Book 2 – Page 38

[Fug]

The art in the last few updates has been absolutely fantastic! Still hard to wait for new updates though!

[slb]

We learn something very interesting here. Obviously people around someone receiving a thinkagram do not hear* (maybe do not see) what the remote caller is saying, in a similar way to a regular phone call on earth.

That again increase the likelihood that no one except Charlie is aware of the existence of Parson.

*except Charlie off course ^^

[Fug]

Maybe Charlie is talking to Don, not snooping in on Parson and Wanda.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Could you expound on this a bit? I am far from convinced that Charlie is a) omniscient, b) omnipotent or c) omnipresent.

So far Charlie has demonstrated good intelligence on Haggar, is known to have widespread operations and tight collaborations with the gossip mill that is the Magic Kingdom. If he/she/it doesn't know about X now, finding out is easy- and would be easier if hacking Thinkagrams were possible.

So that's omniscience covered. Not omniscient, but in practice, so.

Charlie can strong-arm Haggar with probably a few Archons. 600 are estimated to be at their disposal. Coupled with good intelligence (the above point) and the endless supply of abilities the archons have, as well as the possibility for uber-powerful caster links, we resolve the issue of omnipotence.

There is no evidence that Charlie is omnipresent, but I don't think ubiquity is a necessary attribute if you have the other two.

Limiting the number of Thinkagrams that can be eavesdropped on is hardly a limit. We know Charlie supports most of the communications of Erfworld, so the throughput of their networks is enormous. Presumably, that good hardware is capable to track ONE side that gives you problems. Charlie would even know that GK has one Thinkamancer, not Masterclass.

And the final argument, Charlie being stupid as all Erfworlders, I will not deign to respond to again. It's just ridiculous to assume that all Erfworlders, be they Charlie or not, are ignorant of the possibilities of warfare in their own Universe.

Maybe Charlie is talking to Don, not snooping in on Parson and Wanda.

Titans let this be true.

[justamessenger]

Maybe Charlie is talking to Don, not snooping in on Parson and Wanda.

Or some mercenary units, other clients, and maybe even another as-yet-unrevealed side. He must more clients than just those sides introduced to date, simply given that he is investing in the current scheme without any promise of schmuckers.

[DevilDan]

Much as I find thinkagram-tapping unlikely or at least dissatisfying, I disagree with what others said that Charlie doesn't know who would be sending the thinkagram or that it would be taking place: he knows Maggie probably (Charlie is an information broker and surely an investigator par excellence, and he could have found out a lot about Maggie from querying, say, MK casters after the end of book 1; he also knows her through his hacking of the eyebooks she helped create).

But I resent the implication that Charlie is eavesdropping on Parson's thinkagram.

Resent? Really? Don't let him get your goat. If anything, Rob's probably purposefully baiting us.

But on the other hand, it again confirms that Charlie can do ANYTHING. Which makes it more glaring when Charlescomm DOESN'T. Charlie had the abilities and resources to crush GK, in full view of any royal, at any time now.

If thinkagram-tapping is possible, we don't know what the cost might be, or under what conditions it might be done. We do know that it wouldn't be smart for Charlie to ever have anyone else find out about it. You don't give away the fact that you can crack an enemy's communications. More importantly, to have royals know that he can hack thinkagrams paints a Titan-sized bullseye on Charlescomm.

In fact, it's becoming less believable that GK was ever a threat! Why, their expedition at Jetstone was made up of a ground column, easily mopped up, while the Dwagon fleet was always assumed doomed under Jetstone.

The column was only for support after Spacerock's fall. It was weak because the dwagon fleet was so strong, strong enough to take GK even with its casters and even after the added surprise of the Faq fleet. But it doesn't matter how powerful the fleet is when it's stuck in Spacerock's airspace.

And with Charlie capable to stop turns, and read minds, GK should never have got off the ground.

Why sell a turn's worth of services (and tip his hand, and make himself a target), if he can sell services over many more turns? Charlie isn't the most ethical operator, and we know he knows that the more problems his potential clients have, the more he can make.

[justamessenger]

And the final argument, Charlie being stupid as all Erfworlders, I will not deign to respond to again. It's just ridiculous to assume that all Erfworlders, be they Charlie or not, are ignorant of the possibilities of warfare in their own Universe.

I am not implying that Charlie is stupid, but rather that I do not recall any evidence of Charlie introducing any new tactics onto the battlefield. He may be insightful and is definitely highly intelligent and willing to learn and incorporate new information, strategies and ideas, but that does not address the simple matter of not knowing what one does not know. If someone does not see the cheats how can they understand, anticipate or implement them? Again, not attributing stupidity, but rather ignorance in the face of information he has not been exposed to.

[effataigus]

Awesome! Art and content!

This is definitely ambiguous, but it sure seems to imply that Charlie can eavesdrop on conversations. What a crazy good power that is! That said, I disagree with BLAND that this makes Charlie that much more powerful from the reader's perspective. This takes all of Charlie's random powers and unites them into a few understandable powers (well, except for whatever he is doing with natural allies assuming that's not just him contacting them and being persuasive). Not just understandable, but, once found out, avoidable. If word got out that he could tap into thinkagrams... the arkendish would be little more than a thinkamancer with a lot of juice that can form long range links (unless there's more to it we don't know, of course). No wonder he can't afford to be directly involved in fights... people would figure it out pretty quickly if his armies always reacted appropriately to intel gathered from their thinkagrams.

If so, no wonder he values his secrets so much.

That said, can he afford to give Faq or Jetstone the information he seems to have just gathered? They'd have a reasonable shot of figuring it out at that point.

Also, does he even want to? Or would he rather just sweep in on whichever side survives the night and capture the pliers and whatever else can be salvaged (before GK gets another turn). Jillian is looking like one of the few things that could stop this from being easy for him... and only if she figures it out before the end of her turn. It's definitely in her interests to keep the pliers away from Charlie... who knows what that would do to Ansom. And since I hate to mention Jillian in a neutral or positive light... FIE, FIE on JILLIAN.

Unoriginal Tinfoil Hat time!:

Charlie definitely did some monkey business with Saline, Wanda, Stanley, and Banhammer. Perhaps there is a fate/luckamancy arkentool that messed things up by popping the extra dwagons?.. I forgot who had the predictamancer theory, but I like it. Heck, that crystal ball in the middle of the predictamancer's tent looked glowy enough to be something special.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Resent? Really? Don't let him get your goat. If anything, Rob's probably purposefully baiting us. {with the Thinka-hacking}

Bait successful, judging by the first few replies in this thread. And that's what I'm responding to.

If thinkagram-tapping is possible, we don't know what the cost might be, or under what conditions it might be done. We do know that it wouldn't be smart for Charlie to ever have anyone else find out about it. You don't give away the fact that you can crack an enemy's communications. More importantly, to have royals know that he can hack thinkagrams paints a Titan-sized bullseye on Charlescomm.

Great, let's start the debate on that spell that never happened again, that debate about whether it's better to be upfront about magic rules (or not use magic), or whether it's ok to make stuff up as you go along.

But let's not, and I'll just say that whatever the cost of hacking may be, it should be pretty steep to prevent Charlie from savouring the lives of others in GK. They (GK) have very limited Thinkagram capacity.

Finally, when I say Charlescomm could have done something, use imagination. I'm not asking for Charlie to descend from on high in all their radiance and show the Royals what Charlescomm can do. But providing timely assistance to a possible customer about to be wiped out, while also securing some good will from other royals, definitely possible. And very Charlie-like.

I mean, Charlie supposedly is hurting for not being able to sell services to Royal sides. So future business is NOT the reason they didn't crush GK. Also, crushing GK merely reverts things to the old status quo, which was good enough for Charlie.

So, why didn't Charlie pull a save for Unaroyal, why didn't Charlie crush GK, how come no serious effort to show at least to sides that are not Jetstone that Charlescomm is safe to do business with?

[JustDoug]

Awesome update, as always. Art is really top-notch. I note that although Parson's clothes changed to a Roger-Wilco-esque uniform when he spoke to Charlie in book 1, the royals don't seem to have to endure that indignity. Makes me wonder if the uniform Parson was deposited in to was some deliberate jab from Charlie. Or maybe royals just get better treatment due to their status.

I believe that the uniform and setting during the "conversation" with Charlie in book one was a reference to "Mork and Mindy," when Mork would communicate with Orson at the end-of-show, wrapping up the episode. http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=sdz4dCMGbbw(YouTube reference).

I also could be wrong- but this looks more like a case of vintage, pre-internet cultrural references not always aging well.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I am not implying that Charlie is stupid, but rather that I do not recall any evidence of Charlie introducing any new tactics onto the battlefield.

I was going to correct you. But my official position is that a certain spell never happened.

EDIT:

effataigus provides me with an example I can stomach, which is Natural Ally realignments (remember, Duncan was impressed by Jillian's skill ... cough ... to pull that feat of diplomacy/negociation off).

(A nitpick in that Natural Ally realignment is not a typical thing associated with tactics. But it's a way to win a battle, it was new to someone on the field at the time, it fits.)

But yeah, that's more proof for Charlie's inflated powers.

[the_tick_rules]

Is it me or is Parson starting to look more stressed and tired? I mean in a being drawn aspect.

[CelebrenIthil]

...interesting choice of paintings...
What's in panel 6, storm clouds over a beach? *squints*

[justamessenger]

I was going to correct you. But my official position is that a certain spell never happened.

Are you referring to Vanna's turn ending spell? That *may* have been powered by Charlie, but it seems to me that it might not be original. Original to the storyline yes, but are we certain that it hasn't been implemented before? Jillian, at least, did not seem to be surprised by it in the slightest. Then again, she may have learned of it 'off camera' beforehand.

[BLANDCorporatio]

That *may* have been powered by Charlie, but it seems to me that it might not be original.

"Nothing new under the sun", eh? Great, I conjecture then that nothing Parson did was new either and we're even! But also, if that spell that didn't happen, would have happened on other occasions too, why didn't it for, say, Unaroyal? Or any other time, really?

EDIT:

Let's say, because conditions were not right. They were not right because nobody thought to plan for them. But why, if this option existed and was known, was it not used? Unaroyal would still be around, Charlie would have been in the Royals' good graces, GK would be dust and Erfworld would chug on as usual, with everybody paying through the nose for Charlie contracts.

[Vorteks]

I believe that the uniform and setting during the "conversation" with Charlie in book one was a reference to "Mork and Mindy," when Mork would communicate with Orson at the end-of-show, wrapping up the episode. http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=sdz4dCMGbbw(YouTube reference).

I also could be wrong- but this looks more like a case of vintage, pre-internet cultrural references not always aging well.

Fascinating. I had never heard of "Mork and Mindy". I equated it as a reference to the PC game "Space Quest 6": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci9dZNAq5hQ (reference starting at about 1:00). Although it now looks to me like that scene in Space Quest 6 may itself have been a reference to Mork and Mindy.

[cloudbreaker]

Spoiler: show

They are so going in through the atrium.

[DevilDan]

Finally, when I say Charlescomm could have done something, use imagination. I'm not asking for Charlie to descend from on high in all their radiance and show the Royals what Charlescomm can do. But providing timely assistance to a possible customer about to be wiped out, while also securing some good will from other royals, definitely possible. And very Charlie-like.

I mean, Charlie supposedly is hurting for not being able to sell services to Royal sides. So future business is NOT the reason they didn't crush GK. Also, crushing GK merely reverts things to the old status quo, which was good enough for Charlie.

So, why didn't Charlie pull a save for Unaroyal, why didn't Charlie crush GK, how come no serious effort to show at least to sides that are not Jetstone that Charlescomm is safe to do business with?

Charlie doesn't move too early just because he can. He used Kingworld at exactly the right time, and not a turn sooner. Stopping a massive ground force would have been of only so much use. Freezing a large mass of GK units--including its all-important, tool-wielding master croakamancer--in Spacerock's airspace, on the other hand, is a coup of the first order.

To use Kingsworld, Charlie needed to have a thinkamancer in position, a difficult endeavor when every other royal side save Faq had been cajoled, threatened, scared, or ordered into not even taking a call from Charlie. Ditto for anything else Charlie might have had to offer Queen Bea.

Jillian, at least, did not seem to be surprised by it in the slightest. Then again, she may have learned of it 'off camera' beforehand.

Considering she specifically asks Vanna--or rather, Charlie--to do the "time warp"...

[BLANDCorporatio]

Charlie doesn't move too early just because he can. He used Kingworld at exactly the right time, and not a turn sooner.

And a supposed intervantion at Unaroyal would have been bad because why? Wanda was there with the Pliers. Back then there was no Dwagon harvesting I think, and that was mostly a ground column. Easy picking for a group of Archons. Out of 600, if you can send enough to threaten a capital, you can probably send enough to make life hell for that column (GK still didn't seem well equipped in the archer department btw).

And speaking of the Dwagon harvesting, Charlie could have put some clamps on that too; we assume the Gobwins going away is C's handiwork, what's a few Dwagons?

[Nihila]

What I can say is that if Charlie can eavesdrop on Thinkagrams, the cost had better be obscenely high. Like, "seven-eighths chance of going insane" high. Or "one-half chance of croaking" high. Not some pathetic little "Please hold for Charlie" not high.