The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Nihila » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:06 pm

For the ease of those wishing to object more, I will compile a list of outright mistakes, objectionable content, and simple questions regarding the last turn.
Mistakes
A) In the hex Hisgeng entered, there are three stacks, not one, so he could only have engaged one of those.
---A1) Also, as units entering hexes with enemy units must engage, Hisgeng cannot advance into Gobwin Bump.
B) The attack order for Lokarat and Daigo is simply messed up.
---B1) If Lokarat has not had his stats changed, he is croaked.
---B2) If Lokarat is croaked, Daigo may or may not have his Leadership Bonus at 1 rather than 2.
C) The item of interest is not claimed yet.
D) Commanders cannot have more than 6 Hits.
E) Lokarat popped his units... somewhere.

Objections
A) Lokarat got his stats suddenly changed.
B) The random seeds are rather seedy, as the odds of the 95% then 90% comes out at about 1/216 chance, certainly suspicious.
C) Gobwin Bump got somewhere between 1188 and 1243 points over the last two turns, depending on how much it costs to upgrade units.

Questions
A) Is Lokarat the new Chief Warlord?
---A1) In the (unlikely) event that Lokarat is not, how is he Level 7? (I am simply working off of the assumption that Lokarat is Chief Warlord.)
B) How does capture and turning work?
---B1) Can we have casters now?
C) What levels are Hisgeng and Daigo?
D) Why can we now upgrade units?
---D1) Wait, can we upgrade units?
---D2) How much does it cost to upgrade units?
E) Can we just pop our units somewhere, instead of at a pesky base camp?
F) Does the last GB turn posted even count, given the 19 other points collected here?

I will be PM'ing most of this post to LT Dave.
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:43 pm

WTB!?!?!

I note that we don't have ANY reinforcement points - is this an omission, or on purpose?

If we can randomly start converting/upgrading units, we should have a swarm of Mists charge forward and turn into Huwwicanes. :D I'm hoping this is indeed Foolamancy or something...
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Nihila » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:23 pm

I'm surprised that no-one's making a big deal about the fact that Lokarat seems to be popping units at his location. So, when we get our 1000 pop points, we pop 25 Demonowiths inside Gobwin Bump!

And we'll upgrade all Kanite Militants to those Rocket Infantry, make the Dwawves all Siege Tanks, etc., etc.

More seriously, I think BLAND gets PM'ed the pop point number, so we'll have to wait for just a bit longer.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:30 am

Nihila wrote:I'm surprised that no-one's making a big deal about the fact that Lokarat seems to be popping units at his location.


I suspect he's popping them from a new base camp location. Though that does the raise the question, can we also relocate our base camps to bring it closer to Gobwin Bump.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Azgrut » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:05 am

A few questions I can answer. The rest is something I let to Dave.

For the ease of those wishing to object more, I will compile a list of outright mistakes, objectionable content, and simple questions regarding the last turn.
Mistakes
A) In the hex Hisgeng entered, there are three stacks, not one, so he could only have engaged one of those.


I am ultimaltely sorry. I thought they were stacked as one full stack

[quoteB) The attack order for Lokarat and Daigo is simply messed up.

---B2) If Lokarat is croaked, Daigo may or may not have his Leadership Bonus at 1 rather than 2.[/quote]

Daigo is a level 2. I have forgotten to add a +1 level for the chief warlord bonus.


E) Lokarat popped his units... somewhere.

indeed



Questions
A) Is Lokarat the new Chief Warlord?


Yes

C) What levels are Hisgeng and Daigo?

3 and 2

And please... take a less hostile tone.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:37 am

Azgrut wrote:A few questions I can answer. The rest is something I let to Dave.

For the ease of those wishing to object more, I will compile a list of outright mistakes, objectionable content, and simple questions regarding the last turn.
Mistakes
A) In the hex Hisgeng entered, there are three stacks, not one, so he could only have engaged one of those.


I am ultimaltely sorry. I thought they were stacked as one full stack


There are lot of units and a lot of stacks it's not an unreasonably mistake to make. There are still questions about what Hisgeng can do after the attack in terms of movement according to the rules.

Azgrut wrote:
B) The attack order for Lokarat and Daigo is simply messed up.

---B2) If Lokarat is croaked, Daigo may or may not have his Leadership Bonus at 1 rather than 2.


Daigo is a level 2. I have forgotten to add a +1 level for the chief warlord bonus.


Lokarat is dead and has to attack first, so actually not including the +1 is correct.

Azgrut wrote:
E) Lokarat popped his units... somewhere.

indeed


This is a major issue. The ability for one side to create new base camps is not covered by the rules, and changes the dynamics of the game severely.

Azgrut wrote:
Questions
A) Is Lokarat the new Chief Warlord?


Yes


He was, until he died :D

Azgrut wrote:
C) What levels are Hisgeng and Daigo?

3 and 2


Thanks for this.

Azgrut wrote:And please... take a less hostile tone.


Apologies, but please understand. We just received a turn update when it appears that you and LT_Dave have effectively cheated repeatedly or at at least change the rules severely during your own turn in a way that heavily favours your side. When coupled with the mistakes (Hiseng's attack and movement, the Diago-Lokarat attack order, forgetting that you don't get to assign damage when the defending stack has a Warlord in it) it's not surprising the reaction has been to find it incredulous. There's also the major inbalance in popping points.

The thing it's been a fun game, it has it flaws, and we'd all hate to see it end with a massive GM fudge. Here's the thing if these issues aren't addressed reasonably there's no point continuing the game. Which is a shame because I joined these forums just to play it/
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:12 am

Tu-du-du-doo-doo-du-du, let's check up on the GB battle -

OMG guys what's going on here?! Yeah I see that some things look suspicious. A good list of them has been compiled, here's two more things I find objectionable:

- there was no battle in GB. The GB units in GB MUST AUTOATTACK.
- post battle order, then battle calculation. No exceptions unless the battle has an obvious outcome (a Kanite Militant attacking a stack of three Gowems, well we can guess what will happen random num or not).


Also, I did not receive yet a PM with pop points.

Guys, you seem to be calming down, which is cool and kudos. There is some serious sore loserdom going on here and we'd rather not mimic it, eh wot?
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Nihila » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:18 am

Okay, my apologies to Az and Dave for the rudeness and hostility. :oops:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:- there was no battle in GB. The GB units in GB MUST AUTOATTACK.
... I thought that that only applied to entering units, though I may be wrong.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:18 am

Btw Nihila, since I didn't follow the accounting, how did you tell that GB got 1100+ pop points in the last 2 turns?
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:19 am

Nihila wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:- there was no battle in GB. The GB units in GB MUST AUTOATTACK.
... I thought that that only applied to entering units, though I may be wrong.


Oh no. Retreat immediately or, since unled, attack. Many of them cannot retreat anyway.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Nihila » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:24 am

It's Sihoiba's math, mostly. But it's easy enough to follow.

2 Commanders (new)*46=92
[14(current number)-5(original number)] Golmon Knights= 9 Golmon Knights*44=396
7 Golmon Dwagoknights*80=560
92+396+560=1048+140(pop points last turn for GB)=1188+65(how much does it cost to upgrade)(this is Lokarat's new cost)=1243
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:31 am

So it's 1240 total for last two turns taken together? It is in slight disparity with what you'd expect from a besieged side (with an ally, admittedly) opposed to an alliance of several other sides.

I'd rather have all those monstrous lists of questions answered ASAP before anything. This was obviously meant to prolong the game.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:32 am

I don't entirely get where the extra 140 comes from in his calculations, did I miss GB popping some units last turn?

My numbers were calculated basically as:

Cost of Golman forces this turn - Cost of Golman forces when they broke alliance two turns ago = Number of points gained by GB over those two turns.

So Golman has 1048 points of new units.
Not including the upgrade cost of Lokarat which is something I ignore due to the ridiculousness of it.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:34 am

Just for reference LT_Dave hasn't read my pm yet.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Nihila » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:38 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:So it's 1240 total for last two turns taken together? It is in slight disparity with what you'd expect from a besieged side (with an ally, admittedly) opposed to an alliance of several other sides.
Ah, maybe not. If the point total for upgrade is the cost difference then GB received "only" 1209 points... if we want to open the upgrading can of worms.

Sihoiba wrote:I don't entirely get where the extra 140 comes from in his calculations, did I miss GB popping some units last turn?
And the 140 is from the turn before, as two turns have passed since the alliance thing, it makes sense to include both turns' points, for at least 1188.

Not including the upgrade cost of Lokarat which is something I ignore due to the ridiculousness of it.
Yes, that is probably a good idea.

Edit:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:This was obviously meant to prolong the game.
Yes, but I would object on the grounds that more elegant ways of prolonging games exist, and the introduction of about five new sides' worth of units is likely to foreshorten a game. From E5, it's less than two turns to hit our base camp for the Dwagoknights (560 pop points worth of units right there). It is interesting to note that the Dwagoknights can carry the Horse Knights, so we're probably looking at Daigo attacking our base camp next turn if the most recent GB turn counts.

Another of my unit concepts, to counter the predicted Golmon raid:
Enter Ominous Name Here
Hits:30
Attack:25
Defense:5
Move:0.5
Special:25(Ranged)
Cost:40
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:44 pm

Nihila wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:This was obviously meant to prolong the game.
Yes, but I would object on the grounds that more elegant ways of prolonging games exist.


And I'd object on the grounds that this game needs to end at some point and since we've been dropping players on the way now was as good a time as any; and them move on to some other new one.

Indeed, the art of the subtle fudge seems to have been lost. The one silver lining in all of this is that GB popped fast expensive units; now if we had a similar pop point allocation ...
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby LTDave » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:08 am

Hi folks. Sorry about all of the mistakes as listed above. When we started this game back in April, I had no idea that it would go on for this long. I had planned that in turn 3 or four (which I figured would be in May) to introduce an army of units storming down from Gobwin Knob, to represent the collapse of the Ansom's forces. The idea would be for the MCC forces to be put on the defensive, making for an interesting and entertaining game.

The reality is that it is now mid-August, and (I apologise for the following statement) I've really lost interest in the whole escapade. Work and family are starting to crowd in on my little free time, and I haven't been paying as much attention to this game as I otherwise would have. That's part of the beauty of Erfworld Empires, BTW - it only takes me what, an hour a week? And that includes making the map.

Azgrut told me in June or July that he wanted out, and I suggested that his forces become my alternative pincer movement. It's then taken four or five weeks for that to come to fruition, and the results are as above. I don't have the mental capacity at the moment to pay a great deal of attention to things, so the results have some mistakes.

We have three options, going forward:
1. Call it a day, slap each other on the back, and say 'thanks for playing, let's move on to something else'
2. Act as though the whole last turn was fool-a-mancy, and watch as the MCC just chops Gobwin Bump to shreds
3. Try to keep on going, fixing up the errors of the last turn, and modifying the rules to allow some of the crazier things.

Opinions, thoughts, responses?
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Sihoiba » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:52 am

I think I have to say Option 1, but you tell us what the items of interest are.

The problem with Option 2 is it wasn't that clear cut, the odds were quite likely we would end up in a long stalemate action. You underestimate the defensive advantage Gobwin Bump has.

Option 3 is I think too major a shift and I don't think the third restart that it requires would help people's interest in the game.

Thanks for running it LT_Dave
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Nihila » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:20 am

Oh, Ansom's collapse. Well, that would explain the shift. Anyhow, I'll say Option 1, as well. It's been great playing, though. :)

And what were the shinies?

Thanks for GM'ing this campaign, LTDave!

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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Azgrut » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:25 am

(Then for story's sake, the battle's were foolamancy and did not happen)

Lokarat looks at the letter handed to him by Hisgeng. He smiles a bit at the cleverness of his Kahn.
"This is better then the spoils we would recieve. None will bother us leaving the Coalition after hearing this story."

He writes a small text on a paper and hands it to his last battle hawk. It will be croaked by the coalition for sure but that was not a problem.

"Go to the chief warlord of the coalition." he orders his Hawk

To the chief warlord of the mini royal crown coalition.
You might have had your doubt about the Golmon interests in this battle. I say it has been our purest intention to bring down Bumb no matter what. Therefore we have broken alliance and joined bumb to drain them of their smuckers. Smuckers they would doubtless use in the defence of their city. Bump is weakened and has no reinforcements ready to aid them. The city is ready to be taken. Share my spoils with the others, we have had enough from our deal with Bump.

It was an honour fighting on your side and I hope we can ally in future engagements or battle each other should our sides collide.

Prince Lokarat


And after he sees his hawk take off to the chief warlord of the mRCC, he orders his stacks of warriors away from the battle, breaking alliance with Bumb before they even left the first hex.

I choose option 1 as well :).
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