Book 2 – Page 43

[ftl]

But seriously, Trem dying would be about as surprising as the Erf skies splitting, and an Avatar of Rob ordering everyone to just get along.

I'm not sure I agree with that, anymore.

Tram can't croak until we've seen a lot of him to back up the claims of him as a smart diplomat guy. However, we keep seeing more and more of that before the start of the battle.

And yet someone has to croak in this coming big fight. It has to be big to make an impact, and there's no better way to say 'big' than important people croaking. I agree, as of half a dozen comics ago, Tram was not a candidate for croaking because
1) There was still a lot to be done with him
2) He wasn't yet 'important'.

Now, with this latest panel, I can definitely see something like the following plotline being plausible:
1) Tram starts doing all the things to save Jetstone that he's talking about
2) He gets to talk to Parson, there's even a parley starting, and negotiations are getting somewhere! Parson and Tram are getting along and things are peachy! Maybe they're plotting against Charlie together!
3) For whatever reason, maybe Wanda's zealotry or Stanley coming back and giving a rash order or Slately deciding that enough is enough or Charlie pulling out some hitherto unknown power, someone throws one more first stone than is necessary at the moment. Parson puts his plan into action and ends with a bunch of people croaking, including Tram.

With how Tram's being played out, I could definitely see him used as another growth moment for Parson - making him croak someone who doesn't even *want* to fight him. (Up until now, the fights have been everyone against GK, croak or be croaked. What will the next step be in Parson's reaction to War on Erf when he has to croak someone who he doesn't even have to consider an enemy if he doesn't want to?)

...of course, with the 'extra capital site', it's been foreshadowed that Jetstone will survive at a new capital, so I'm not sure how that would fit in. But still, I get the feeling that the more we see of Tram, the more his plot armor gets weakened.

I hope I'm wrong. I'm still hoping that we see Tram in action, and that he saves the day for Jetstone somehow, to back up his smarts. And that he survives, because he's another lovely foil to Parson.

[valce]

Hooray, an update! <3

-V

[Decorus]

Charlie knows about the mathamancy bracer, so while his dossier calls him a Mathamancer Charlie in fact knows its an artifact that Parson uses.
Trem is making a mistake, because he believes Charlie doesn't want to talk to Parson due to how dangerous it would be for Charlie.
Trem is making a second mistake with unacceptable terms to which Parson will likely counter with other terms.
Trem would make another good decrypted warlord it would also be interesting to see him turn to GK's side.

[gameboy1234]

This page is also interesting in that we see Tramennis as a cold opportunist. He appears totally willing to let Ansom's and Ossomer's deaths go unavenged and to throw Jestsone's sacred Royal Mandate out the window if it can put him on the Winning Team. Whatever happened to "the true meaning of nobility" and "double the dog bowels", Tram?

I partially disagree. Tramennis is making a rational decision. If GK really could conquer Jetstone even without the pliers, it's reasonable for them to make peace.

OTOH, I do agree with "whatever happened to "double the dog bowels?"" If it is possible to negotiate now, why not before? Maybe I guess because Tram really feels GK might turn over Wanda? I think we know they won't, but that's the only difference I see between now and before.

[joosy]

OTOH, I do agree with "whatever happened to "double the dog bowels?"" If it is possible to negotiate now, why not before? Maybe I guess because Tram really feels GK might turn over Wanda? I think we know they won't, but that's the only difference I see between now and before.

Before they were in no position to negotiate - any negotiation would have been with GK at the advantage. Also, they thought that they would be able to hold GK's seige heavy assault in time for Haggar's reinforcements. Unfortunately that was a foolamancy ruse to get them to pull their best and brightest out of the city.

Now, Jetstone is the one holding the cards - or at least they believe so for now. Taking out Wanda's group would be good short-term but they need a long-term survival plan if Jetstone is to recover.

[Lamech]

It appears from this that Charlie can NOT evesdrop on thinkagrams. Note how Tram can say nothing of the "plan", and he doesn't know Wanda was told to get them at the parely, and he doesn't realize Wanda's last order was to survive no matter what? Charlie didn't evesdrop on the thinkagram.

[gazes_also]

How terribly predictable of Tramennis; Charlie tells him it's far too dangerous for him to talk to Parson, so that's what he plans to do.
Charlie appears to be so scared that he's turned in to a blabbermouth, telling Tram everything - I don't believe that for a second. If Charlie had really wanted Tram not to talk to Parson, couldn't he have implanted the suggestion? He dangled the bait and Tram took it.

Tram is a diplomat - he assumes everyone is lying to him and whatever they say, the opposite is more likely to be true. Charlie is likely to be aware of this, he may have profiles of all senior member s of sides.
I suspect Charlie is improvising to regain control of the situation, remember he has next move.

We haven't seen a long range parley before - battle commanders are usually in the field when it happens, I still think my parley summoning spell bringing Parson to the battlefield theory has possibilities.

[Azukar]

Let me just say: when/if Trammenis and Parson meet, there will be sparks!

[Oberon]

But seriously, Trem dying would be about as surprising as the Erf skies splitting, and an Avatar of Rob ordering everyone to just get along.

And you think this, why? Because some reader poll listed Tram top 3 of who cares what? I think that you think that the author is led by reader opinion far more than I think that he is. Say that one three times fast!

"Gobwin Knob could still eventually crush the coalition, even without the ability to decrypt our fallen."

I, too, found this little tidbit to be very interesting. Tramennis thinks that GK even sans Wanda and 'Pliers may eventually be able to beat the coalition? This doesn't say much for the total city count of the RCCII!

Yes, this is why updates are taking so long, Rob and Xin are having to re-write things constantly because of our speculating. But what happens if we manage to guess every possible outcome? Let's find out!

Be careful! The last time all 9 billion names of God were discovered, all the stars went out.

I'm ... 90% sure Charlie *can't* [tap into Thinkagrams], and we're looking at the same evidence Oh well

There's nothing in the dossier that could not have come from non-thinkagram-wiretap sources.

Just remember that the dossier and Charlie's knowledge are not a one-to-one relationship. We have seen Charlie express complete certainty that Parson is going to destroy Jetstone. This certainty has a few options:

Simple paranoia, based only upon past experience: "They beat unbeatable odds before! They are sure to do it again!"

A calculated opinion, based upon intelligence gathering which the reader has not been made privy to expressly, but which has been demonstrated. By this I mean the intel Charlie had on the exact disposition of the forces at Haggar. Similar intel gathering can pretty much be assumed from now on for any Side Charlie is dealing with.

Or, if Charlie can indeed eavesdrop on Thinkagrams, Charlie could be reacting to Parson's Thinkagram conversation with Jack in Page 36. Summarized: Parson "You're sure that they will offer a parley? Jack "Yes, it's what Royals always do." Parson "Then that's when we get them." Jack "Um, that's when we get them?" Parson "Yes. We'll have a food fight." Jack "Welcome to insanity!"

If Charlie listened in on that, he wouldn't know what Parson planned, but he couldn't help but see the certainty with which Parson expressed his plan. The Thinkagram with Wanda expressed that the GK side would take its licks, but would win. If it worked. And Wanda expressed absolute certainty that it would work. Again, if Charlie listened in on that Thinkagram he would now have two conversations about a vague plan, but the overriding fact would be that both Parson and Wanda feel certain that it will carry the day. Carry the day, mind you, in a situation in which Jetstone, TV, and FAQ all believe that the outcome is completely inevitable: The destruction of the GK forces present at Spacerock.

As for talking to Parson being unsafe - well, you just have to avoid doing it "in-person"

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Thinkagram between Tramennis and Parson started out as a remote conversation, and ended up as a face to face conversation!

Charlie knows about the mathamancy bracer, so while his dossier calls him a Mathamancer Charlie in fact knows its an artifact that Parson uses.

I don't think we can say that Charlie is misrepresenting things here. Parson approached Charlie with a deal based on the opening question "How're you doing for Mathamancers these days, Charlie?" And then the deal involving the calculations. Charlie doesn't tell Tram via the dossier that Parson is a mathamancer, he says that he is some kind of mathamancer. All very fair and accurate information.

[ftl]

How terribly predictable of Tramennis; Charlie tells him it's far too dangerous for him to talk to Parson, so that's what he plans to do.
Charlie appears to be so scared that he's turned in to a blabbermouth, telling Tram everything - I don't believe that for a second. If Charlie had really wanted Tram not to talk to Parson, couldn't he have implanted the suggestion? He dangled the bait and Tram took it.

How would he have implanted the suggestion? I don't think we've yet seen a reason to believe that charlie can manipulate people *that* easily. (Somebody calling Charlie means Charlie can implant a suggestion to do what he wants - a bit unsupported at the moment. (Though, to be fair, Charlie *might* always get new powers out of his charlie hat.) )

(And, remember, the converse is also true - if Charlie had really wanted Tram to talk to Parson, he could have implanted THAT suggestion instead of going the reverse-psychology route.)

So I think that whichever way Charlie wanted Tram to lean, he had just his words to work with.

I do agree that Charlie becoming so scared that he becomes a blabbermouth is a little far-fetched. I agree that despite the apparent panic Charlie knows exactly how much information he's giving out had has reasons for all of it. He might be tapping the latest thinkagrams, but if he is he didn't tell Tramennis about those.

Tram is a diplomat - he assumes everyone is lying to him and whatever they say, the opposite is more likely to be true. Charlie is likely to be aware of this, he may have profiles of all senior member s of sides.
I suspect Charlie is improvising to regain control of the situation, remember he has next move.

Definitely agree about the last statement. So I see 2 options, both supportable:

1) Charlie wants Tram to talk to Parson and, knowing him, manipulates him into wanting to do so.
2) Charlie doesn't want Tram to talk to Parson and, not knowing him well (after all, he was always playing second fiddle to his brothers, and Charlie's been shut out of the RCC) messes up the manipulations.

We're as usual reduced to guessing blindly at Charlie's motives but I think you're onto something. There's been a little too much portrayal of Charlie apparently being buffeted around by everything. Is he really that out of it?

We haven't seen a long range parley before - battle commanders are usually in the field when it happens, I still think my parley summoning spell bringing Parson to the battlefield theory has possibilities.

It's plausible, but I think Parson has got to have another plan. After all, Tram would probably have to initiate or agree to that, and I don't think Parson would plan to have his enemy cooperate. ...on the other hand, he DID get Ossomer's assurance that they would parley before combat...

[Guppy]

Charlie knows about the mathamancy bracer, so while his dossier calls him a Mathamancer Charlie in fact knows its an artifact that Parson uses.

I imagine the file on Parson's Bracer artifact would only be available at extra cost

Trem would make another good decrypted warlord it would also be interesting to see him turn to GK's side.

Would he? From what we've seen, Ossomer and Sylvia's strategic advice is on the "syncophantic toady" level, under Wanda's control (But we've seen some good maneuvers by Ansom, though -- assuming the assault at Expository Bridge was his plan). How much of Trem's ability stems from his willingness to buck convention, and how much of that would survive the decryption?

And yet someone has to croak in this coming big fight. It has to be big to make an impact, and there's no better way to say 'big' than important people croaking.

If it's Jack, that will add a piquant touch to his last meeting with Jillian. At least we may get a chance to see how decrypted Casters turn out (I'm also curious, is Misty's the Lookamancer's body still buried there in Gobwin's Knob?). Could even be Sizemore, if they end up trying to storm Spacerock: The Tower through the portal.

I'm calling it right now:

Tre goes to parley with Wanda in the courtyard of the city. During the meeting, Parson arrives through the portal with Sizemore, who summons a few golems. With this force, they take the tower, and therefore capture the city. That means all units in the city garrison get taken prisoner, and shackles suddenly appear on their arms (like in Summer Update 34). This way, they capture the city, and Tre stays alive. No idea where they'll go from there.

From previous text updates, we know Trem's going to have all 4 of his casters in the Tower top (including the muscle-headed Ace Hardware with Action Grip Weapon), and they get a Tower bonus inside, which I assume Sizemore does not share. So Parson's going to have a fight on his hands. Well, Trem has a lot of non-garrison units in the city, so that'll lead to an interesting battle if Jetstone has to fight as an foreign attacker in their own city. It would also bring into play a couple of rule exceptions for Gobwin Knob (able to take-off & land off-turn into adjacent friendly city hex, able to range-attack across hex-boundary off-turn while defending).

Also, I think that's scenario is too simple. We've been getting hints that Parson's exploit(s) will involve combos of the following:

The border crossing restrictions (ranged attacks freezing in air).
The falling mechanic and air/ground boundary (falling objects and "dirtamancy bombs" crossing to ground).
Using falling as a way to cross boundaries off-turn (Issue #2 title: It's Raining Men).
The harvesting mechanic (animals being harvested for food), combined with Decryption.

I still don't have a really good sense of how this could be combined into a coherent plan, but here's a scenario:

Flyers attack with dropped arrows, Dirtamancy Bombs (previously mentioned in text update), Yellow Dwagon potshots.
Killed and Harvested units cross boundary and assault Tower from outside, while Parson/Sizemore attack inside.
Parson loses most of his units in the process, but they seize the tower, loot remaining treasury (which isn't much).
Guessing they don't get the King, as that would make things too easy.
City becomes Gobwin Knob. Jetstone Garrison-type units neutralized, but non-Garrison Jetstone army still active.
Wanda uses off-turn friendly-city landing exception to get inside and evacuate through the tower's Portal.
Cities can be upgraded off-turn. Assuming the inverse is true, and Parson downgrades it to Lvl 1.
Parson and any surviving casters evacuate through the Portal. Remainder of GK's forces perish to Jetstone Army.
End of turn, Jetstone gets their Lvl 1 city back, but ends up disbanding much of their army due to lack of funds.
Parson's strategic objective (preserve Wanda & Pliers) obtained, Stanley rages anyway.

[regisminae]

Xin, the dramatic increase in art quality from page 42 to 43 has been duly noted... your work is getting to be quite impressive!

Thank you for what you've done here, and I look forward to seeing what happens next.

[Almaseti]

I also wonder how off-balance Charlie is. I recall the summer update(talking about talking) where Charlie is fuming and threatening and trying to be scary, but Parson's all "woo, toilet paper! finally!" It seemed like Parson was getting under his skin, but we can't really be sure with Charlie, can we?

Which, actually, reminds me of Parson saying it would be a good time to do diplomacy, so Charlie could very well be fearing an alliance or somesuch.


Also, would I be tarred and feathered if I said I think I might sort of ship Parson and Trem now?

He's just so enthusiastic. And, considering how romance tends to work in Erfworld, I picture with great amusement a scene after they finalize the alliance (or non-aggression treaty, whatevs) and Trem casually hitting on Parson, and Parson being all wtf and completely out of his comfort zone all of a sudden, after all this badass strategizing, which of course amuses the crap out of Trem, so he keeps doing it to mess with him, and then things get a little out of control... anyway, I'd find it funny. Probably not going to happen that way, anyhow.

[Guppy]

I also wonder how off-balance Charlie is. I recall the summer update(talking about talking) where Charlie is fuming and threatening and trying to be scary, but Parson's all "woo, toilet paper! finally!" It seemed like Parson was getting under his skin, but we can't really be sure with Charlie, can we?

That was an interesting segment, where Parson's attitude towards Charlie totally changed from friendly to yeah, whatever. I assumed it was because Parson had finally spoken with the decrypted Archons -- learning how badly his Archons were abused for profit (while being mentally conditioned to love Charlie), and how Charlie stirred up wars for business -- and come to the conclusion that Charlie was a scumbag. I figure part of Charlie's freak-out is the fact that Parson knows all of these dirty-secrets.

Also, would I be tarred and feathered if I said I think I might sort of ship Parson and Trem now?

Battering Ram too Grand for the Gates, dude.

[atalex]

I would like to posit one theory on how Trem might survive. It's a longshot but I wanted to toss it out in case it comes to pass so I can claim to be brilliant. Here:
[url]
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-24.jpg[/url]

Parson expressly notes that no one has any idea what will happen if Slately dies while his heir is a Decrypted. He speculated that the side might fall or possibly even convert. Suppose it is the latter, only instead of all the JS forces instantly dying and then arising as Decrypted, they remain alive but become subject to a Duty towards GK (or at least to Ossomer and by extension Wanda). Parson, who is on the scene and who is averse to senseless killing, overrules Wanda's natural inclination to kill and Decrypts everyone in the city "just to make sure" and he sells it to Stanley as creating a force that's at least nominally loyal to GK but which is not Decrypted (which is starting to become a concern of Stanley's). Trem, as the last surviving Prince of Jetstone, is compelled to return to GK and serve under Parson. Everybody's happy ... except Charlie, of course.

[asweethero]

Also, would I be tarred and feathered if I said I think I might sort of ship Parson and Trem now?

Battering Ram too Grand for the Gates, dude.

imagine this scenario if your a D&D geek. imagine a halfling and ogre gay love tryst. it don't end well for the halfling.
but in all seriousness i think a friendship might develop which will screw with him later when Stanly forces him to kill tram. but that's as far as i see it going.

now for my own tar and feathering would i be totally sick and twisted for wanting a update being the "dossier" charlie sent i know it will never happen as it would either confirm or deny to much for the paranoid conspiracy nuts that thrive on this forum (which i will admit is the reason i come here the conspiracy's are fun to read)

now im curious on some input on this. jetstone might be willing to come to reasonable terms. and as good of a idea as it might be stanly the tool would NEVER relinquish a arkentool as he sees it his mandate to collect them all. parson KNOWS this and he also knows what would happen to him if in parlay he LET a arkentool AND his best caster get captured by the other side (remember logic, intelegence, and reality play NO part in Stanly thinking .... wow he IS just like my boss)i totally foresee parson entering this parlay explaining exactly why and how tram is screwed using his bracer to prove the point and cutting a deal that favors GK instead.

[Almaseti]

I also wonder how off-balance Charlie is. I recall the summer update(talking about talking) where Charlie is fuming and threatening and trying to be scary, but Parson's all "woo, toilet paper! finally!" It seemed like Parson was getting under his skin, but we can't really be sure with Charlie, can we?

That was an interesting segment, where Parson's attitude towards Charlie totally changed from friendly to yeah, whatever. I assumed it was because Parson had finally spoken with the decrypted Archons -- learning how badly his Archons were abused for profit (while being mentally conditioned to love Charlie), and how Charlie stirred up wars for business -- and come to the conclusion that Charlie was a scumbag. I figure part of Charlie's freak-out is the fact that Parson knows all of these dirty-secrets.

I don't know, the last comment seemed to imply that this had been building (or that Charlie wanted Parson to think it had been building) for a while now, not just a sudden freak-out, (and it seemed more like gradual frustration than sudden panic). And I don't know if Charlie would 1) necessarily be able to infer that Parson knew how the Archons were treated from that conversation but not before 2) think that it was dirty to use units in that way, since it sounds like it's not that unusual in Erfworld unless 2a) Charlie is also from Earth, and knows that Parson is too, and anyway would he 3) care if Parson thought he was a scumbag anyway? It's not like Charlie is playing to make friends.

Also, would I be tarred and feathered if I said I think I might sort of ship Parson and Trem now?

Battering Ram too Grand for the Gates, dude.

Hahaha. You clearly haven't read enough yaoi. Besides, why assume Parson tops?

[CorrTerek]

The interesting thing I noticed about this update is that Slately actually seems to be considering what Trem's saying. That's...unexpected.

[Guppy]

And I don't know if Charlie would 1) necessarily be able to infer that Parson knew how the Archons were treated from that conversation but not before 2) think that it was dirty to use units in that way, since it sounds like it's not that unusual in Erfworld unless 2a) Charlie is also from Earth, and knows that Parson is too, and anyway would he 3) care if Parson thought he was a scumbag anyway? It's not like Charlie is playing to make friends.

Charlie would assume #1 because what he himself would likely do, pump captured units for that sort of information. Likewise, #3 because Charlie himself would use such information for manipulation and blackmail, so it would be natural for him to assume Parson would do the same.

It's not like Charlie is playing to make friends.

Charlie has shown himself to be constantly concerned with his appearance and reputation, and excessively solicitous when dealing with friends (where friends = useful people).

[effataigus]

Well... Charlie did break his own rule... he gave out information for free.

And then Tram immediately started second guessing his motives

This might all be part of some Charlie scheme, but my money would be on"off-balance."