Binty wrote:Here we circle to the heart of it. In my opinion there has not been enough related material to indirectly draw inference from a this lack. I remain unconvinced by your attempts to do this. I am adverse to drawing inference from gaps, as I generally debate science issues. However, this might be less valid in a literary subject than a scientific one. So perhaps I am being over-cautious and should move p(H/D) back to 0.5.
Btw there is small evidence that resources (of a type) are required for unit production. Sizemore uses 'materials' to make golems. Wanda uses the croaked to make uncroaked units. These units aren't popped so its not direct, but it is an example of resources being needed to make units (the hypothesis H, uses the term resources not money).
So not only do we not value each other's proffered evidence, we approach the determination of what is likely in markedly different ways. Good to know. For instance, that Sizemore and Wanda create units from (presumably finite) resources in a single turn, to me, is further evidence that no resources would be necessary (other than time, which is a valuable resource all its own) to pop units naturally. Ture, there is no direct evidence here to the lack of necessary physical resources. But since we know popping units naturally DOES take time, and doing it through 2 different kind of magics (probably more; I imagine Moneymancers can do it with Shmuckers, and possibly Dollamancers or others can do similar things) doesn't
take an appreciable amount of time, that they are balanced in this way if popping does not require anything but time. (Of course, the units demand upkeep afterwards, so they're not really free).
Actually (depending on a loose definition of pop) we see an instance of this in canon... So p(H/D) = 1. Of course this was a findamancer/predictamancer summoning rather than a typical 'pop'. Similarly, other spells that create units are almost certainly existant.
However by a stricter definition of 'pop' I am inclined to agree that the lack of reference to the option is significant. So we might infer that it is either impossible or tactically impractical.
I think it is worth noting that all canon instances of units being created or collected in a single turn either make use of magic by spellcaster, or in the case of non-capital sides, who cannot pop units conventionally, "Natural magic".
Notably, the act of creation in all the caster-created units does not cost any Shmuckers. (the spell cost 350K, but that was paid to the spell's creators, not to Erfworld itself, or however it works when Natural allies or barbarians do it.)
For their part, the non-capital sides pay Shmuckers to pop their units, but don't need a city or caster or anything else - have money, will travel, presumably anywhere on Erf - they're not restricted to popping in cities or wherever they can find the "materials." Hm. I assumed they popped instantly when they paid, but now I think about it, this might not be a certainty - if it isn't, that would be a huge argument that popping normally doesn't cost Shmuckers. Even if it is instant, being able to do it anywhere is a big advantage, but that might be explained by them simply costing more... though I still think they're an argument for free popping. Gonna look back into it.
EDIT: Hmm... Balder says they convert "Shmuckers directly to units" - which I took to mean instant, and I'm still inclinded to believe it does, but I suppose it could take a few turns to go through, and would then be an indication that no units are made via Shmuckers (directly) without Moneymancy. (all the uses of magic being indirect, and normal popping not involving money)
I kinda want to sit down and just look at all we really do know about creating units.
"Standard Method A
," or "City-Popping
The sole domain of Capital sides. Takes Time
. More time for better units. Limited selection of available units based on city "type," possibly level too. Warlords can only be produced by "Big" (high level?) cities, over "a lot" of turns, as opposed to doing it instantly via promotion at the cost of "mucho shmuckero." (presumably significantly less than 500K). Production orders are set by Ruler.
Might take some money, or other "resource?" Is that covered by the 'menu' limitations? Are casters produced by cities? No one knows. Almost certainly the ruler doesn't get to choose when/what. Presumably there is an upper limit to how many units can be produced concurrently (or maybe their popping times lengthen as more are added? Maybe it's a queue? If it costs no or little money, a financially viable side would build financial reserves, that if not spent on spells or promotions would be idle... unless they allied with or hired someone who can use-
"Standard Method B
," or "Field-Popping
Used by non-capital sides (Natural Allies) and Barbarians (presumably). Takes Shmuckers
. Presumably more $ for better units/warlords. Limited selection of troops, seems to be based upon racial lines. For Barbarians, based upon... ex-side? Tribe? ?? Presumably unrestricted in popping location.
Possibly available in some form to Moneymancers. Possibly instantaneous, possibly not? No known instances of casters being popped in this fashion.
"Standard Method C
," or "Wild-Popping
Occasionally units and (rarely) warlords can pop as Barbarians spontaneously in the wild, costing no one money, but belonging to no one. No casters are known to have popped this way, and no mention was made of them popping this way.
"Secondary Method A
," or "Magic Creation
Used by casters. Takes Juice
. Can take no
Time, and presumably no Shmuckers. Highly limited pool of units to choose from. Depends on available materials. Quantity & Quality likely depend on level/stats of caster. For croakamancy, raising more units at once hurt quality. For dirtamancy, some limit must exist - possibly better golems do take several turns to create? Or the materials for better golems are scarce and must be mined slowly over time? Presumably crap golems are easiest to make, and Metal golems hardest.
B," or "Summoning
Used by casters. Takes Juice
, or spell scroll
. Works instantaneously. Possibly risky/unreliable. May take multiple magic types to locate, transport, and bind subject. (Findamancy, Hat Magic, Thinkamancy?)