A battle of two cities - Turn 11

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A battle of two cities - Turn 11

Postby Sihoiba » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:16 pm

This is another rules play test games thread designed to sit along side Nihila's and Watermonkey's Battle for Somewhere games. However unlike those games where it's one side of players versus a single all seeing GM this game is designed to be two teams versus each other with a GM handling the combats, and scout results.

Ideally I'd like each side to have an even number of players on but it doesn't particularly matter.

For this game I'm keeping Bland's previous unit formula with an adjusted cost to the scout special, introducing caster like unit specials, levels for all units, and fortifications. I won't be using my adjusted movement figures, or the retaliation rules, as I want the attacker to have the advantage (to reduce the temptation for one side to turtle). Seeing as neither side has perfect map visibility, I doubt this will cause as many issues as it did in the "Battle for somewhere" games. The aim is largely to find the power of some new special rules, and forts, while also trying to get a better handle on how much the perfect information is skewing the test games.

Hopefully next time I run this we'll have a new unit formula based upon the maths/debating in the other thread. For now though I'm keeping a lot of the existing stuff to avoid changing too too much at once.

Practicalities

Each team will be responsible for PMing me their orders, they can either nominate one chief warlord or each PM individual orders, I'll leave individual troop coordination to the two teams. I'll be maintaining a map to keep track of unit positions, but other than a starting map of the combat area, I'll leave how you coordinate your movement positions to you.

During the course of the game only three things will be posted in this thread scouting reports, combat results and trap activations. All three will be visible to both sides, as units will see the scouts 'visiting', both sides will be aware of combat, and both the setter and the victim of the trap know when it's fired. EDIT: Added trap activations to events that will be posted in the thread.

Each player will design four units, three of those will get posted in this thread (allowing other players to design counter forces), the fourth will be PMed to me and will count as natural allies for your side. This is to allow both sides to surprise each other a little.

Rules

Design your force:
Spoiler: show
As in the Comic, Units have four stats – Move, Attack, Defence, and Hits.

Move is the number of hexes a unit can move on the strategic map – Value 0 to 5.

Attack is the Combat value of the unit, whether attacking or being attacked.

Defence represents the Armour/Dodge value of the unit. It is the capacity of the unit to avoid taking hits. Basically, a value of 5 means that 5 out of 8 hits against a stack will be ignored.

Hits are the amount of damage a unit can take before being cwoaked. Hits are restored to full at the beginning of the side’s turn.

For the purposes of this game, Players will design their own unit types. Each Player can have up to four distinct unit types, each with their own stats. These cannot be changed as the game progresses, so be careful in design.
Some simple rules on design:
1. Movement of 0 is Garrison. Movement of 1 is Siege; Movement of 2 is Infantry; Movement of 3 or 4 is Cavalry; Movement of 5 is Flyer. Units may not have move higher than 5 in this game.
2. Attack is limited to (2*Hits) or round up(4*Hits^(2/3)), whichever is lower.
3. Units may have a defence value between 0 and 5, but may not have defence higher than hits.
4. Hits are related to size. So a unit with 1 hit is tiny (like a bat or bird), 3 is small (like a Gobwin), 5 is average (like a Human or Elf), 10 is big (Horse or Twoll), 20 is large (Dwagon or Golem), 30 is huge (Giants, etc). A unit may not have more than 30 hits.
5. The cost of the unit is equal to all the following formula:
Cost = Hits*Move/2 + Defense*(Hits^(2/3))/2 + Attack + Special (Move = .8 for Garrison units)
Attack is limited to (2*Hits) or round up(4*Hits^(2/3)), whichever is lower.

Specials are as follows:
Scouting: 4*(Hits+(Defence/2)) I want scouts to be cheaper
Commanders: 20
Ranged: Attack. Units with range attack before units without range.
Siege: 10. Unit gains +5 attack, and deals quadruple damage to fortifications. Can only be give to units with a move of 1 and 10 or more hits. This allows the unit to exceed the usual attack cap.
Dancefighting: 0.75*Attack (rounded up). Units with dancefighting, if led by a Commander with dance fighting get an additional 1.5 damage multiplier.
Mancyspecials Units can have only one Mancy special, and can only use it once each day.
Healomancy: Attack. A unit with healomancy can heal up to ATTACK hits of damage at end of turn during their players turn, OR prevent ATTACK hits worth of damage from an enemies attack during an enemies turn, but not both in one day. Units with Healomancy count as having 0.5*Attack (rounded up) in combat.
Foolomancy: Hits+Defence+5. A unit with foolomancy can veil one stack of units he is a member of, that stack suffers no retaliation damage on it's next attack unless the opposing side makes a (2 + number of units * ((average unit level/10) +1))% spot check OR the unit can generate a baffle that grants the stack he is in a +1 defence bonus for the next turn.
Shockomancy: Attack. A unit with shockomancy can shock up to 2xAttacks hits of units once a day. Those units attack values are not including in retaliatory damage calculations. The unit with shockomancy must be engaging the target stack in order to shock them. The Shockomancy affect happens before ranged damage.
Dirtomancy: 10+Defence+Attack. A unit with dirtmancy once a day can either raise a minor fortification in a single plains hex, or set a trap in a single hex. A trap deals damage to the first ground stack to enter the hex equal to the dirtmancy units attack *2 before any combat is calculated.
[Terrain] capable: 5. Terrain capable units can move through the terrain at no penalty. Non flying units without the suitable terrain capable spend an extra move to move through swamp and woods hexes (so siege can not enter), and cannot enter mountain hexes. The Terrain types are Mountain, Swamp, Woods, Roads, Plains. NB: All ground units gain an extra move if the entire move is spend on road hexes. Flying units only benefit from Mountain Capable reducing the cost to enter mountain hexes from 2 to 1.

Each Player has 500 points worth of units at the beginning of the game. Players must post 3 of 4 their unit types and stats on the forum, the fourth unit type should be pm'ed to me.


Mounts and Riders
Spoiler: show
Mounts can carry up to Hits/2 Hits worth of units into battle. Mounting and demounting does not cost any move.
In combat include the mount and the rider as separate units when determining total attack, average defence, stack bonus and level bonus.
When assigning damage in stack order the damage dealer gets to decide which of the rider or the mount is ahead in the stack (i.e. a Stack of 1 orlie, Jillian mounted on a Gwiffon, 1 orlie - the attacker deals damage in the order of Orlie, Jillian, Gwiffon, Orlie or Orlie, Gwiffon, Jillian, Orlie depending on his choice.
Ranged units on non ranged mounts can choose to either fight at range in which case the mounts attack and level is not included in the total stacks attack score nor does it count towards the stack bonus (though it still counts for calculating the stacks average defence), or fight at melee range in which case the mount counts as a unit in the stack as normal.
Likewise Dancefighting units on non dancefighting mount can choose to either dancefight in which case the mounts attack and level is not included in the total stacks attack score nor does it count towards the stack bonus (though it still counts for calculating the stacks average defence), or not dance fight in which case the mount counts as a unit in the stack as normal.
The converse is also true for a ranged/dance fighting mount and a non ranged/non dancefighting rider.
Non flying riders on flying mounts are subjected to the dangers of falling. If the mount is killed the rider falls to the ground. On hitting the ground the rider has a 1/3 chance to instantly croak, a 1/3 chance to be incapitated (cwoak if not healed via healomancy in one turn) or a 1/3 chance to be injured. The damage dealt is equal to unit hits/2- unit defence, minimum 1.


Commanders:
Spoiler: show
A Commander is a unit, like Ansom or Zamussels in the Comic. Each Player must have at least one Commander.
In the Comic, Commanders are all roughly “Human”. Therefore, no Commander may have more than 6 hits, or less than 3.

In addition, Commanders have a “Level”. When the Commander is created, the GM will determine the level – on a d10, 1-2 is level 1, 3-5 level 2, 6-7 level 3, 8-9 level 4, 10 level 5.

Commanders increase the attack values of the units they are stacked with, and may issue orders. Only units given orders by a Commander may move in a turn.


Levels:
Spoiler: show
Each time a unit is in a winning combat (ie, inflicts more hits than the opponent), the unit gains 1 experience point. The unit may go to the next level if they have experience points equal to the next level (ie, to go from level 3 to 4, the unit must have 4 experience points).
The average level of all units in a stack increases the damage the stack deals in combat.


Fortifications:
Spoiler: show
Fortifications have hits and can be destroyed, reducing their defence bonus. When inside Fortifications are one more stacks of units can be chosen to defend the fortifications in a specified order (so if the first chosen stack is cwoaked or rendered disabled in any other way, the next chosen stack defends). The defending stack deals damage to any units attacking the fortification. However if the fortification is destroyed any left over damage is applied to the defending stack. Alternatively attackers can choose to attack the defenders directly, if they do so and succeed in wiping out all defenders in the fortification the attackers gain control of the fortification.
Minor Fortifications have 50 hits.
Forts have 200 hits.


Combat:
Spoiler: show
In the comic, Parson says that Combat in Erfworld has a simple mechanic, and the key to victory is multipliers, not addition. The following system attempts to replicate that.

Units fight together in Stacks. In Combat, Total all ATTACK values points for the units in the stack. Flyers may not stack with non-Flyers (unless the non-Flyers are using the Flyers as Mounts).

Stack Bonus. A stack of 1 unit has a stack bonus of 1.0, this increases by 0.1 for every additional unit until the stack has 8 units, and then reduces back to 1.0 in 0.2 steps with every additional unit after 8.
Eg. 1 unit 1.0, 2 units 1.1..., 8 units 1.7, 9 units 1.5, 10 units 1.3... 12+ units 1.0

Commander Bonuses – for each level of the Commander in the stack, increase the Command Bonus by 0.1. If there is no Commander, the Bonus remains at 1.0.
The Chief Warlord is a Special Commander. In any hex with a Chief Warlord, the Leadership bonus of all Allied stacks is increased by 0.1.

Unit Level bonuses - 1.0 + ((average unit level -1) /10). So a stack of 8 level 2 units has a bonus of 1.1

Terrain Bonuses: Some terrain increases Defence values. Fortifications also increase this number. In attack, this is always 0. In Defence: Roads, Swamps and Plains are 0, Woods, and minor dirtamancy fortifications are 1, and Forts and Mountains are 2. Flying units never get Terrain Bonuses, and always count this as a 0. Total Defence values for all units in the stack, and then divide by the number of units to get the average.

Ranged units on the Defensive inflict hits before the enemy has a chance to attack. Ranged units on the offensive may inflict hits, and, if the unit has move remaining, may leave the hex before the opposing stack retaliates. If a ranged unit attacks a ranged unit, combat is simultaneous. In order to use a ranged attack, the entire stack must be ranged. Non-Ranged Commanders may add a Leadership bonus only to a stack of Ranged units – obviously do not use their Attacks. Ranged stacks must always choose to engage an enemy ranged stack (if possible) before attacking a non-ranged stack.

Dancefighting. For units without dancefighting this is 1.0, units with Dancefighting 1.5.

Fatigue Penalty. Starts at 1.0, each subsequent attack the stack defends against reduces this value by x0.5. The only exception to this is if the Defending unit succeeds in ‘wiping out’ the attacking stack – ie, all attacking units are cwoaked. In this event, the Defending stack acts as though it had not fought any combats.

Ambush Bonus – units that enter a hex without scouting can be ambushed. The Ambush value ranges from 1.0 (no ambush) to 2.0 (ambush).

Random Number – not every combat point means a hit. The Random Number adds a bit of luck to the mix. On (2d6+8)/20, 2 is 50%, 7 is 75%, 12 is 100%, etc.

Use the following formula to work out how many hits have been inflicted on the enemy:

Hits = Total Attack X Stack Bonus x Command Bonus X Level Bonus x Dancefighting bonus x Fatigue Penalty X Ambush Bonus X Random Number X (8 - Opposition Average Defence - Terrain Bonus) / 8

Round result to nearest whole number.

The opposing stack takes the number of hits inflicted. Units are destroyed based on their stacking order – first unit listed takes maximum hits, before the next is wounded.
Exception – a stack led in attack by a Commander may direct hits at any unit in the opposing stack, but the unit takes TWICE as many hits to cwoak as it normally would. Opposing Commanders take FOUR TIMES as many hits to cwoak as normal if targeted. Obviously the first unit in a stack will never need to be targeted.

EDIT: Forgot stack bonus in calculation

A turn:
Spoiler: show
The turn is broken into two phases – Scout, and Move / Combat. At the beginning of the game, the players will elect one of their own to be Chief Warlord. It is the responsibility of the Chief to declare an end to the Scout Phase, and to the Move / Combat phase, which will end the turn. In the event that a Player has not posted orders within 72 hours (three days) of the beginning of a phase, the Chief Warlord may issue orders on their behalf and end the Phase.

Scout Phase:
Players may create units with a special scout ability.

In the Scout phase, any scout unit in the same hex as a Commander may be given orders to inspect a string of adjacent hexes equal to the unit’s move. The unit remains in the original hex – it simply inspects the hexes (how it does this is left entirely up to your imagination). The Scout unit moves in the Movement phase.

In the Scout Phase, players give orders to their scout units. Once the Chief Warlord declares an end to the Scout Phase, the GM will examine the orders and update the map with information from hexes inspected. Scout units may then move their full allowance in the Move / Combat phase.

Figure 1:
Scout unit S has three move, and has the following orders – inspect NW (Northwest), inspect SW (Southwest), inspect S (South).
Scout unit S2 has two move, and has the following orders – inspect SW, inspect SE.

(Sorry, image isn't visible. Scouts can inspect any number of hexes that they could move into in the Move/Combat phase, as long as each hex is adjacent to the last hex scouted)

Both units remain in the starting hex, and may move 3 and 2 hexes respectively in the Move / Combat phase.

During the Scout Phase, the Chief Warlord may be given a number of points to distribute between the players. The Players may then nominate a set of units to “pop” at the beginning of the Scout Phase.

Once the GM has reported on the actions of scouts, the Movement and Combat phase begins. Players may issue orders to units in the same hex as a Commander. Units may move into any hex, but if a unit moves into a hex that has not been scouted, it may be ambushed if enemy forces are present.

Commanders may move units to pass on orders to other units – so a stack at a distance could be reached by another unit that passes on instructions.

Commanders may move into a hex, issue orders to units there, and then move on again.

Units may be sent to attack enemy units. Players should use the spreadsheet provided to calculate the combat results. Each Unit may attack once per turn.

Units gain advantages by stacking together. It is possible to attack the same stack multiple times, but each stack in a hex must be attacked before any stack is attacked more than once.

For Example:
A hex contains two stacks – Stack “A” of 8 gobwins, and stack “B” of 6 gobwins.
In order for Alliance troops to attack Stack “A” twice, stack “B” must be attacked at least once.

Players may move in any order, and may move and fight with all or some of their units at any one time.

If a stack has movement left after combat, it may move to an adjacent hex.


In addition:
Each side will have 1 magic hat per player + 1 located permanently in their base camp, orders between units can be relayed by units (as we've been doing to date) or via magic hat. To send orders by magic hat the warlord giving the orders and the units receiving the orders must both be in a hex with a unit with a Magic Hat. If all units in a hex with a magic hat are cwoaked the victorious side acquires the hat.

Commanders (and players) can communicate with each other without hats, thanks to Charlescom Communication Solutions.

All special costs are up to debate if anything seems horribly over/under costed.

The Map
Spoiler: show
Image

Yes the base camps are within 1 relay move of each other, I want to see how broken relays are if both sides are subjected to fogs of war.

Sihoiba wrote:Some useful links:

Unit calculator the one I used to double check all your costs. If a unit has a special put a Y in the relevant column, I've put all the visible unit types up there to give examples. Hopefully I've got the google documents permissions right!

Combat Calculator this is the one I'll be using when I work our the combat damages (though using my local copy). If you want to experiment with combats when planning units, make sure to own change the blue cells.

NB: After some thought (largely to make spreadsheets simpler), I've decided to have commander level count towards average stack level as well as the command bonus.
Last edited by Sihoiba on Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:04 am, edited 16 times in total.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Nihila » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:29 pm

Once again, I'd like to thank Sihoiba for running this test simulation. My three open units are as follows:

Aimursa Hunters: 5 Hits, 8 Attack, 0 Defense, 5 Move, Ranged, Dance-Fighting. Cost=35
Sato: 10 Hits, 14 Attack, 5 Defense, 2 Move, Ranged. Cost=50
Likuit: 2 Hits, 3 Attack, 0 Defense, 5 Move, Foolamancy. Cost=15.

And yes, Risun is returning!
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby HerbieRai » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:34 pm

A few questions on rules:
1) can melee ground troops attack a flying stack? The range special says "can engage flyers on the offence." Unsure what you mean.

2) Are we allowed to have mounts and are the rules the same as before, or are we putting a cap on the number of units?

3) with shockamancy, do you shock, then attack again in a normal attack? If so, its better than range, since damage is done first and you do double damage for the same cost, then get to attack again.

4) are our commanders going to be one of our other 4 units with the command special, or are we allowed to create them separately

Note: we may need a rule that siege cannot mount.

I'll make units for this tomorrow. Don't know the faction name yet.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:06 pm

I'll sign up, using my old side of Escotia. Units to come at a later date.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:39 am

1) can melee ground troops attack a flying stack? The range special says "can engage flyers on the offence." Unsure what you mean.

Yeah they can (I've edited out that part now, meant to do that before posting), I was considering altering the way flying and melee interacts but changed my mind.

2) Are we allowed to have mounts and are the rules the same as before, or are we putting a cap on the number of units?

Yep, I want to see what difference it makes when neither side has perfect information and instead are reliant on scouts.

3) with shockamancy, do you shock, then attack again in a normal attack? If so, its better than range, since damage is done first and you do double damage for the same cost, then get to attack again.

First you shock, then you attack, however shocking doesn't deal any damage, and targeted shocking follows the same rules as targeted damage (requires double the number of hits worth of shock for normal units, and four times for Commanders - though a shocked Commander no longer provides a stack bonus). So shocking helps particularly against ranged units.

Here's an example.
Team Tesla has a stack of 7 disc jockey (10 Attack, 5 Hits), and 1 shock jockey (15 Attack, 10 Hits, shockomancy)
Team Guinea Pig has a stack of 8 pin cushions (16 Attack 8 Hits, ranged)
Team Tesla attacks Team Guinnea Pig
First the shock jockey shocks 15*2 = 30HP worth of units, the first three Pin Cushions in the stack are shocked (using 24 hits worth of shock), the fourth shakes it off (as the 6 remaining hits, is less than the units 8 hits), and like the rest are unaffected.
The 5 unshocked Pin Cushions retaliate for a total of 80 Attacks worth of damage.
Any surviving members of Team Tesla do damage as normal, including the shockmancer if it survived.

4) are our commanders going to be one of our other 4 units with the command special, or are we allowed to create them separately

Your commanders get to be one of your 3 units posted here, with the addition of the commander special. Your commander can't be one of your fourth unit type (the allied type) I'm limited the types of units people can use to see which specials they go for.

Can fortifications be built along roads?

NO, only plains (though I might expand this to mountains as well). Roads leave you more vulnerable, but allow you to move faster. Traps though can (and probably will) be built anywhere.

Note: we may need a rule that siege cannot mount.

I've made a different change The Siege special can only be given to units of 1 move and 10 or more hits. I decided that 7 attack 1 hit siege units seemed like a bad idea.

Don't forget to form up in teams!
Last edited by Sihoiba on Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:45 am

Nihila wrote:Aimursa Hunters: 5 Hits, 8 Attack, 0 Defense, 5 Move, Ranged, Dance-Fighting. Cost=35


Just to remind you/clarify units with Dance Fighting can only Dance Fight if led by a Commander with Dance Fighting, so you'll need to include a Commander version of an Aimursa in your side.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Nihila » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:46 am

Oh. I was just going to have him be a version with the Commander Special. For a cost of 55. We haven't had that take up a slot in the past, so I assumed we wouldn't now.
Sihoiba wrote:Your commanders get to be one of your 3 units posted here, with the addition of the commander special.
Like this. Also, those units will basically be boop if they can't hit and run :lol: .

For teams, let's just have it be an alternating thing--the first person to sign up is on a team with the third and fifth, etc., the second with the fourth and sixth, etc. I'm to lazy to figure out what that means for this game at this point, but let's just base it on when they post their units.
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:05 am

Are Traps based on the Attack of a single Dirtamantic unit, or of all of the ones in a stack?

Traps are based on the Attack of the Dirtamantic unit who set them. If you had a stack of Dirtamantic units they could each set a Trap in the same hex, and each Trap would activate and hit a unit that entered (Though if the entering unit/stack dies before all the traps are fired, the unneeded traps don't activate.)
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby zilfallon » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:09 am

If there is a free spot, i'd like to call forth the army of dead to Water Emperor's aid. Please say if there's a free slot, and i'll create Gerardion based on these rules.

Also, do we need to spend 1 of our unit slots for a commander? Or is the commander system same as in north-wing?
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:34 am

zilfallon wrote:If there is a free spot, i'd like to call forth the army of dead to Water Emperor's aid. Please say if there's a free slot, and i'll create Gerardion based on these rules.

Also, do we need to spend 1 of our unit slots for a commander? Or is the commander system same as in north-wing?


So far one army has been submitted so yes there are free slots.

Secondly read above I've already answered that question.

Sihoiba wrote:Your commanders get to be one of your 3 units posted here, with the addition of the commander special. Your commander can't be one of your fourth unit type (the allied type) I'm limited the types of units people can use to see which specials they go for.


So you design three units in the thread, any Commanders you pop are just one of those three unit types with an additional Commander special.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby zilfallon » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:28 am

Is it possible for ranged troops to dance-fight?
Is it possible for ranger/non-ranged troops with dance-fight to use this special when riding a mount WITHOUT dance-fighting? Or do both mount and rider need the special?
What are mounting rules exactly? Rider uses mounts defence and their attacks, specials and hits are added together?
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby HerbieRai » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:22 am

Hate to ask another question

Siege gives +5 attack. Do we need to pay the normal cost for the extra 5 attack that comes from the basic equation as well?

Example:

Dude has stats move:1 hit:1 attack:1 Defense:1; cost 2 pts
After sige is given, stats are: move:1 hit:1 attack:6 defense:1 special:siege

Cost1: just add special cost 10, so total is 12

Cost2: add new attack into formula, so total is 16
(6 for the basice 1,6,1,1 stats plus 10 for siege)

Also, can scouts find traps? I'd think not.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:16 pm

Is it possible for ranged troops to dance-fight?

Yes. The comic clearly demonstrated the power of Archons (a ranged unit) dancing with Translyvito Warlords.

Is it possible for ranger/non-ranged troops with dance-fight to use this special when riding a mount WITHOUT dance-fighting? Or do both mount and rider need the special?

I'm going to say it depends. If both mount and rider have the special then the full stack can dance fight. However if the mount does not there are two options: 1) The stack dance fights, but the mounts attack and level is not included in the total stacks attack score nor does it count towards the stack bonus (it still counts for determining average defence); 2)The stack does not dance fight and the mount assists as normal. See the new rules with respect to mounts below.

(NB: In the comic Stanley can dance fight while standing on the dwagon.)

Siege gives +5 attack. Do we need to pay the normal cost for the extra 5 attack that comes from the basic equation as well?

The cost of the bonus attack from Siege is paid in the cost of the Siege special, so you do not pay it again in the attack score. However specials based on the attack score use the units attack value including the bonus from Siege.

Also, can scouts find traps?

NO.

What are mounting rules exactly? Rider uses mounts defence and their attacks, specials and hits are added together?

Well to date mounts have just counted as another unit in a stack. With the mount always killed before it's riders in a stack order.

There's certainly scope to complicate matters though.

So how's this:
Mounts and mounted units:
Mounts can carry up to Hits/2 Hits worth of units into battle. Mounting and demounting does not cost any move.
In combat include the mount and the rider as separate units when determining total attack, average defence, stack bonus and level bonus.
When assigning damage in stack order the damage dealer gets to decide which of the rider or the mount is ahead in the stack (i.e. a Stack of 1 orlie, Jillian mounted on a Gwiffon, 1 orlie - the attacker deals damage in the order of Orlie, Jillian, Gwiffon, Orlie or Orlie, Gwiffon, Jillian, Orlie depending on his choice.
Ranged units on non ranged mounts can choose to either fight at range in which case the mounts attack and level is not included in the total stacks attack score nor does it count towards the stack bonus (though it still counts for calculating the stacks average defence), or fight at melee range in which case the mount counts as a unit in the stack as normal.
Likewise Dancefighting units on non dancefighting mount can choose to either dancefight in which case the mounts attack and level is not included in the total stacks attack score nor does it count towards the stack bonus (though it still counts for calculating the stacks average defence), or not dance fight in which case the mount counts as a unit in the stack as normal.
The converse is also true for a ranged/dance fighting mount and a non ranged/non dancefighting rider.
Non flying riders on flying mounts are subjected to the dangers of falling. If the mount is killed the rider falls to the ground. On hitting the ground the rider has a 1/3 chance to instantly croak, a 1/3 chance to be incapitated (cwoak if not healed via healomancy in one turn) or a 1/3 chance to be injured. The damage dealt is equal to unit hits/2- unit defence, minimum 1.


An Example:

Consider the stack of 1 Figure a level 2 infantry unit (5Hits, 10 Attack, 2 Defence, Dancefighting, Ranged) riding a Diagram a level 4 mount unit (10Hits, 12 Attack, 4 Defence)

When fighting a non dance melee the stacks values are: 22 Attack, Av Level 3 (so a 1.3 level bonus), Av Defence 3, Stack Bonus 1.1, Dance Fight Bonus 1.0
However when fighting a ranged dance fight the stacks values are: 10 Attack, Av Level 2 (so a 1.2 level bonus) Av Defence 3, Stack Bonus 1.0, Dance Fight Bonus 1.5
Last edited by Sihoiba on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Twoy » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:27 pm

Porcupine:
Spoiler: show
Move: 1
Hits: 5
Att: 8
Def: 5
Cost: 20
Ranged

Minotaur Archers
Spoiler: show
Move: 2
Hits: 10
Att: 15
Def: 5
Cost: 64
Ranged
Dance Fighting

Beaver:
Spoiler: show
Move: 1
Hits: 5
Att: 8
Def: 5
Cost: 43
Ranged
Dirtamancer
Last edited by Twoy on Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:13 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby zilfallon » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:30 pm

So, if i want to have mounted archers fight efficiently, both rider and mount needs the ranged, and if i want them to dance-fight, it is better if they both have it.

And, riders defence is NOT ignored on mount. It still matters if the riders def score is low or high, even if the mount is a high def. It is just 2 units combined, which count as 1 for determining stack bonus.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:33 pm

zilfallon wrote:So, if i want to have mounted archers fight efficiently, both rider and mount needs the ranged, and if i want them to dance-fight, it is better if they both have it.


Yes

zilfallon wrote:And, riders defence is NOT ignored on mount. It still matters if the riders def score is low or high, even if the mount is a high def.


Yes

zilfallon wrote:It is just 2 units combined, which count as 1 for determining stack bonus.


Nope, they count as separate units for determining stack bonus, unless one or the other isn't involved in the fight because one is ranged/dancefighting while the other can't.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby zilfallon » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:47 pm

So...8 archers mounted on 8 ranged mounts. What is the stack bonus for that? Do they get bonus of 8 unit-stack in total, or 16?
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:57 pm

I'll just say right now that I want in.

Will be reading the posts so far, as soon as I finish today's rant however.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby Sihoiba » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:07 pm

zilfallon wrote:So...8 archers mounted on 8 ranged mounts. What is the stack bonus for that? Do they get bonus of 8 unit-stack in total, or 16?


They count as a 16 unit stack, which has a stack bonus of 1.0. Of course you could have two stacks of 4 archers on 4 ranged mounts and each would have be a stack of 8 units with a stack bonus of 1.7.
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Re: A battle of two cities

Postby zilfallon » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:12 pm

Hmm. So what's the only point of mounting is providing slower units with more move. But higher move units of same cost as those slower units are physically weaker, so you replace 4 stronger-slower units with 4 weaker-faster units, to make the other 4 stronger-slower units faster.

And it's a good point.
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