Book 2 – Page 37

[Decorus]

Are we sure Stanley and Slately aren't twins seperated at popping?
Tram and Parson will have an interesting conversation.
Parson mentioned a food fight and his notes were about gravity and he needs Wanda alive for it to work.
I'm guessing he plans on dropping rations on the enemy then decrypting the ones who die or crashing his non decrypted dragons into the enemy and decrypting what ever dies from the crash.

[Lord Kasavin]

Are we sure Stanley and Slately aren't twins seperated at popping?

I have to admit that Slately does not come out well in this page. But Stanley is in a league all his own. The only other character I've seen with as little regard for others and the consquences of his actions is... Jillian. I cannot blame Slately for fingering her as a traitor, even if she ultimately did provide him the means for victory.

Tram and Parson will have an interesting conversation.

Maybe, but there is no reason to think Parson will talk to Wanda. Trem will probably want to talk to Ossomer and Wanda, and won't think to ask for a thinkagram to the new CW that no one knows is alive and is very good at his job (other than Charlie).

Parson mentioned a food fight and his notes were about gravity and he needs Wanda alive for it to work.
I'm guessing he plans on dropping rations on the enemy then decrypting the ones who die or crashing his non decrypted dragons into the enemy and decrypting what ever dies from the crash.

My guess is the many Hobgobwin Knights will jump from ther Dwagons and role to see if they live, probably onto the tower where the defense is weakest... maybe. If enough Knights survive, they could theoretically take the tower thus zone control would go to GK, meaning the rest of the force could be allowed to cross into the new zone, including Wanda who could now Decrypt the knights that didn't make it. Since they are in a tower, the archers can't target them without themselves entering the tower and thus vulnerable to an attack back. I'm guessing Parson hopes to be able to fight his way down to the garrison from this point, decrypting units as they fall and hope to overwhelm Jetstone before reinforcements arrive to stop the offense. Or, maybe Parson hopes Slately himself will be at the parley and the falling Knights can go for a decapitation strike.

That, of course, is the plan. The reality will probably keep Jetstone alive for the many story reasons mentioned earlier. Also, because the side provides some interesting characters that it would be a shame to loose.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I have to admit that Slately does not come out well in this page. But Stanley is in a league all his own. The only other character I've seen with as little regard for others and the consquences of his actions is... Jillian. I cannot blame Slately for fingering her as a traitor, even if she ultimately did provide him the means for victory.

My sentiments exactly. I'd love to see a character really rip into Jillian's totally callous version of leadership, and said critical character NOT being immediately portrayed as an idiot.

I like Stanley, I like Slately, so apparently I like idiots but come on, surely somebody who's not totally frozen in the noggin can call Jill for what she is, while not being immediately punished with the Idiot Ball.

[build6]

Are we sure Stanley and Slately aren't twins seperated at popping?
Tram and Parson will have an interesting conversation.

indeed. this could be one of those "if only they weren't on opposing sides, they could've been friends" kind of situations

[teratorn]

My guess is the many Hobgobwin Knights will jump from ther Dwagons and role to see if they live, probably onto the tower where the defense is weakest... maybe. If enough Knights survive, they could theoretically take the tower thus zone control would go to GK, meaning the rest of the force could be allowed to cross into the new zone, including Wanda who could now Decrypt the knights that didn't make it.

She can't, she has no move. But she may be able to decrypt units there now that she is in control of that zone.

[Magothys]

The funny thing is...

Since this is Erfworld, and time is completely relative, there is ALWAYS time to stop and think. You could spend hours, days, weeks of time planning out every one of your units moves, sending messages, working diplomacy, calculating odds... before ending your turn. And nobody else would ever notice the delay. Because it's your turn, and you can take as long as you like.

In fact, I get the sneaking suspicion that this is exactly the way Charlie plays. He even has the Arkendish, and I'll go out on a limb and say he never runs out of juice for communications. He has time every single turn to personally talk to each Archon, to answer every call, to call everybody he wants, to issue as many specific orders to individual Archons around Erf as he wants. He can micromanage to his hearts content.

So in this current situation... Trem's point is "why not do diplomacy?" It's not like we're in a rush. The invaders can't go anywhere. He can spend as much "time" as he wants calling people up, trying to figure out the deeper meaning of what's going on, analyzing strategy, making deals. He doesn't have to attack until he's good and ready.

There's no reason not to be careful and micro-manage your plans. Absolutely no reason to rush your turn.

And to sides not in the battlespace, this spent "time" was simply a blip. They never notice it passing.

(excepting, of course, this magic "TIME WARP" spell. That's gotta be ruffling some feathers, since it's never been possible before. Now suddenly there's thought of "rushing" your turn before somebody else ends it without your permission.)

This is not the case. I refer you to http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE029_JoeZuniga_DrunkTime.jpg. Time does not stop within a given hex, normally (unless the side loses its leader, in which case city units are frozen until another side attacks, as mentioned in http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F098b.jpg).

[HailGreen28]

The funny thing is...

Since this is Erfworld, and time is completely relative, there is ALWAYS time to stop and think. You could spend hours, days, weeks of time planning out every one of your units moves, sending messages, working diplomacy, calculating odds... before ending your turn. And nobody else would ever notice the delay. Because it's your turn, and you can take as long as you like.

In fact, I get the sneaking suspicion that this is exactly the way Charlie plays. He even has the Arkendish, and I'll go out on a limb and say he never runs out of juice for communications. He has time every single turn to personally talk to each Archon, to answer every call, to call everybody he wants, to issue as many specific orders to individual Archons around Erf as he wants. He can micromanage to his hearts content.

So in this current situation... Trem's point is "why not do diplomacy?" It's not like we're in a rush. The invaders can't go anywhere. He can spend as much "time" as he wants calling people up, trying to figure out the deeper meaning of what's going on, analyzing strategy, making deals. He doesn't have to attack until he's good and ready.

There's no reason not to be careful and micro-manage your plans. Absolutely no reason to rush your turn.

And to sides not in the battlespace, this spent "time" was simply a blip. They never notice it passing.

(excepting, of course, this magic "TIME WARP" spell. That's gotta be ruffling some feathers, since it's never been possible before. Now suddenly there's thought of "rushing" your turn before somebody else ends it without your permission.)

This is not the case. I refer you to http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE029_JoeZuniga_DrunkTime.jpg. Time does not stop within a given hex, normally (unless the side loses its leader, in which case city units are frozen until another side attacks, as mentioned in http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F098b.jpg).

Both what Namelips posted and what you link to, describe what's going on.

How about this theory: Time doesn't stop in a hex unless your Ruler is croaked. But time in battlespace and other movements does SPEED UP, to the point that sides doing something like fighting or scouting could reasonably take a lot of time to do what they want. Time might even be sped up proportionally to how much move you have left or some other actions. Then at the end of the action/turn, BOOM they're down to normal time speed again. That way you could have a consistent day/night time rate for everybody in Erfworld, while people in battlespace can still use time at different rates.

[name lips]

We don't know how many sides there are in Erfworld. We're led to believe that nobody on Erf even knows how big the world is, or how many cities and sides there are.

You never have to sit and twiddle your thumbs while some side far to the south of you that you've never met fights a prolonged battle with another side down there. It all happens so fast that you're completely unaware. It's a blip, completely inconsequential to you.

If Charlie wanted to micromanage every single one of his units every turn, nobody would notice. It's not like they'd go "Hey, gosh, Charlie must be up to something, his turn is taking a really long time today."

In terms of the neutral faction spawning, who knows how much work that takes to set up? But again, nobody would notice.

Even units on the same side don't perceive time the same way. It takes some units "hours" of personal time to move someplace, while their leader back home (if he's using a trimancer battlemat like Stanley was) would just see them move quickly from one hex to the next in a matter of seconds, like pieces on a chessboard.

Only units in the same battlespace seem to perceive time at the same rate as each other. But for all they know their leaders at home are taking hours planning their next move. They can't tell. Two hours could pass back at the command room, while only a second passes for them while they wait for orders.

[Magothys]

Since this is Erfworld, and time is completely relative, there is ALWAYS time to stop and think. You could spend hours, days, weeks of time planning out every one of your units moves, sending messages, working diplomacy, calculating odds... before ending your turn.

I don't dispute that the actions of units outside the hex/battlespace appear faster. But actions for a single unit still need to be done within a day. Units wouldn't have weeks to plan the moves of a single turn.

EDIT: Parson voices his concern of Stanley ending the turn "early" in Book 1. This would imply that there is a time limit to play out one's turn.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F112.jpg

[HailGreen28]

Since this is Erfworld, and time is completely relative, there is ALWAYS time to stop and think. You could spend hours, days, weeks of time planning out every one of your units moves, sending messages, working diplomacy, calculating odds... before ending your turn.

I don't dispute that the actions of units outside the hex/battlespace appear faster. But actions for a single unit still need to be done within a day. Units wouldn't have weeks to plan the moves of a single turn.

EDIT: Parson voices his concern of Stanley ending the turn "early" in Book 1. This would imply that there is a time limit to play out one's turn.

I think from the example you posted and what I've seen in the comic, action in battlespace IS SPED UP to allow units to take a reasonable amount of time without having to reset the whole world clock.

The reason Parson was worried was that Stanly could have ended the turn at any moment. "Welp, I feel like taking a nap, end the turn" (I know Stanley wouldn't have to do so, just saying he might have.)

This is a pretty good example of how there isn't an infinite amount of time to do things on your turn. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-12-03.jpg Wanda says "We haven't time."

[gazes_also]

I have to admit that Slately does not come out well in this page. But Stanley is in a league all his own. The only other character I've seen with as little regard for others and the consquences of his actions is... Jillian. I cannot blame Slately for fingering her as a traitor, even if she ultimately did provide him the means for victory.

My sentiments exactly. I'd love to see a character really rip into Jillian's totally callous version of leadership, and said critical character NOT being immediately portrayed as an idiot.

I like Stanley, I like Slately, so apparently I like idiots but come on, surely somebody who's not totally frozen in the noggin can call Jill for what she is, while not being immediately punished with the Idiot Ball.

How is her version of leadership "totally callous" or any different from any other RULER on Erfworld?

Slately is, of course, right to be distrustful of Jillian, but he distrusts her for all the wrong reasons.
He distrusts her because she's a jumped up barbarian mercenary and he expects her to take orders and get croaked as if he'd paid her. She's not, she's a ruler who can make and break alliances as she pleases. Where his outrage at Dickie, who would have let JS fall if he hadn't had an Archon's finger put to his head? But Dickie is a royal so that conduct is acceptable, heck, Staley would have done the same if the positions were reversed.
Slately's prejudices will be the end of him. One of the causes of the current situation is that Slately couldn't accept a non-royal ruler in the game of territorial conflict and set out to utterly destroy GK as a message to any other stabber who might get ideas above his station.
He judges people by who they are, not by what they do. Charlie is a toolist because he is attuned. Jillian is a no good barbarian even though she saved his ass. Don is a royal, so it's ok he hasn't committed a single unit of his own to this fight. Dickie is a good chap because he's a proper royal like him, so nearly getting stabbed in the back is part of the game.
He's not an idiot, he's a sad little man who gets littler with each passing turn. The impact of seeing Ossomer could destroy what's left of his pretensions; remember what happened when Queen Bea saw the decrypted that had once been her heir? I feel sorry for him, he's witnessing the end of the world as he knows it.

[BLANDCorporatio]

How is her version of leadership "totally callous" or any different from any other RULER on Erfworld?

What Jillian lacks, and other rulers on Erfworld have, is an ideology. Here's the key to your answer.

Slately, Don, Wanda- all of them servants of Royalty or Toolism. Even Charlie has a similar preoccupation- market forces. Other rulers, like Dickie and the Jitterati, too little information to tell but presumably they've got their own philosophies. Leaving only Jillian and Stanley as the odd ducks out. More on that comparison later.

Ideologies may get a bad rap, what with blinding people to the obvious and such, but they mean that one is aware of and following some transcendent purpose. Something beyond themselves, that they believe is worth it, worth communicating and persuading about, some shared ideal that will go on if/once they get croaked. I'd say this is true even of Wanda.

What this also means is playing by some rules and paying attention to consequences. I expect no ruler to care about the welfare of each piker, or about the welfare of warlords as more than means to an end; Earth rulers are much the same. But good rulers would pause and think before risking even their lowly pikers.

Besides, all the ideology you need is the welfare of your side to be a good ruler. Royalty/Toolism and all others are extensions of that, theories on how to build the fittest Side, or better environment for Sides, in Erfworld. The Magic Kingdom also has several ideas about that, which I'd like to hear more about. Where's Sizemore Titans Damn It?!

In contrast, I suspect Jillian's mind does not reach that far. It is simply not capable of an attention span beyond that of a goldfish. All her actions were either dictated by other parties or, more recently, driven by selfish goals of getting at least one toy back and then getting back at Stanley. She does NOT care about the reputation nor presumably welfare, of her side. I have yet to see evidence of any real character growth on her part. She was reluctant to embrace the role of Queen, and still behaves as if she were a small-time mercenary.

Stanley is much alike. The difference is that the story admits Stanley is an idiot, while no such honesty is allowed for Jillian. Where Stanley is a fool caught way above his level of competence, Jillian is a fool for whom fate shines again and again. So while Stanley is a tragic figure- in the classical sense even- Jillian is simply obnoxious.

[gazes_also]

How is her version of leadership "totally callous" or any different from any other RULER on Erfworld?

What Jillian lacks, and other rulers on Erfworld have, is an ideology. Here's the key to your answer.

Slately, Don, Wanda- all of them servants of Royalty or Toolism. Even Charlie has a similar preoccupation- market forces. Other rulers, like Dickie and the Jitterati, too little information to tell but presumably they've got their own philosophies. Leaving only Jillian and Stanley as the odd ducks out. More on that comparison later.

Ideologies may get a bad rap, what with blinding people to the obvious and such, but they mean that one is aware of and following some transcendent purpose. Something beyond themselves, that they believe is worth it, worth communicating and persuading about, some shared ideal that will go on if/once they get croaked. I'd say this is true even of Wanda.

Call me an existentialist cynic, but in most cases an ideology is generally an external justification for doing what you would have done anyway.

What this also means is playing by some rules and paying attention to consequences. I expect no ruler to care about the welfare of each piker, or about the welfare of warlords as more than means to an end; Earth rulers are much the same. But good rulers would pause and think before risking even their lowly pikers.

And that would be why the side in this conflict suffering the fewest losses in combat so far would be...?

Besides, all the ideology you need is the welfare of your side to be a good ruler. Royalty/Toolism and all others are extensions of that, theories on how to build the fittest Side, or better environment for Sides, in Erfworld. The Magic Kingdom also has several ideas about that, which I'd like to hear more about. Where's Sizemore Titans Damn It?!

In contrast, I suspect Jillian's mind does not reach that far. It is simply not capable of an attention span beyond that of a goldfish. All her actions were either dictated by other parties or, more recently, driven by selfish goals of getting at least one toy back and then getting back at Stanley. She does NOT care about the reputation nor presumably welfare, of her side. I have yet to see evidence of any real character growth on her part. She was reluctant to embrace the role of Queen, and still behaves as if she were a small-time mercenary.

As that small time mercenary she may have worked for a number of sides each with their own ideology for which they went to war, and maybe she saw that really they are no different and all sides behave equally badly no matter how superior they believe themselves to be.
Having no ideology does not make you irresponsible, quite the opposite; if you have no higher cause to justify your actions then you are ultimately responsible for them, you and no-one else.

Fighting for pay, first for her Father, then to survive, leaves her as the only character with no illusions: there are no great causes, it really is all personal. That's what makes her as frightening as those who believe utterly in their Fate.
She was reluctant to become queen, to become that idealized figurehead, but it sees that she gets criticized for actually acting like a queen, and putting her own wants ahead of her 'clients'.

Her motivations are personal, and unlike everyone else, (except possibly Charlie) she doesn't pretend otherwise. That's what to me makes her the most multidimensional of all the Erfers.

[slb]

[...]Trem will probably want to talk to Ossomer and Wanda, and won't think to ask for a thinkagram to the new CW that no one knows is alive and is very good at his job (other than Charlie).

Right, I think that Parson is clearly the ace in GK's game that all sides ignore except Charlie. I'm not even sure that he will be disclosed to the RCCII if he moves when the parley with Ossomer start.

Parson mentioned a food fight and his notes were about gravity and he needs Wanda alive for it to work. My guess is the many Hobgobwin Knights will jump from ther Dwagons and role to see if they live, probably onto the tower where the defense is weakest... maybe. [...] Or, maybe Parson hopes Slately himself will be at the parley and the falling Knights can go for a decapitation strike.[...]That, of course, is the plan. The reality will probably keep Jetstone alive for the many story reasons mentioned earlier. Also, because the side provides some interesting characters that it would be a shame to loose.

Yes, Parson will probably achieve a stall, gaining the tower while Slately and Trem hold the garrison and town, forcing GK to retreat on their turn and allowing Charlie to throw more wrenches in Parson's plans.

[Lord Kasavin]

How is her version of leadership "totally callous" or any different from any other RULER on Erfworld?'

To throw some terms around, I'd say it is the difference between "side-interest" and self-interest. While we haven't seen the behavior of other rulers when they are not ruling, Jillian stands out for not just how she acts as a "ruler," but how she acts as a person. For example, depending on one's perspective Jetstone selflessly devoted considerable resources in forming and leading the first RCC to rid the world of a widely recognized evil when the side itself was not significantly threatened by Stanley. Jillian, after signing up for the RCC, often acted recklessly and got captured multiple times giving the enemy intelligence that probably would have been useful had the CW not been a disposable pretty boy.

Slately is, of course, right to be distrustful of Jillian, but he distrusts her for all the wrong reasons.
He distrusts her because she's a jumped up barbarian mercenary and he expects her to take orders and get croaked as if he'd paid her. She's not, she's a ruler who can make and break alliances as she pleases.

Slately certainly has his biases, and Jillian does everything she can to conform to them. Imagine had Jillian showed up and said this, "Greetings, your highness. Though we do have different ideas regarding royalty, I remain steadfast in my commitment to removing a great evil from this world and look forward to working with you to do so." The fact she does not "take tea" would have been overlooked. Instead, she probably dropped insults, mocked the court, and kept her plans steadfastly to herself. For example, Slately did not know the type of caster Jillian brought. His instincts that Jillian tried to sell him out were dead on!

Where his outrage at Dickie, who would have let JS fall if he hadn't had an Archon's finger put to his head? But Dickie is a royal so that conduct is acceptable, heck, Staley would have done the same if the positions were reversed.

Uh, Jetstone's term for him was RINO (Royal in Name Only). He was never happy with Haggar, but at the same time needed them. A similar attitude existed for Jillian. Jetstone was in a very difficult position of being outnumbered, and the hope, however slim, was Haggar could be persuaded to act like a proper alliance upon realizing how real the threat was.

Slately's prejudices will be the end of him.

Maybe, but my feelings are that Jillian's behavior is going to cost many others their lives. She definitely got Jaclyn killed. You complain about Slately's biases, but Jillian's behavior is more destructive. Despite being in a new relationship with Vinnie (we need to see some more of him), she offers to betray and destroy not only Jetstone, but Transylvito by extension and thus Vinnie himself for a chance to get back in with her ex. Her behavior comes across as that petty.

On personal note, had Slately been incredibly nice and accommodating to Jillian, I don't think her behavior would have changed one iota.

One of the causes of the current situation is that Slately couldn't accept a non-royal ruler in the game of territorial conflict and set out to utterly destroy GK as a message to any other stabber who might get ideas above his station.

There are a ton of non-Royal sides that we know of: Carpool, Jitterati, Charlescomm, etc. Most continue to exist just fine. Stanley might not have been a welcome member to the royal elite club, but his behavior is what made him such a great enemy... starting with the whole regicide thing (whether it was on him or not, there was enough reasonable suspicion), followed by a proclamation of a new Titanic mandate that royalty was obsolete, and the proceeded to attack surrounding sides with no attention paid to casus belli understanding.

He judges people by who they are, not by what they do. Charlie is a toolist because he is attuned. Jillian is a no good barbarian even though she saved his ass. Don is a royal, so it's ok he hasn't committed a single unit of his own to this fight. Dickie is a good chap because he's a proper royal like him, so nearly getting stabbed in the back is part of the game.
He's not an idiot, he's a sad little man who gets littler with each passing turn. The impact of seeing Ossomer could destroy what's left of his pretensions; remember what happened when Queen Bea saw the decrypted that had once been her heir? I feel sorry for him, he's witnessing the end of the world as he knows it.

Uh, to quote Slately himself, "Don was never a model Royal at the best of times: ever so mercenary, ever so informal. He had given up on even having a Royal line of succession for an inexcusably long time. Well, at least he had finally relented on that. After Gobwin Knob and many, many talks, Don was at last coming around to a proper view of things. Slately could only hope it was not too late. And yet, what did Don King send to Slately's aid? A handful of spy bats, and this...woman."

So, yeah, Slately is definitely as concerned with behavior and not just a generic stamp of royal/not-royal. And he is also not happy that Don only sent Jillian, who for all her swagger we know was very unreliable. So, essentially I think you are just making stuff up now. Yes, Slately is very ideological and apparently judgmental. Yet, he has taken on the responsibility to make the world a better place, as he sees it anyways. Jillian when offered some responsibility is more likely to insult the person offering it and look for a way to screw them over just to prove a point. Stanley is equivable, but certainly not identical. He orders countless units to their deaths and when the going gets tough flees, killing a person in the process. I won't call Jillian cowardly, at least, but her offer to Wanda would certainly have gotten a lot of people killed, including Vinnie.

[gazes_also]

Maybe, but my feelings are that Jillian's behavior is going to cost many others their lives. She definitely got Jaclyn killed. You complain about Slately's biases, but Jillian's behavior is more destructive. Despite being in a new relationship with Vinnie (we need to see some more of him), she offers to betray and destroy not only Jetstone, but Transylvito by extension and thus Vinnie himself for a chance to get back in with her ex. Her behavior comes across as that petty...

... I won't call Jillian cowardly, at least, but her offer to Wanda would certainly have gotten a lot of people killed, including Vinnie.

Let's see, Wanda joins with Jillian, they wipe out Jetstone, then go back to GK and croak Stanley. Jillian puts Wanda in touch with Charlie to help with her plan to get all the archentools together and they retreat peacefully to Faq. Seem to me that while deeply cynical and expedient, that plan could have saved thousands of lives. How keen would Don be on avenging Slately, when he hasn't committed any of his own forces to the fight and and whom he must know looked down on him as a RINO? He would dismiss it as just business.

[Oberon]

Note that he told Trem to not contact Charley, but didn't order him to not do it.
But he's still a douche-bag.

I agree he is a douchbag. But perhaps this is what is needed to be a lasting ruler of a Side. Stanley is a jerk, Slately is a douche, Don King is manipulative and furtive, Dickie thought the height of cleverness was sending a huge army "to help Jetstone" with full intent to rape it at any opportunity, and Charlie is a magnificent bastard. Bea we didn't see much of. Have we seen a single Side ruler of any duration who is likable without caveat?

On the "don't contact", I saw it more as an objection. He yelled "Absolutely not", but when the conversation continued about Trem speaking with Charlie, and when Trem ended with "I plan to have a talk with [Ossomer], as well", it's clear that Slately would have had to issue a more direct order to keep Trem from doing things his way.

[Oberon]

What Charlie probably DOESN'T know or has been holding back, is the true nature of Wanda and Jillian's relationship. Had he known that he would have never expected Jillian to attack Wanda. Or if he DID know, then it would seem even Charlie doesn't understand the mechanics of Love in Erfworld.

Charlie knows. He had three Archons there at GK to witness the parley between Jillian and Wanda. And two of them lived through it. I think it's safe to assume that Archons have standing orders to report interesting things like this. Or frankly just to give a daily status report even if they didn't think something was interesting. It fits in with the Charlescomm corporate model, and it also improves intelligence gathering.

Sure, I'll grant you that. Tramennis has good reasons for behaving the way he does.

But, at the end of the day, it's results that matter. If when all his said and done, all his fancy diplomacy does is get him croaked (or, at least, get him into another bad situation), where Slately's straightforward plan wouldn't have - I'd have a hard time agreeing that he's a good chief warlord, because ifs and buts (if only the world played out like he expected) are just excuses.

It's kind of funny. I don't recall anyone criticizing Parson when his plan was to speak with all the leaders of the coalition, to gather intelligence and to try to look for a wedge in the alliances. But now that Trem is doing the exact same thing, he seems to be getting nothing but flack. It's Jetstone's turn, they have the luxury, barring Kingworld, to set their own pace for the flow of the turn, how to position units, when to attack, and who to engage in parlay with. I really don't understand why anyone would think that looking to collect some intelligence before engaging in a combat that you think you can win hands down would be a bad thing.

[kwotski]

i hadn't expected Tramennis to be so ... forceful w.r.t. Slately, though. Was he always like that, or is it because Tramennis has decided he has nothing to lose at this point?

I think it's more a case of him growing into his new Chief Warlord role. He's never been, and maybe never expected to be, in a position of power and responsibility like that, and is taking it seriously.

[ftl]

Sure, I'll grant you that. Tramennis has good reasons for behaving the way he does.

But, at the end of the day, it's results that matter. If when all his said and done, all his fancy diplomacy does is get him croaked (or, at least, get him into another bad situation), where Slately's straightforward plan wouldn't have - I'd have a hard time agreeing that he's a good chief warlord, because ifs and buts (if only the world played out like he expected) are just excuses.

It's kind of funny. I don't recall anyone criticizing Parson when his plan was to speak with all the leaders of the coalition, to gather intelligence and to try to look for a wedge in the alliances. But now that Trem is doing the exact same thing, he seems to be getting nothing but flack. It's Jetstone's turn, they have the luxury, barring Kingworld, to set their own pace for the flow of the turn, how to position units, when to attack, and who to engage in parlay with. I really don't understand why anyone would think that looking to collect some intelligence before engaging in a combat that you think you can win hands down would be a bad thing.

We didn't give Parson flak for it, because it seemed like it was the right idea. Here, I give Tramennis flak for it because, knowing what we know (that Parson expects a parley), it seems like it's going to prove disastrous rather than helpful.

I'm hoping I'm wrong, because I do like Tramennis. I hope he ends up as a good CW. However, that's got to be measured by the results he brings - not by actions that seem reasonable but end up walking right into Parson's trap. We know that Parson expects a parley, and is going to spring some trap from it. Thus, it bothers me that the supposed 'smart' warlord is shown in the next panel proposing to walk right into it. As I say, I hope I'm wrong and Tramennis's parleys and diplomacy do end up helping them out. But the foreshadowing might just be going the other direction.