Book 2 – Text Updates 029

[Smoker]

Limitations obviously imposed by user inadequacy can't really be held against the tool itself.

Heh. User inadequacy is exactly the angle I'm looking at it from. Since the tools only attune to specific people, I'm putting forward the point of view that functionally the hammer is only as good as its weilder. I fully agree that in the hands of someone with a brain, who was able to go into combat without risking his entire side, the hammer could be erf-shattering. I also fully agree that Parson came up with a great way to farm dragons, and if it was ever an option Stanley could have hired out dwagons as well, but since the hammer was silly enough (or unfortunate enough) to attune to Stanley, it was boxed in.

Also agree that in the early days Stanley was doing reasonably well with the hammer, although still not living up to its potential as neither of the two ideas above (one Parson's and one yours) were never actioned. Since becoming Overlord he's done even less with it.

So yeah its just a point of view of: if tool = powers + attuned weilder, then hammer < dish or pliers.

If one considers the tool as simply a product of its powers, then I would be prepared to assume they are all more or less equal.

Having said that:

When I suggested a battle between Wanda and Stanley, I meant simply them, their tools and their tool-controlled units, so not including Maggie or Sizemore or anyone else. If there was just an empty field of hexes with Wanda, the pliers and her decrypted at one end and Stanley, the hammer and the dwagons at the other.. I would very hesitantly put my money on Wanda. Like you say, the fact that Stanley was doing well as CW tell us that the hammer can be awesome, but there are a lot of units in the decrypted army, with at least a decent handful being of high quality.

[splintermute]

"For use by non-royals only" excludes some very important factors from the Occam's razor equation - namely, that attunement to an Arkentool is widely regarded as a rare and prominent occurrence, enough so that Stanley uses it as proof of HIS Titanic Mandate, and that the Arkenpliers couldn't find a master for so long. If ANY non-Royal unit automatically attuned to ANY Arkentool, this would undoubtadly be mentioned in the comic, and the entire attitude towards Arkentools would have been different. As an example off the top of my head, the Hobgoblin Knights could simply croak Stanley like they did Saline, and take the Arkenhammer, thus becoming an extremely powerful and fearsome Tribe. And don't tell me Wanda wouldn't have killed Stanley in his sleep after one of their nookie sessions if she had any hope of attuning to the Arkenhammer. Not to mention that the Arkentools would have always been at the centre of great wars and their powers would have continuously shaped Erfworld history; whereas in the comic, the Tools' powers come either as a total surprise (Decryption), a closely guarded secret (Arkendish), or are simply unknown (Arkenhammer's implied potential, the mystery fourth tool).

So, on the contrary, the simplest explanation is that there are indeed very few people who can Attune, and once a Tool has found its Master, there is very little hope that another person in the immediate vicinity could also attune to it. Maybe in some generations, or a "Special" case like Parson. However, on the examples of Ansom, Wanda, Sylvia and Ossomer we see how varied the reactions to the same Arkentool may be - from total neglect (Ossomer) to reverence (Ansom) to understanding of potential (Sylvia) to realisation of said potential on a grand scale (Wanda). Sylvia is a border case here; she may have attuned without fully understanding it, and simply didn't have a chance to start using the Pliers; or she may indeed have simply been a more "sensitive soul" than Ansom or Ossomer. Either way, her case decidedly blurs the "attuned/non-attuned" border and may evidence against the concept of "One Chosen in a generation". Likely, things are more complex.

Occam's razor warns against the unnecessary multiplication of entities - the whole point of the Occam's razor equation is to exclude unnecessary factors, no matter how important they may seem. "For non-royal use only" requires only 4 entities: Arkentools, royals, nobles, commoners. Your idea (which may or may not be correct) requires: Arkentools, attuned, potential attuned, "sensitives" (like Sylvia), the Titanic mandate (you seem to be assuming the Titans left the tools behind intentionally), the intentions of the Arkentools themselves, Fate (?), etc.

The counterexamples that you provided assume that everyone is aware that the tools are "for non-royal use only." But if no one knows about the "for non-royal use" clause, the viewpoints aren't inconsistent: attunement is considered rare because once someone "attunes" to an Arkentool, who's going to be powerful enough to take it away from him/her? People will just naturally assume the tool "belongs" to him/her; the pliers were masterless for ages because Jetstone only let royals play with them; the Hobgobwins and Wanda would only consider betraying Stanley if they knew that the hammer was up for grabs - if they didn't know, if they believed, like everyone else, that the attuned were "special" and "sacred", they would be idiots to risk incurring the wrath of Stanley the Mighty; and perhaps the Arkentools have been at the centre of Erfworld history (we don't know that much about Erfworld history), or perhaps they were hidden away, and only recently uncovered (we don't know where Stanley or Charlie found their tools), or kept in a vault out of the hands of the non-royals who could potentially use them, like the pliers were.

I secretly hope that, for narrative purposes, your idea is correct and there is something rare and special and interesting about attunement, but I also think it would be hilarious if, after giving Parson a chance to experiment, he finds out that it all really boils down to "for non-royal use only."

[Shinsei]

OK, first tinfoil hat theory. And probably it already exists somewhere else among the other thousands of posts.

Parson is a titan.

Possibly the arkentools are what he used to make his gameboard, or one of them is a tool he used, and the other tools come from other makers of similar games. He may well have needed pliers; the Dish could have brought him television while he built the board. Hammer, I got nothin'. He is weaker here because he is a power incarnated, like Gandalf, or like Tron (who as I've posted before, seems a close parallel to Parson).

I know this contradicts the Elvises, as well as lots of other things, but what is the internet for if not typing whatever comes into your head?

Actually, I'd be more inclined to say Parson himself is the fourth, unknown Arkentool. Certainly powerful enough, was part of forming the game, and Sylvia's description of similar powers was interesting. Anyhoo, we'll see.

[ftl]

Occam's razor warns against the unnecessary multiplication of entities - the whole point of the Occam's razor equation is to exclude unnecessary factors, no matter how important they may seem. "For non-royal use only" requires only 4 entities: Arkentools, royals, nobles, commoners. Your idea (which may or may not be correct) requires: Arkentools, attuned, potential attuned, "sensitives" (like Sylvia), the Titanic mandate (you seem to be assuming the Titans left the tools behind intentionally), the intentions of the Arkentools themselves, Fate (?), etc.

I don't see that the alternative requires all these entities.

I'll start with what is known:

Attunement is very rare, and no erflings know the pattern for how to attune, or even if there is a pattern.
The erflings that have attuned are: Stanley, Wanda, Charlie. The erflings who have felt something unusual: Sylvia, possibly Ansom. The erflings who have felt nothing - Ossomer.

The problem, in my mind, with the theory that 'all commoners could attune' is that there's simply so *many* commoners around, it would be hard for this sort of knowledge to stay secret. Jetstone princes don't have a long lifespan, the pliers are often used at the front line, and yet no commoner ever attuned - not somebody who was fighting against a Jetstone prince and touched the pliers, not a soldier bringing the pliers to a different warlord once the prince croaked, never.

The simpler answer, in my mind, is that there *is* no pattern. It's like a Chosen One in any sort of story - it's luck or fate or whatever you want to call it, or will of the titans, or will of the tools themselves. Effectively random and, importantly, quite rare. The social status theory requires extra explanations for why attunement is so rare if nearly everybody in erf (except for nobles/royals) can attune.

[Athiesh]

An interesting thing about this update:

Who was it that croaked Ossomer to begin with?

Tinfoil Hat Area:

Spoiler: show

Regarding Parson being a level 2 CWL. He didn't croak when going to MK so is it possible that Special could refer to his potential caster powers? I like the theory that he is a Natural Signamancer. Maybe he doesn't break rules by finding exploits, he can use signamancy to fill in the "blank" spaces in the rules of Erf.

[splintermute]

I don't see that the alternative requires all these entities.

I'll start with what is known:

Attunement is very rare, and no erflings know the pattern for how to attune, or even if there is a pattern.
The erflings that have attuned are: Stanley, Wanda, Charlie. The erflings who have felt something unusual: Sylvia, possibly Ansom. The erflings who have felt nothing - Ossomer.

The problem, in my mind, with the theory that 'all commoners could attune' is that there's simply so *many* commoners around, it would be hard for this sort of knowledge to stay secret. Jetstone princes don't have a long lifespan, the pliers are often used at the front line, and yet no commoner ever attuned - not somebody who was fighting against a Jetstone prince and touched the pliers, not a soldier bringing the pliers to a different warlord once the prince croaked, never.

The simpler answer, in my mind, is that there *is* no pattern. It's like a Chosen One in any sort of story - it's luck or fate or whatever you want to call it, or will of the titans, or will of the tools themselves. Effectively random and, importantly, quite rare. The social status theory requires extra explanations for why attunement is so rare if nearly everybody in erf (except for nobles/royals) can attune.

The problem is, based on the concrete examples you've given: "The erflings that have attuned are: Stanley, Wanda, Charlie. The erflings who have felt something unusual: Sylvia, possibly Ansom. The erflings who have felt nothing - Ossomer" - there is a pattern, until we can conclusively assert that Ansom is a "definitely" rather than a "definitely not." I'm inclined to think Ansom is a "not" - he saw the pliers as a useful weapon against uncroaked, but he also definitely knew that he was not attuned - how would he know what attunement felt like? If he felt something, anything, from the pliers, I could see him easily mistaking it for attunement.

Yes, attunement is rare, and yes, there are *many* commoners around, but how many of them have had access to the Arkentools? There are *few* Arkentools around, and for all we know, they could all have just been buried deep in the Erf until a few hundred turns ago.

I don't think the pliers got out as much as you think they did:
"Here came this beast to his city walls, to his chamber door. Here returned the Arkenpliers to the city which had so long kept them truly and well.
...
When he had allowed his son to take the Arkenpliers into battle, he had hoped the Prince would prove his mettle, that the Titans would allow Ansom to master their artifact. He did not expect this result, this opposite, this truth."

That suggests the princes of Jetstone required special permission to take the pliers into battle - Slately probably only permitted Ansom to take it to tBfGK because he knew they would be fighting uncroaked, and the pliers were a particularly effective weapon against them.

That's not to say you're wrong - it's just that until we see a definite in-comic example of a non-royal picking up an Arkentool and not attuning, or a royal attuning, the "for non-royal use only" hypothesis is just as valid as the "Chosen One" hypothesis.

The "for non-royal use only" theory could also explain some currently unanswered questions - why would the hammer "choose" an idiot like Stanley? Why was Charlie willing to risk so much at tBfGK to acquire the pliers (i.e. does he know, or suspect, something that the rest of Erf doesn't)?

[Smoker]

Only people that live on mountains attune.

[splintermute]

Only people that live on mountains attune.

I like this theory better - it reduces the requisite entities to: Arkentools, mountainmen/women, non-mountainmen.

(Maybe Sylvia was popped in the foothills, or maybe she attuned fully, and attunement can only take place in mountain hexes)

[robak]

CURSE YOU, OCCAM!!!

[Sonic Screwdriver]

Ossomer's description of his time holding the Arkenpliers and the juxtaposition of Sylvia's reverence of feeling the Fate within it and the presence of Parson remind me of an early page: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/013.jpg

Here, we have Sizemore holding a scroll with Fate magic in it, ascribing a pulsing quality without any kind of awe to the sensation. There's an obvious similarity between the two things Wanda states as powered by Fate magic, especially in comparison to others who feel the magic without getting all poetic.

My vote is that Wanda and Sylvia are just being overly-dramatic with the sensations they're experiencing in regards to Fate magic.

[Lamech]

The problem, in my mind, with the theory that 'all commoners could attune' is that there's simply so *many* commoners around, it would be hard for this sort of knowledge to stay secret. Jetstone princes don't have a long lifespan, the pliers are often used at the front line, and yet no commoner ever attuned - not somebody who was fighting against a Jetstone prince and touched the pliers, not a soldier bringing the pliers to a different warlord once the prince croaked, never.

The simpler answer, in my mind, is that there *is* no pattern. It's like a Chosen One in any sort of story - it's luck or fate or whatever you want to call it, or will of the titans, or will of the tools themselves. Effectively random and, importantly, quite rare. The social status theory requires extra explanations for why attunement is so rare if nearly everybody in erf (except for nobles/royals) can attune.

Are they frequently deployed to the front lines? Or are they only used when you might find yourself really needing the bonus, and dealing with nasty uncroaked? If Wanda can throw up uncroaked stronger than your forces you lose. And the ablity to quickly destroy the uncroaked came in handy on multiple occasions. Seems like the battle of GK was the ideal situation to deploy them in.

Now you ask why would attunement be "rare". Well lets look at the three arkentools we know about: The hammer was attuned as soon as it was found. We know nothing about the dish and we have no idea if a non-noble touched the pliers before Wanda. Ansom obviously fought in a bunch of battles, so he must have survived for a good while, he and his brothers may have been the only ones to wield it. Also why are you calling attunement "rare"? Every know tool has attuned and not left its attuned wielder. Three attunements is the highest possible number we could have.

[metametadata]

So, my money's on the idea that Tools are there to give Erflings the means to change the world. Attunement is a more delicate issue; I doubt there is any form of "conscious" selection (they are Tools, not Titans themselves) or "Fated" predetermination (see above). It seems more probable that each Tool seeks certain qualities, and there's at least one quality common to all of the Wielders - the desire to change the world (be it through brutal conquest like Stanley, through mass Decryption like Wanda, through long-term, global scheming like Charlie, or - hypothetically - through destruction like Sylvia). I wonder if people like Janis or Sizemore will ever get their hands on a Tool, and what that would lead to.

/banal rant end

If we could actually start testing hypotheses about Arkentool attunement, I would start with these: "Only those with the desire/capacity to change Erfworld can attune to an Arkentool." Seems the simplest answer to me. You don't have to involve the Erfworld caste system and game balancing or explain why special individuals are chosen to play grand roles in Erfworld affairs. Anyone can attune who wants/can use the tools for their intended purpose. If either of these hypotheses were proven true, I think that Sylvia's experience with the Arkenpliers would count as attunement.

I also would love to test the hypothesis that Parson is a Titan.

[splintermute]

If we could actually start testing hypotheses about Arkentool attunement, I would start with these: "Only those with the desire/capacity to change Erfworld can attune to an Arkentool." Seems the simplest answer to me. You don't have to involve the Erfworld caste system and game balancing or explain why special individuals are chosen to play grand roles in Erfworld affairs. Anyone can attune who wants/can use the tools for their intended purpose. If either of these hypotheses were proven true, I think that Sylvia's experience with the Arkenpliers would count as attunement.

I also would love to test the hypothesis that Parson is a Titan.

I think everyone on some slight level wants to change Erfworld ("desire") - I wouldn't necessarily ascribe ambitions that complex or expansive to Stanley. I think he's grown into his position. He may have been an extraordinary fighter, but in the early days he probably wasn't that much deeper than Wrigley. If desire for change were sufficient, then the pliers should have attuned to Tramennis ages ago.

As for "capacity", that's circular reasoning - attunement to an Arkentool automatically gives you the capacity to change Erfworld. If you required some independent capacity without an Arkentool, Parson would be the only one able to attune.

[Welf von Ehrwald]

I'd say that Ansom was only worried that another brother would attune. After all, any brother who attuned would probably be promoted to Chief Warlord, so the ritual was a risk to Ansom.

Unlikely; Ansom looked worried when Ossomer gave the Pliers back and it was apparent that he didn't attune.

Just a note on the theory that only commoners can attune: what about Wanda? Casters are warlords that randomly pop with magic abilities. And if possible, warlords are probably always popped as nobles. So are casters nobles? Or are they commoners? Not that we have any indication if Wanda was originally intended to pop as noble warlord or not.

[Undead Prince]

Just a note on the theory that only commoners can attune: what about Wanda? Casters are warlords that randomly pop with magic abilities. And if possible, warlords are probably always popped as nobles. So are casters nobles? Or are they commoners? Not that we have any indication if Wanda was originally intended to pop as noble warlord or not.

1) Casters are manifestly not Warlords (emphasized repeatedly in the comic), though they are Commanders;

2) Nobility or Royalty of a unit is apparently determined as part of the decision to pop the unit; only Royal cities may pop Royals and Nobles (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079a.jpg). Units can be promoted through different levels of Nobility (e.g. how they do it in Transylvito), but it's probably impossible to turn a commoner unit into a Noble or Royal;

3) Wanda's original side - FAQ - was Royal. Jack had a title there ("Knave") and was treated by Wanda as a social inferior despite them both being casters (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-01-19.png). This implies that Wanda is a Noble. But it's not 100% conclusive since she may have come to Faq from somewhere else, and faked Nobility to secure higher social standing.

[gaiaswill]

Wanda's original side - FAQ - was Royal. Jack had a title there ("Knave") and was treated by Wanda as a social inferior despite them both being casters (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-01-19.png). This implies that Wanda is a Noble.

That's a really good catch, I must say. Perhaps nobility bonus is why Jack and Wanda are master and Maggie is only adept?

2) Nobility or Royalty of a unit is apparently determined as part of the decision to pop the unit; only Royal cities may pop Royals and Nobles (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079a.jpg). Units can be promoted through different levels of Nobility (e.g. how they do it in Transylvito), but it's probably impossible to turn a commoner unit into a Noble or Royal

I'm thinking how nobility and royalty classically works in a monarchy to be a possible model. Royalty is defined by their bloodline. But nobility is more flexible. A distinguished commoner could be promoted to noble (however rare). Lower ranked nobles can become higher ranked ones as well. But even the highest noble is still not royal and never will be. This could be why Don is so keen on replacing Caesar; he doesn't want Transylvito to be led by an Overlord.

Real life is not quite so simple of course--there's marriage and a distinct lack of leveling. But for the gamelike Erfworld, perhaps this is a decent starting point.

[splintermute]

Knave isn't a title - it means a servant or a liar/scoundrel (I'm leaning towards liar/scoundrel, since he's a Foolamancer and that's what he does for a living), and is an alternate name for a Jack in a deck of cards (see e.g. "The Knave of Hearts, he stole some tarts ..." from Alice in Wonderland). Wanda may have a noble title (Lady), or she may be treated as a noble because she's the Princess' official consort, or she may just naturally be a haughty and arrogant bitch.

I like the idea of regular warlords sometimes popping as regular casters, and noble warlords sometimes popping as master-class casters. It's been discussed before.

[Hiai]

With much of the discussion veering off into "nature and power of the TitanTools" theories, I thought I would throw in my thoughts.

First off, I think the "which Tool is more powerful" speculation is pointless. It is highly likely, as has been mentioned by others, that the "actual power" of each Tool is equal to any of the others, and the differences seen are due solely to each individual wielder. That aside, though, even taking the wielder effectiveness question out of the calculation, one has to consider the nature of the fact that they are TOOLS.

Which is to say, that, like tools on earth, one will always be more effective in any given situation, while others would be less useful or even entirely useless. Take, for instance, the nature of a hammer on earth. It would be the very first thing you would grab if you wanted to pound a nail into a board, or in some other way apply kinetic force directly against another object. What you wouldn't do, is grab a satellite dish and try to pound two boards together. Likewise, if you wanted to communicate, you would be fiddling with your satellite dish and the hammer would be completely useless (ok, maybe in the mounting thereof, but not in the actual use).

You get my point. The Titan's Tools powers directly correlate to the nature of what kind of tool they are, and are therefore the "best tool for the job" IF it's a job relating to their nature, and highly ineffective if it's a job that does not relate. That being said, one might argue "which type of tool is most effective for warfare?", as that is the state of Erf as we see it here. However, given the chaotic nature of warfare and the obvious need for flexibility in all ways, it still remains a futile argument.

Let's look to particular primary, non-unit-related powers of the Tools that have been so far revealed. Start with the Arkendish: as can be expected, it is a Tool that excels in the field of long-distance communication. On Erf, this naturally manifests as proficiency with all Thinkamancy-related powers, since Thinkamancy is the primary means of long-distance communication used (always going by what we have actually seen in-comic, of course TFH theories are excluded). Anyone familiar with warfare, either modern or historically, can attest to the importance of communication when waging war. However, it is still only one important facet.

The Arkenhammer has manifestly shown to be, as might be expected, extremely effective in applying brute force to the situation. It's primary main ability seems to be the lightning attack. Anyone who argues that being able to direct a strike of lightning upon your enemy at will is less powerful than being able to communicate is getting involved in war-theory-craft, not Tool analysis, and must not apply to this case.

The Arkenpliers are a difficult case to analyze, as one might expect from a versatile grabbing tool. So far, both in terms of unit power and in terms of incidentals, this seems very obviously powerful, but tell me...what is it's primary, non-unitary power? The obvious answer is "raise units from the dead without upkeep", which certainly would fall in line with the pliers use of "holding and grabbing things", but can we consider that the non-unitary power? It seems to boost Croakamancy in the way that the Arkendish boosts Thinkamancy, but does it have any other primary affects? For that matter, does the Arkendish?

Perhaps, in keeping with Tool nature, the Hammer is the only one with a "direct attack", since a hammer is about as direct as you can get. The other two known Tools are meant to affect things around them a bit more indirectly, so perhaps this "booster effect" IS their main effect.

Now in regards to Tool units, all units eem to echo the nature of the Tools, as well. The Hammer's units, dwagons, can quite plausibly be pointed to as examples of units that are best at applying direct force, something in keeping with the hammer's nature. The Archons excel in magic that is primarily communication-based, going so far as to rely on constant direction from the wielder. The decrypted, well...that's an obvious one.

While each Tool seems to excel in a particular TYPE of warfare, all of them seem to be quite capable at warfare in general. People have been speculating that the wielders are the true limitations of each Tool, and I would concur only in the sense that it is up to the wielder to think of ways to apply the Tool's nature in unconventional ways to bring about the effects they desire. The excellence at their field seems not to be diminished in any way (otherwise you know that Stanley would never be able to do anything).

Going slightly further, into the speculations of "who can attune an arkentool?" debate, I will say only this:
I think that anyone CAN attune to an Arkentool. These things people are speculating about royal/nonroyal, etc. seem to be pointless hogwash. Those who attune to an Arkentool do so because the Arkentool LIKES them. It is clear they are sentient and it is stated that the Hammer likes Stanley. And why not? Stanley is a very direct sort of guy, and would thus appeal to the Hammer's personality, so the Hammer met him and decided to attune. What is so complicated? Why do we choose the friends/mates we do?
It is always about compatibility. I would say that the Tools chose the same way..they met someone who thinks the same way they do, and so they understood them. So, they chose to attune. No speculations on the "rules" needed, it comes down to the choices that sentient beings make, no more, no less.

[Ansan Gotti]

Fantastic post, Hiai!

[Squishalot]

1) It wasn't the hammer that saved Stanley, it was Jack. Stanley only knocked back Caesar, and that night (before Caesar healed) he didn't even look injured. (I didn't check this, but thats how I remember it)

Slightly offtopic, but consider:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F113.jpg - Stanley takes out 29 bats (and with bonuses, they are considered as tough as heavies) and leaves Caesar hanging motionless in mid-air (you can see him slumped over in the background in the 7th frame).

He also looks a bit charred up the next time we see him: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F115.jpg

The night picture is just an inconsistency in the art at the time.