What the hell happened to this comic

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Tensor » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:23 pm

Nihila wrote:my opinions are worthless.


See what happens when you pick and choose what you what to hear out of context?
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Nihila » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:25 pm

Tensor wrote:
Nihila wrote:my opinions are worthless.


See what happens when you pick and choose what you what to hear out of context?
Side splitting. Hilarious. Or, to be actually honest, rude, disrespectful, childish, inane, and several other words that I don't care to waste on you. How was I taking your words out of context? Explain, please.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:30 pm

MarbitChow wrote:I doubt greatly, however, that any of my inane ramblings would have any real impact, and if (or, more hopefully when) updates increase and the plot advances, all of this ramblings will be forgotten (until the next inevitable lull in the plot, which would be required to set up the NEXT climax).


You may think that, as it would probably be a rational outcome. However, I've seen enough bitter political primary debates between proponents of different candidates of the same party to know that rational or not, arguments like these can and do turn off people to the extent that they will refuse to support the other candidate no matter what. Even though that other candidate hadn't done a thing to them, it was "just" the other candidate's supporters.

One logical end result of some of your and others' arguments would be for Tool subscribers to simply stop their subscriptions. I don't want that, and I won't be doing that, but the more I see some of the defenses that are being put up by some of those who are ostensibly supporting Rob (when in fact the Tool subscribers ARE supporting Rob, and quite a bit more tangibly), the more I am shaking my head.

I'd like to think we can all agree that we'd love to see the update rate increase, and that we care about this story, and that the author is a great storyteller. Might be best to leave it at that, and just let some of the more frustrated Tool subscribers have their opportunity to vent.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby raphfrk » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:51 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Average pay for a typical graphic designer/graphic artist is $40-$60 an hour. Personally, I think Xin's work is far above 'typical'.
20 Tool subscribers combined would pay for one hour's worth of Xin's work, maybe. How many hours go into making each page?
How many Tools are there currently? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? Or is it more like a few hundred?


There are 971 users in the Tool usergroup. It is possible that that isn't the actual number of active/paying tools, since they might not remove a user for a while when their subscriptions run out.

That gives around $3k per month, if they have 2/3 overhead, that is $1000 per month profit split between 2 creators. Ofc, given that the points can't be used for shipping, the overhead might be lower. $12k a year isn't much to share between 2 people as the only source of income.

I have no idea what rates are per page for producing a comic. Maybe they were hoping for more than 1000 Tools in order to maintain a faster update rate. It would be interesting to see a time series of the number of Tools.

if you honestly believe that Rob is sitting back, counting your money and laughing, instead of working as hard and fast as possible to tell this story EXACTLY RIGHT THE FIRST TIME (since, unlike most authors, he doesn't really have the luxury of edits and rewrites since he's posting them as he goes along), then feel free to cancel your subscription and move on with your life.


Again, this is the nuclear option, it is perfectly reasonable for customers to complain if they aren't happy. You are right that the business is perfectly entitled to ignore them.

However, at this point, I am sure Rob/Xin have read this thread and it is not like much more is going to be added.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:02 pm

Guys, guys, let's not fight. Let's instead find something we can all agree on. Say, for instance, something like Neil Gaiman is a colossal pillock amirite? Who's with me?

*crickets chirping*

*crickets chirping some more*
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Nihila » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:06 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Guys, guys, let's not fight. Let's instead find something we can all agree on.
That the updates are slow?
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby effataigus » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:32 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Guys, guys, let's not fight. Let's instead find something we can all agree on. Say, for instance, something like Neil Gaiman is a colossal pillock amirite? Who's with me?

*crickets chirping*

*crickets chirping some more*


OMG YES!

I went to one of his book signings to get a copy of American Gods signed for a friend (before I knew who he was). That rat fink spent 3 hours reading from his own book to a bedazzled crowd when the bookstore event had only allotted 1 hour. I just wanted to get the damn thing signed and go home... I came to despise that smug self satisfied voice over the speakers. I eventually had to give up and go to class.

I later read one of his books and it confirmed for me idea that you won't like any idea presented by someone you don't like.

Oh wait... this is one of those "Go Kelso" things isn't it? ISN'T IT??!!

CURSES, why must I be alone in my petty hatred of this terrible terrible man!?!
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:41 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Guys, guys, let's not fight. Let's instead find something we can all agree on.

That the Russians are attempting to contaminate our precious bodily fluids?
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby CorrTerek » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:57 pm

effataigus wrote:CURSES, why must I be alone in my petty hatred of this terrible terrible man!?!


Well, I don't hate Gaiman, per se, but I'm not a major fan of his work. Does that help?
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:07 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Guys, guys, let's not fight. Let's instead find something we can all agree on.

That the Russians are attempting to contaminate our precious bodily fluids?


:lol:

One of these days I'll go back to my previous avatar. Someday. Which, lest anyone be afraid, was a totally SFW pic of the good Dr. Merkwurdigliebe.

effataigus wrote:Oh wait... this is one of those "Go Kelso" things isn't it? ISN'T IT??!!

CURSES, why must I be alone in my petty hatred of this terrible terrible man!?!


What are you suggesting, I'm totally serious like totally in my support of Kelso!

As for Mr. G, didn't have the pleasure of meeting him ever. I'll tell you one other thing though. Richard Dawkins is one of, if not the, best communicator of science that has graced our world since Feynman (*swoon*). He's also a humourless prick. So you know. Never meet your idols.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Jay » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:23 am

I still think the biggest concern is just that with sparse updates, people will drift away. Whether or not the tools are getting their money's worth, the comic could still just steadily lose readership based on a lack of updates, regardless of comic quality.

Now if you'll excuse me, while I wait for erfworld I'll go read some Girl Genius, which has done full-page, full-color Mon-Wed-Fri updates every week for eight years now... without a subscription model either.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby CorrTerek » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:59 pm

Jay wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, while I wait for erfworld I'll go read some Girl Genius, which has done full-page, full-color Mon-Wed-Fri updates every week for eight years now... without a subscription model either.


While you're at it, check out the Dreamland Chronicles -- guy's been doing daily updates for I don't know how long (all fully rendered CG work), until recently, when it dipped down to about three updates a week. The reason it did so, however, is because the guy's working on getting both the Chronicles and another property of his made into movies.

So yeah, excellent read.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Nihila » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:22 pm

CorrTerek wrote:
Jay wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, while I wait for erfworld I'll go read some Girl Genius, which has done full-page, full-color Mon-Wed-Fri updates every week for eight years now... without a subscription model either.


While you're at it, check out the Dreamland Chronicles -- guy's been doing daily updates for I don't know how long (all fully rendered CG work), until recently, when it dipped down to about three updates a week. The reason it did so, however, is because the guy's working on getting both the Chronicles and another property of his made into movies.

So yeah, excellent read.
Irregular Webcomic all the way. Despite the name, daily updates since Titans know when. It is very funny, but if you want to read from the beginning, make your next few meals and find a reason to not go to work. It's on strip 2795 as of September 21st, and it's not going to get shorter.

Also, the annotations are often educational, though geeks like us already know half the stuff. :P
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby raphfrk » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:32 am

Seerow wrote:When I initially signed up to be a TOOL, I wanted to support the comic to encourage the creators to update frequently. In fact, if you dug back through the archives, you could probably find a post of mine suggesting an alternative donation model, to make it so that we can choose to donate 50 cents to a dollar per update. If they had done something like that, I probably would have saved myself about 20 dollars since I joined.


With only 5 posts by you, it is pretty easy to find :).

Anyway, I agree would be better for subscribers to pay for what they want (comic updates), rather than paying for time. The idea of paying per month is to give the creators more stable income.

The original proposal was 2 comics a week. At $3 per month, split over 8 comics, that's $0.38 per comic.

However, they dropped that back to 1 comic every 5 days + text updates, which gives 6 comics a month, so $0.50 per comic.

OTOH, paypal doesn't offer a subscription model like that. One issue is that it would require merchants to set how much their customer pays in a given month. This has potential fraud issues and paypal probably don't want to deal with customers arguing about what is and what is not a comic (or other product).

I see that there was a news post that says that they hit 750 tools in the first weeks after release. Maybe, the comic just didn't increase in support (if it only has 950 ish Today) :(. Websites tend to increase/decrease exponentially.

Honestly at this point the only reason I haven't canceled my toolship is because I can't even figure out how. There is no easy "unsubscribe" button anywhere on the site that I can see. So it seems as though I'm stuck paying for a product that appears to have died.


While I hesitate to point this out, it is better than you canceling by contacting your CC company or something, I believe you unsubscribe using Paypal.

I subscribed for 1 year and then immediately unsubscribed (as that seems to be the only way to buy 1 year non-recurring).
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Tensor » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:04 am

raphfrk wrote:However, they dropped that back to 1 comic every 5 days + text updates, which gives 6 comics a week, so $0.50 per comic.


Seerow wrote:And then the last few months they dropped it to one comic every 2 weeks, giving us 2 comics a week, $1.50 a comic.


I think both of you meant to say "a month" up there.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:20 pm

Again, I can totally relate to the concerns. As a fellow Tool, I would only point out this recent news snippet:

Again, we are all doing the best we can but we're stretched pretty thin and I have a lot of life turbulence right now. I will be moving by the end of the year, etc.


I obviously have no idea what's going on, and I don't need to know, but it sounds significant and my thoughts and prayers are with the author. To the extent anyone is willing to give a little bit more leeway, I think that would be a fantastic thing.

But that is just me, obviously, and YMMV.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby raphfrk » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:58 pm

Tensor wrote:I think both of you meant to say "a month" up there.


Yeah. have edited the post
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Jay » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:28 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:Again, I can totally relate to the concerns. As a fellow Tool, I would only point out this recent news snippet:

Again, we are all doing the best we can but we're stretched pretty thin and I have a lot of life turbulence right now. I will be moving by the end of the year, etc.


I obviously have no idea what's going on, and I don't need to know, but it sounds significant and my thoughts and prayers are with the author. To the extent anyone is willing to give a little bit more leeway, I think that would be a fantastic thing.

But that is just me, obviously, and YMMV.

Getting "stretched thin" with work projects is a choice. Don't stretch yourself so thin you can't deliver everything you intend. That's not in the same category as "I was in a car accident" or something similar. If you're getting stretched too thin, you cut projects that are less important.. Is that Erfworld? I guess maybe it is.

And regardless of when "Duel" was actually worked on, publishing a new comic online at the exact moment that Erfworld updates slowed to virtually nothing was not a really good customer service strategy...
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:36 pm

Jay wrote:Getting "stretched thin" with work projects is a choice. Don't stretch yourself so thin you can't deliver everything you intend. That's not in the same category as "I was in a car accident" or something similar. If you're getting stretched too thin, you cut projects that are less important.. Is that Erfworld? I guess maybe it is.


That honestly wasn't the impression I received, when a person is needing to move, that is often associated with a work- or relationship- related displacement... and moving by itself is often stressful enough. Again, I acknowledge this is just speculation, but I'm personally willing to cut him some slack. Again... YMMV. I know that.

And regardless of when "Duel" was actually worked on, publishing a new comic online at the exact moment that Erfworld updates slowed to virtually nothing was not a really good customer service strategy...


I totally agree with you, as I indicated earlier in the thread.
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Re: What the hell happened to this comic

Postby Tensor » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:01 pm

Honestly, is there a person on the planet without some turbulence in their life?

And I totally agree about car accident vs. other stuff, but c'mon, a person is always moving, or having a big deadline at work, or the car needs new tires, or a tree fell in the yard, or I have a big exam coming up or a drunken stepbrother killed your cat by falling asleep on it, etc. Things like that are par for the course of being a human on this planet. Suck it up.

Anyway, I'm done ranting, promise. Hopefully things will get better.
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