plus the juice that didn't refresh when her new turn started.
btw. If Jillian told Vanna "Come here, and fast!" would she mean that she should hurry up or that she shouldn't eat anything?