The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

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The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Nihila » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:43 pm

Hello. This is the second game I've GM'ed for this forum, and it is simply a continuation of the previous one. Twoy, Siralus, LTDave, and zilfallon, you can now post your units. Until further notice, Twoy's warlord will remain Chief Warlord. The rules for this game are the same as for the previous one, with the following exceptions:
Siege has been introduced. The Special cost is (Attack) for Siege.
Terrain capabilites have been introduced. The Special cost is (Hits*Move*.25) per Terrain Capability.
Flight has been separated from Move. The Special cost is (Hits*Move*.5) for Flying.
I've decided to renovate Scouting. After a certain amount of debate, I have revised it again, to {5+.5[Hits+(Attack*.5*Defense)]}. Scouts can scout a number of hexes equal to 1.5*Move.

Special Retaliation, credit to zilfallon for the idea.
Spoiler: show
Special Retaliation: When a hex contains more than one stack, each stack may protect another stack once per turn, dealing a modest amount of extra retaliation. The Special bonus for Special Retaliation is usually 50%. However, melee infantry stacks cannot use their Special Retaliation against ranged units, melee infantry can use their Special Retaliation against melee fliers which engage ground units, and while ranged stacks can use their Special Retaliation in any combat, if they use it in a combat which has one or more melee stacks, their Special bonus against the enemy stack is only at 25%, and they attack their own stack with a Special bonus of 12.5%. There must be a Warlord in the hex to use Special Retaliation.


Siege, credit to Sihoiba for how to manage Siege.
Warning: is long.
Spoiler: show
Fortifications provide a Defence bonus of (Hits*.02) to the units inside—this is a bonus of +1 per 50 Hits. This can—and does—cause units’ defence to rise above 8, making them invulnerable. This represents whether a wall is breached or not.
When a hex is scouted, the Hits of the Fortification(s) in that hex is(are) listed with the scouting results.
Fortifications have Hits, but no Attack, Move, or Defence score. Units with the Siege special can attack Fortifications.
Fliers can attack units inside fortifications, and the units inside have a Defence bonus of +2 in, which can be greater or less than the fortification’s Hits.
A Fortification is either defined as a “Wall” or a “Tower,” Walls can be attacked from the six hexes bordering them and Towers can be attacked only from within the hex they are in. Walls exist on all 6 hexsides, and each hexside has an independent number of Hits. A Tower destroyed when its Hits reach 0.
Walls prevent units from entering a hex, and a Tower hex costs all move for non-fliers to enter while held by Gobwin Knob.
Fortifications, once captured by the Alliance, can be repaired for pop points, with 1 pop point healing 1 Hit of the fortification.
More than one Fortification can exist in a hex. If this is the case, when such a hex is scouted, the stacks will be specified as being in one Fortification or another.
When a Fortification is held by the Alliance, it acts as an Road Hex for purposes of Move, and provides Defence bonuses to the Alliance units inside.


Terrain Stuff:
Open Hex—Cost 1 Movement for all units to cross
Woods Hex—Cost 2 Movement for Infantry, and 4 Movement for Cavalry
Hills Hex—Cost 2 Movement for all non-fliers
Swamp Hex—Cost 2 Movement for Infantry, 4 Movement for Cavalry
Road Hex—Ground Units (Infantry, Cavalry, Siege) that spend their entire move on a Road Hex may move 1 extra hex

If anyone is insane enough to want to read the whole rules again, here they are, but they are seriously really, really long.

Spoiler: show
Fliers do not take any movement penalties
Open Hex—Cost 1 Movement for all units to cross
Woods Hex—Cost 2 Movement for Infantry, and 4 Movement for Cavalry
Hills Hex—Cost 2 Movement for all non-fliers
Swamp Hex—Cost 2 Movement for Infantry, 4 Movement for Cavalry
Road Hex—Ground Units (Infantry, Cavalry, Siege) that spend their entire move on a Road Hex may move 1 extra hex

The final Broad Way fortification is at J10—it must be captured for the Alliance to win.

Allied Troops enter the map at A1.

Units may use another unit as a Mount IF the Mount has twice or more the starting hits of the units being carried. For example, a Gobwin with 3 hits may use a creature with 6 or more hits as a mount. This will only be helpful if the larger unit has a higher move value. 3 Gobwins could ride on a Mount with 18 or more hits. Heavy units (units with more than 7 Hits) cannot ride other units.

Garrison units may never move, even on mounts.

Design Your Force:
As in the Comic, Units have four stats – Move, Attack, Defence, and Hits.

Move is the number of hexes a unit can move on the strategic map – Value 0 to 5.

Attack is the Combat value of the unit, whether attacking or being attacked.

Defence has changed in this game. It now represents the Armour/Dodge value of the unit. It is the capacity of the unit to avoid taking hits. Basically, a value of 5 means that 5 out of 8 hits against a stack will be ignored.

Hits are the amount of damage a unit can take before being croaked. Hits are restored to full at the beginning of the side’s turn.

For the purposes of this game, Players will design their own unit types. Each Player can have up to five distinct unit types, each with their own stats. These cannot be changed as the game progresses, so be careful in design.
Some simple rules on design:
1. Movement of 0 is Garrison. Movement of 1 or 2 is Infantry; Movement of 3-5 is Cavalry. Units may not have move higher than 5 in this game. Flying is no longer based on move, it is now a Special.
2. Units may not have Attack values more than one and half times hits (rounded up) – So a unit with 3 hits could have 5 attacks.
3. Units may have a defence value between 0 and 5, but may not have defence higher than hits.
4. Hits are related to size. So a unit with 1 hit is tiny (like a bat or bird), 3 is small (like a Gobwin), 5 is average (like a Human or Elf), 10 is big (Horse or Twoll), 20 is large (Dwagon or Golem), 30 is huge (Giants, etc). A unit may have more than 30 hits, but the costs involved will be ridiculous.
5. The cost of the unit is equal to all the following formula:
Cost = [(HITS²/4)+(ATTACK+DEFENCE)] x0.5+[(HITS x MOVE)x0.5]+SPECIAL

Special is [5+(Hits+Attack*Defence)] for Scouts, 20 for Commanders. Special = Attack for ranged.
Special is (Hits*Move*.25) per Terrain Capability, Special is (Hits*Move*.5) for Flying.
Special is (Attack) for Siege.

Each Player has 500 points worth of units at the beginning of the game. Players must post their unit types and stats on the forum.

Commanders:
A Commander is a unit, like Ansom or Zamussels in the Comic. Each Player must have at least one Commander.
In the Comic, Commanders are all roughly “Human”. Therefore, no Commander may have more than 6 hits, or less than 3.

In addition, Commanders have a “Level”. When the Commander is created, the GM will determine the level – on a d10, 1-2 is level 1, 3-5 level 2, 6-7 level 3, 8-9 level 4, 10 level 5.
Each time a Commander is in a winning combat (ie, inflicts more hits than the opponent), the Commander gains 1 experience point. The Commander may go to the next level if they have experience points equal to the next level (ie, to go from level 3 to 4, the Commander must have 4 experience points).

Commanders increase the attack and defence values of the units they are stacked with, and may issue orders. Only units in the same hex as a Commander may move in a turn.


Combat:
In the comic, Parson says that Combat in Erfworld has a simple mechanic, and the key to victory is multipliers, not addition. The following system attempts to replicate that.

Units fight together in Stacks. In Combat, Total all ATTACK values points for the first eight units in the stack. Flyers may not stack with non-Flyers (unless the non-Flyers are using the Flyers as Mounts).

Commander Bonuses – for each level of the Commander in the stack, increase the Command Bonus by 0.1. Commanders do not have to be listed in the first 8 units to add this bonus. If there is no Commander, the Bonus remains at 1.0.
The Chief Warlord is a Special Commander. In any hex with a Chief Warlord, the Leadership bonus of all Allied stacks is increased by 0.1.

Terrain Bonus – Some terrain increases Defence values. Fortifications also increase this number. In attack, this is always 0. In Defence, Open is 0, Hills and Woods are 1, Swamps are 2. Fortifications use a separate set of rules, listed later. Flying units never get Terrain Bonuses, and always count this as a 0. Total Defence values for all units in the stack, and then divide by the number of units to get the average. Add in any the Terrain Bonus. This is the number of enemy attacks negated by armour, dodge, fortifications, etc. {So Average Defence of 4 and Terrain Bonus of 1 means that 5 out of 8 hits will be negated}.

Woods & Flyers: in the Comic, Flying units may not be attacked by ground units in woods unless the ground unit is “Woods” capable.

Ranged units on the Defensive inflict hits before the enemy has a chance to attack. Ranged units on the offensive may inflict hits, and, if the unit has move remaining, may leave the hex before the opposing stack retaliates. If a ranged unit attacks a ranged unit, combat is simultaneous. In order to use a ranged attack, the entire stack must be ranged. Non-Ranged Commanders may add a Leadership bonus only to a stack of Ranged units – obviously do not use their Attacks. Ranged stacks must always choose to engage an enemy ranged stack (if possible) before attacking a non-ranged stack.

Special Bonus – Specials include Dancefighting, Ditto-Mancy, etc. Default is 1.0. Rules for these will come as the game develops. In each combat after the first, this Special Bonus is halved. That is, a stack is attacked by two stacks. In the second calculation, the Defender’s special bonus value drops to 0.5. In a third combat, the value would drop to 0.25, and so on.
The only exception to this is if the Defending unit succeeds in ‘wiping out’ the attacking stack – ie, all attacking units are croaked. In this event, the Defending stack acts as though it had not fought any combats.

Ambush Bonus – units that enter a hex without scouting can be ambushed. The Ambush value ranges from 1.0 (no ambush) to 2.0 (ambush).

Random Number – not every combat point means a hit. The Random Number adds a bit of luck to the mix. On (2d6+8)/20, 2 is 50%, 7 is 75%, 12 is 100%, etc.

Use the following formula to work out how many hits have been inflicted on the enemy:

Hits = Total Attack X Command Bonus X Special Bonus X Ambush Bonus X Random Number X (8 - Opposition Average Defence - Terrain Bonus) / 8

Round result down to nearest whole number.

Special Retaliation: When a hex contains more than one stack, each stack may protect another stack once per turn, dealing a modest amount of extra retaliation. The Special bonus for Special Retaliation is usually 50%. However, melee infantry stacks cannot use their Special Retaliation against ranged units, melee infantry can use their Special Retaliation against melee fliers which engage ground units, and while ranged stacks can use their Special Retaliation in any combat, if they use it in a combat which has one or more melee stacks, their Special bonus against the enemy stack is only at 25%, and they attack their own stack with a Special bonus of 12.5%.
There must be a Warlord in the hex to use Special Retaliation.

The opposing stack takes the number of hits inflicted. Units are destroyed based on their stacking order – first unit listed takes maximum hits, before the next is wounded.
Exception – a stack led in attack by a Commander may direct hits at any unit in the opposing stack, but the unit takes TWICE as many hits to croak as it normally would. Opposing Commanders take FOUR TIMES as many hits to croak as normal if targeted. Obviously the first unit in a stack will never need to be targeted.

The Alliance Turn:
The Alliance turn is broken into two phases – Scout, and Move / Combat. At the beginning of the game, the Alliance players will elect one of their own to be Chief Warlord. It is the responsibility of the Chief to declare an end to the Scout Phase, and to the Move / Combat phase, which will end the turn. In the event that a Player has not posted orders within 72 hours (three days) of the beginning of a phase, the Chief Warlord may issue orders on their behalf and end the Phase.

Scout Phase:
Players may create units with a special scout ability.

In the Scout phase, any scout unit in the same hex as a Commander may be given orders to inspect a string of adjacent hexes equal to the unit’s move plus one-half the unit's move. The unit remains in the original hex – it simply inspects the hexes (how it does this is left entirely up to your imagination). The Scout unit moves in the Movement phase.

In the Scout Phase, players give orders to their scout units. Once the Chief Warlord declares an end to the Scout Phase, the GM will examine the orders and update the map with information from hexes inspected. Scout units may then move their full allowance in the Move / Combat phase.

Figure 1:
Scout unit S has three move, and has the following orders – inspect NW (Northwest), inspect SW (Southwest), inspect S (South).

Scout unit S2 has two move, and has the following orders – inspect SW, inspect SE.



Both units remain in the starting hex, and may move 3 and 2 hexes respectively in the Move / Combat phase.

During the Scout Phase, the Chief Warlord may be given a number of points to distribute between the players. The Players may then nominate a set of units to “pop” at the beginning of the Scout Phase. These units pop in either B10 or i10.

Move and Combat Phase:
Once the GM has reported on the actions of scouts, the Movement and Combat phase begins. Players may issue orders to units in the same hex as a Commander. Units may move into any hex, but if a unit moves into a hex that has not been scouted, it may be ambushed if enemy forces are present.

Commanders may move units to pass on orders to other units – so a stack at a distance could be reached by another unit that passes on instructions.

Commanders may move into a hex, issue orders to units there, and then move on again.

Units may be sent to attack enemy units. Players should use the spreadsheet provided to calculate the combat results. Each Unit may attack once per turn.

Units gain advantages by stacking together. It is possible to attack the same stack multiple times, but each stack in a hex must be attacked before any stack is attacked more than once.

For Example:
A hex contains two stacks – Stack “A” of 8 gobwins, and stack “B” of 6 gobwins.
In order for Alliance troops to attack Stack “A” twice, stack “B” must be attacked at least once.

Players may move in any order, and may move and fight with all or some of their units at any one time.

If a stack has movement left after combat, it may move to an adjacent hex.

End of Turn:
The Alliance turn ends when the Chief Warlord declares it over. The Chief Warlord should post on the forum and send a Private Message to the GM. At the end of the Alliance turn, all units on both sides that have partial hits are healed.

Opposition Turn:
The forces of Gobwin Bump move at the discretion of the GM. Any results that impact on the Alliance players will be posted on the forum. Once the Gobwin Bump turn is over, the Alliance players may begin their Scout phase.

Fortification Rules:
Fortifications provide a Defence bonus of (Hits*.02) to the units inside—this is a bonus of +1 per 50 Hits. This can—and does—cause units’ defence to rise above 8, making them invulnerable. This represents whether a wall is breached or not.
When a hex is scouted, the Hits of the Fortification(s) in that hex is(are) listed with the scouting results.
Fortifications have Hits, but no Attack, Move, or Defence score. Units with the Siege special can attack Fortifications.
Fliers can attack units inside fortifications, and the units inside have a Defence bonus of +2 in, which can be greater or less than the fortification’s Hits.
A Fortification is either defined as a “Wall” or a “Tower,” Walls can be attacked from the six hexes bordering them and Towers can be attacked only from within the hex they are in. Walls exist on all 6 hexsides, and each hexside has an independent number of Hits. A Tower destroyed when its Hits reach 0.
Walls prevent units from entering a hex, and a Tower hex costs all move for non-fliers to enter while held by Gobwin Knob.
Fortifications, once captured by the Alliance, can be repaired for pop points, with 1 pop point healing 1 Hit of the fortification.
More than one Fortification can exist in a hex. If this is the case, when such a hex is scouted, the stacks will be specified as being in one Fortification or another.
When a Fortification is held by the Alliance, it acts as an Road Hex for purposes of Move, and provides Defence bonuses to the Alliance units inside.


My units were posted in the previous thread, but are:
As always, my units are in H-A-D-M format.
Spoiler: show
Decrypted Infantry: 4-4-4-2, Cost=10. "The bread-and-butter of every army, Infantry is a cheap, valuable source of melee protection. In the case of Decrypted Infantry, we have the bread-and-butter pulled out of every army and put into nice, new livery."
Decrypted Archery: 4-6-0-2, Ranged, Cost=15. "Archers are an excellent force to have in an army, able to perform hit-and-runs on melee stacks. For all your Chief Warlord assassination needs, nothing beats the Mounted Archer!"
Decrypted Sourmander: 8-8-5-3, Ranged, Cost=35. "Sourmanders are a keystone in Jetstone's army. However, these Sourmanders are fighting against Jetstone's ally, so there is something wrong here."
Dwagon: 16-24-4-5, Ranged, Flight, Cost=150. "Dwagons are the signature of Gobwin Knob. Tamed by one Arkentool, they are used in conjunction with another Arkentool's units to provide devastating damage."
Decrypted Cheezburger: 30-10-5-2, Cost=150. "It would appear that an attack on the PRLC is underway, because Decrypted Cheezburgers have appeared, fighting against the MCC:N."
Decrypted Fawie: 2-3-0-5, Ranged, Flying, Cost=15. "Tiny archers, they lie in wait in bogs and forests to hunt humans."
Decrypted Orange Lancer: 6-6-5-5, Cost=35. "Orange Lancers are the signature unit of Unaroyal. However, their name loses some effect when they are Decrypted."
Machine Gun: 13-19-1-0, Ranged, Cost=50. "Unaroyal Defensive artillery, these are placed in the heavily entrenched sections of the Broad Way. Though they should have been destroyed on being captured, most Dirtamancers can repair them."
Decrypted Flutterbys: 8-10-5-3, Ranged, Flying, Cost=50. "Slow moving flying mounts, their wings are covered in scales which are fired at their foes."
Decrypted Horse Artillery: 8-12-4-5, Ranged, Siege, Cost=60. "Is Gobwin Knob attacking Escotia as well? Those uniforms are definitely in Escotian style, if in different colors..."


And, the map, credit to Siralus for making it.
Spoiler: show
Image


Credit to LTDave for most of the rules. Credit to Twoy for the cost formula. The purpose of this game is to test whether or not Siege works, with some Terrain Capabilities and Special Retaliation on the side. Thanks for keeping with me! Oh, and, almost last but not least, the campaign blurb:
Though the Northern Alliance successfully destroyed the Gobwin Knob forces on the Northern Orchart Plains, they have now come upon a wasteland of Forests, Swamps, and Hills. There is a single, massive road stretching from Orgchart to their base camp, and they know that three great Unaroyal fortifications await them. This is the Broad Way, the last line of defence against the Mono Polians, Unaroyal's oldest enemy. The fortifications fell into disuse following GK's first capture of the city, and the RCC I cleared them easily. However, the fortresses which dominate and control the Broad Way now seem to be in excellent repair. Worse yet, Gobwin Knob has not only the murderous defences of the fortresses, but Mistress Wanda has fielded 5 other types of Decrypted units to defend the Broad Way.

Edit: A reminder, the Alliance still has 4 Magic Items to claim. And, I've changed Scouting even more--you now can scout Move*1.5 hexes per turn.
Doombat's Utility Belt: For purposes of mounting (both while mounting and while being mounted), Commander is considered to have twice regular Hits.
Hat of Weightlessness: For purposes of mounting, Commander is considered to have one-half regular Hits.
Looking Glass: Commander can scout any hex during the Scout Phase, for 1 Move. This can be done until Commander runs out of Move.
Mirror, Sword, and Shield: Reduce's Commander's Move by 1. Adds 1 Hit to Commander, both for Mounting and Combat. Adds 2 Attack to Commander. Allows Commander to scout any hex in the scout phase, for 2 Move. This can be done until Commander runs out of Move.

Have fun, all.
Last edited by Nihila on Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby zilfallon » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:25 pm

Pit Commander has decided:

Imp: Move 5, Hits 1, Attack 1, Defence 0 + Scout + Flight >> 12 each
"Weakest of devils, useful for nothing other than springing traps and looking around."

Bezekiwa: Move 3, Hits 6, Attack 8, Defence 5 + Woods Capable >> 22 each
"A tall and muscular humanoid, with green skin and pitch black eyes, wielding a spear."

Abyssal Cannon: Move 1, Hits 12, Attack 14, Defence 2 + Siege >> 46 each
"This cannon is engraved with many runes and shoots molten rock."

Ewinyes: Move 2, Hits 4, Attack 6, Defence 2 + Ranged >> 16 each
"A beautiful female, human-looking devil, with red skin and eyes, and black hair, carrying a bow shooting fiery arrows."

Cownugon: Move 2, Hits 14, Attack 18, Defence 5 + Woods Capable>> 57 pts each
"3 meters tall, with black skin and scales as strong as armor, wielding a pitch black scythe as tall as himself, these creatures
are the ultimate Avewnus infantry, towering over most devils and bested only by Pit Fiends."


Hellflame Dwakes and Dwake Commander Vis are called back to Avewnus. Commander Agrach is left in charge. Pit Commander has decided to deploy no fliers. An elite stack of Cownugon's will be led by Commander Agrach.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh and, this post may seem quite "official", but i actually have my doubts. Pit Commander has trouble deciding if he should deploy Bezekiwa or Bwone Devils, or both, replacing Ewinyes with Bwone Devils, or something else... I just posted this, so if i take too long deciding, you guys just assume this is it and go.

Confirmed.

Edit: Also, if it is decided that Commander Agrach gets "Mirror, Sword and Shield" then I might decide on removing Ewinyes and bringing in some Hellflame Dwagons for Agrach to mount :D
Last edited by zilfallon on Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Twoy » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:27 am

So, I created a scout unit to fix the "problem" we had on the northern plains.

My scout unit looked like this:
Phoenix:
Move: 5 Scout
Hits: 5
Att: 8 Ranged
Def: 5
Cost: 40

With your new rule, cost for the phoenix goes up to 100.

My sparrowhawks from the last battle now cost 2 pop points less than before; however, they had a slight survival problem.
Sparrowhawk x 5
Move: 5 Scout
Hits: 1
Att: 1 Ranged
Def: 1
Cost: Before->15; Now ->13.

The best scouts we had in the northern plains were the Outriders. They actually survived for more than 2 turns.
Outriders:
Move: 4 Scout
Hits: 5
Att: 5
Def: 5
Cost: 28

Cost with the new rules is 73.

I think you need to reconsider the scout rules.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Nihila » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:59 am

And, the Phoenix and Sparrowhawks have 8 scouting range, the Outrider has 6, and you have two magic items geared towards scouting. Although, Scouts do need to buy Flight to be much use in this game, so your Sparrowhawk has the same cost as it used to, just 1.5x the range.

I'm somehow failing to see a problem here. I'm charging you guys nothing for a range extension of 3 hexes per scout.

The Outriders survived because they were in a stack with powerful units, and they died once they were within Warlord range of my base camp.

And, once you take a Fortification, it becomes very hard to hit your scouts. I need to pull in siege equipment or attack your stacks with a huge defense bonus. It might be hard to tell, but those Fortifications are 5 hexes apart--you can use one to scout another.

Of course, my analysis of Fortifications ignores Special Retaliation. If you have two or more stacks in the fortification(basically a given) and at least 1 Warlord(also a given), then my attacking units not only have to deal with your defense, but also with the other stacks in the hex. I mean, sure, if a Fortification is left completely empty except for scouts, then I'll slip around your lines and take it. Otherwise? Not happening.

Edit: Where I am willing to compromise is the cost of the smallest possible scout. Maybe, because Flight costs 2 for a tiny scout with 1 Hit and 5 Move, the cost of the Scouting special should be 3+(Hits+Attack*Defense).

This makes the minimum possible cost for a scout 10. Which is the cost of the old scouting special. Sound alright? Should we switch over to my Flight_Modified Scouting Cost Formula?
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby LTDave » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:53 am

Infantry 4 HITS 6 ATTACK 4 DEFENCE 2 MOVE 0 SPECIAL {none} 11 Cost
Archer 4 HITS 6 ATTACK 4 DEFENCE 2 MOVE 6 SPECIAL {ranged} 17 Cost
Scout 4 HITS 6 ATTACK 0 DEFENCE 2 MOVE 15 SPECIAL {ranged, scout} 24 Cost
Captain 6 HITS 8 ATTACK 5 DEFENCE 2 MOVE 29 SPECIAL {commander, ranged} 46 Cost
Shield Ogre 12 HITS 15 ATTACK 5 DEFENCE 2 MOVE 0 SPECIAL {siege} 40 Cost

The Generics of Generica have been designed to be much more, well, generic. Gone are the fancy names like "Guardsman" and "Outriders."

Captain-General Genericus will return, but I have two questions:
* Do we start with another 500 points?
* I can't see the map - is it missing?

And we Generics have no desire to have any of the magic items. Let the other Alliance partners use them.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Twoy » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:49 am

I think your analysis of why the outriders were able to survive longer is not completely accurate. The Outriders had five times as many hits meaning that you had to devote 5 times the resources to assassinate one of them. They also had five times the defense which means they could stak with a powerful stack and not decrease the overall defense of the stack. Yes, they died when they got close to you base camp, but they allowed us to scout without being ambushed across the center third of the map. If we had replaced those two Outriders with sparrowhawks at the beginning of the game, I am fairly certain that you would have been able to come up with the resources to destroy much earlier than you actuall did.

I think your new rule just does not address the actual problem. With the modified formula th Outriders still cost 71 points versus 28 points last game.

Also, with the new flight rule, the cost of my Griffon Riders increases from 63 to 88 points. If the purpose of the flying rule is to have more ground combat, then it will progably serve it's purpose.

What I really can't live with is more than doubling the cost of the Outriders, when GK gets free unlimited scouting. Having inexpensive flying scouts is not going to help us if we are not able to stack them with powerful stacks and give them more hits and defense.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby zilfallon » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:02 am

Twoy has a point, nihila. This new scouting formula just widened the gap of information between us and GK, while it had to narrow it.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Nihila » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:27 am

Twoy wrote:I think your analysis of why the outriders were able to survive longer is not completely accurate. The Outriders had five times as many hits meaning that you had to devote 5 times the resources to assassinate one of them. They also had five times the defense which means they could stak with a powerful stack and not decrease the overall defense of the stack. Yes, they died when they got close to you base camp, but they allowed us to scout without being ambushed across the center third of the map. If we had replaced those two Outriders with sparrowhawks at the beginning of the game, I am fairly certain that you would have been able to come up with the resources to destroy much earlier than you actuall did.
Hm. I'm unconvinced, because the real reason in my mind not to attack them on an earlier turn was twofold--a)No ranged stack could attack the Generican stack and survive, and b)Without a Warlord, I couldn't hit those Outriders anyways. That logic would have held true if they had been Sparrowhawks. I simply didn't have the resources to fight you guys on open ground after I lost Scalpel and those 8 Dwagons.
LTDave wrote:Scout 4 HITS 6 ATTACK 0 DEFENCE 2 MOVE 15 SPECIAL {ranged, scout} 24 Cost
This scout can scout 5 hexes along roads--it can move 3 hexes on roads per turn, so it can scout 5 under my new rule. Though, because it has no Terrain Capabilities, it can scout 2 off-road hexes per turn.
zilfallon wrote:Imp: Move 5, Hits 1, Attack 1, Defence 1 + Scout + Flight >> 14 each
And this can scout 8 hexes no matter what terrain it's scouting.
If this is what widening an information gap looks like--giving you guys the ability to effectively halve my ability to surprise you--I'm interested to see what narrowing it looks like. (Note: the figure of "halve" is mostly my instinct, but also this: I've pulled off a good number of ambushes this game. All of those happened because of one of two things: you were careless with your scouts (leaving them in separate stacks, etc.) or because I knew where you could scout and kept out of that range. This is not a valid tactic anymore. I would need to relay my units in to attack a scout stack. That would take forever. I could use my 6-effective move Orange Lancers to carry Fawies in to attack... but so what? A stack of 2-Hit, 3-Attack units? Not the scariest thing I've ever heard of.
(Why don't I use my Dwagons? Too high cost. Fliers gain a lot of advantages on this map, so they should cost more.))
Twoy wrote:The Outriders had five times as many hits meaning that you had to devote 5 times the resources to assassinate one of them.
This analysis is not quite equivalent. At one point, I used a Dwagon to croak an Imp. A Dwagon! That could safely croak an Outrider in one-to-one combat, before the Outrider engaged! I was not being cold and efficient at picking off scouts, I was using whatever was available. I used Sourmanders to croak Sparrowhawks! A Sourmander has the cost of zilfallon's old Bezekiwa Commander. Once again, in a one-to-one fight, a Sourmander could do a good number on an Outrider, and the pair I used to croak the Sparrowhawks could easily have croaked an Outrider or two. That's not really demonstrating that I would have had to use 5 times as many resources, its demonstrating that I need cheaper Scout Assassins more than anything else.
Twoy wrote:I am fairly certain that you would have been able to come up with the resources to destroy much earlier than you actuall did.
Unlikely. I was only once able to croak scouts stacked at the bottom of stacks, and I had to use a Ranged led stack to do so. It takes a good amount of resources to pop a led stack. I simply cannot pop Warlords at the rate that an effective Ranged stack can croak them. And as I said before, it doesn't really matter to me whether the scout has 1 hit or 5, a Sourmander or two will make it go away unless its well stacked. What I would do, under the new rules, is have two Ranged stacks, each led, in a hex. Two melee stacks, each also led, in the same hex. Scouts distributed around, each stack reasonably powerful. Which one do I attack? The ranged stack? Well, due to the rules of common sense, I have to send in a Ranged stack to attack a Ranged stack. And then take 1.5x damage that I inflict, because damage will be simultaneous. Ouch. So, maybe pass on attacking the ranged stacks... go for one of the melee. Oops. Same problem. I need to outnumber you by at least one stack every time that I attack, and I'm starting with 60% of the pop points that you do. I won't be able to have one more stack than you unless something really weird happens.

I'm sorry if and when this sounds a little frustrated (or a lot frustrated), but I'm just not sure that you quite understand how much I'm trying to gear the rules to make scouts more powerful. I could also start talking about fortifications--which raise the effective defense of a stack, and "a stack" includes "stacks with scouts in them"--but that would take a long time. Is there anything I can do to make scouts more powerful? Have a simple cost to the scouting thing? What cost? A cost of 10 triples the cost of small scouts, but to a Diwigible, it looks like nothing. Higher costs cripple small scouts, lower costs encourage larger ones.
Should I perhaps make scouting free and give you knowledge of the entire map at the beginning of each turn? How many extra pop points can I give myself for that? Keep in mind, I literally cannot win this game, I can only make it hard for you to do so. Maybe we should have equal information, but Fortifications are permanently destroyed when captured and we start with equal pop points. That seems fair to me. (There are a few caveats for you in this option. Like "I have fortifications, you don't".)
What, besides giving scouts the ability to scout out 1.5x hexes--more, for ground scouts--can make scouts more powerful? The new Generican Scout can scout more (road) hexes than the old Outrider, for almost the same cost. Actually, for less cost.
{Once again, sorry about ranting.}
Yes, you start with another 500 pop points.
Um... here's a link to the map:http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3221/battleforsomewhere.png
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby HerbieRai » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:09 am

Nihila wrote:That's not really demonstrating that I would have had to use 5 times as many resources, its demonstrating that I need cheaper Scout Assassins more than anything else.


I was under the impression that what made the outriders live longer was the fact they weren't flying. The sperrowhawks could only stack with other fliers, which were already high priority, expensive targets, and less numerous. The outriders can stack with other ground units, which are more numerous, more powerful (assuming same point cost as fliers), and lower priority due to the lower speed. To kill the outriders, you may need to use more resources than scout assassins.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Nihila » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:15 am

HerbieRai wrote:
Nihila wrote:That's not really demonstrating that I would have had to use 5 times as many resources, its demonstrating that I need cheaper Scout Assassins more than anything else.


I was under the impression that what made the outriders live longer was the fact they weren't flying. The sperrowhawks could only stack with other fliers, which were already high priority, expensive targets, and less numerous. The outriders can stack with other ground units, which are more numerous, more powerful (assuming same point cost as fliers), and lower priority due to the lower speed. To kill the outriders, you may need to use more resources than scout assassins.
Actually, this is an interesting point. I have been thinking that I would let fliers mount non-fliers in my game, because there's no reason that they shouldn't be able to. Or at least, none that I've seen. That would allow Sparrowhawks to use Minotaurs and the like for protection... which I think might also help the scouting thing. Or at least, I hope it will.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Twoy » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:17 am

I can tell you feel strongly about your new cost calculations, but I want to try one more time. Below is the unit I would like to pop. How much do you think it should cost?

Phoenix:
Move: 5
Hits: 5
Att: 8
Def: 5
Fly
Scout
Ranged

I think 40 pop points is a fairly good cost. Not so cheap that I can fill the map with them, but not so expensive that I cannot afford to pop one or two in my starting units. I think 111 points is way too expensive. Yes, I could choose to pop a different type of unit, but I think the rules should be flexible enough to allow the players to create a variety of units. Not all scouts should have to be bats, sparrows and rats.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Nihila » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:35 am

We'll compromise. Call it 50 or 60 points. Now, time to reverse engineer scouting cost from that. Let's see... base cost for a 5-8-5-5 unit with flight is 34.625, so about 35. Add ranged. Roughly 43. So, that leaves scouting with a cost between 7 and 17 points. Time to throw scouting formulae around until one hits in that range.
Current: 5+(Hits+Attack*Defense)=50. Too expensive.
Proposal I: 5+.5*[Hits+Attack*(Defense/2)]=17.5. Looks too expensive until we recall that I rounded up earlier in the calculation, so the end cost of the Phoenix is 60.125, which rounds to 60. This will, however, allow/force zilfallon and LTDave to revise their proposed scouts. I agree that scouts should be able to contribute to the defense of a stack, which is why it is divided by 2.

I'll add the new formula to my first post, but I'll leave the old formula here for people who want to look at the original idea.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby zilfallon » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:24 pm

Nihila, you're saying that imps are good because of their speed and flight, but they are as weak as possible. sure, they are cheap, but we can't teleport them from our base. you said we lost my imps since we kept them in seperate stacks last game. wrong. first 5 imps were stacked together. then we seperated them, and we didn't stack them with dwakes or such, since they'd just ruin the stacks avarage defence and make them squishy. When one of your attacks croaked 6 dwakes, Vis and 2 dwakes survived. But if i had an imp stacked with them, to "protect" the imp, i'd have lost 1 more dwake. Imps are 1 hit 1 def, they can be croaked no matter where they are.

Also, you said that you had to use sourmanders and such to croak our scouts and then lost them, but really, when the only unit you were striking was 5 move scouts, you shouldn't have expected a different outcome.

But anyway, new scouting formula seems better. I don't think i'll remake the imps though, they are how they are supposed to be, weak, small, squishy.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Twoy » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:37 pm

The new proposal looks much better; however, there is still a problem with it. Or maybe it's a feature, not sure. (See what happens when the scout's def is 0).

Proposal I: 5+.5*[Hits+Attack*(Defense/2)]

Let's plug LTDave's generic scouts into the equations.

Scout 4 HITS 6 ATTACK 0 DEFENCE 2 MOVE 15 SPECIAL {ranged, scout} 24 Cost

Base cost: 5+4=9
Ranged=6
Scout=5.5
Total=20.5

I can live with that. The disadvantage of having any unit with a 0 defence deserves any advantage it can get.

I am going to have to create a whole new army, though. My current plan will not survive the increased cost of flying units, but I don't think I can martial an effective argument since I do believe that flying should be a special. I will post something before I go to sleep tonight.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Nihila » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:47 pm

Twoy wrote:The new proposal looks much better; however, there is still a problem with it. Or maybe it's a feature, not sure. (See what happens when the scout's def is 0).
That is deliberate. The whole thing is designed so that a 1-1-0-5 scout has a scouting cost of 6. So, a defense 0 Scout is what this formula is designed to handle. Though, the cost of scouting for the Scout should be 7, not 5.5, so that cost rises to 22. The order of operations is the (Attack*Defense*.5) first, then Hits is added to that, then that number is halved, then 5 is added to whatever you have at the end.

So, LTDave's Scout now has an even lower cost than before.

And yeah, I agree about the cost of flying, I just couldn't really think of a more elegant way to implement it. The fighting will be on the ground, with fliers as supplementary forces--the main advantage of fliers will be their ability to outflank fortresses, I'm thinking.

Don't forget about the 4 shinies. :D
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby zilfallon » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:49 pm

It seems i will remake my forces too, "sigh"

Edit: First post has been changed. Pit Commander has decided to keep Fallen Angels in Avewnus and spare a small stack of cownugons, apperantly. But it may change anytime, and the note in the end of first post is still valid. (sentence saying that it needs confirmation)
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Twoy » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:30 pm

Check my math please, because I'm sure it is wrong. I even searched on the internet for "order of operations," but probably still got something wrong.

Mole x 2=76
Spoiler: show
Move: 2 Scout 3
Hits: 5
Att: 8 Ranged
Def: 5
Cost: 38

Base: 14.125
Scout: 16.25
Ranged: 8

Faun Archers x 5=110
Spoiler: show
Move: 2
Hits: 5
Att: 8 Ranged
Def: 5
Cost: 22

Base: 14.125
Ranged: 8

King Edmund x 1=42
Spoiler: show
Move: 2
Hits: 5
Att: 8 Ranged
Def: 5
Cost: 42

Base: 14.125
Ranged: 8
Warlord: 20

Minotaurs x 2=126
Spoiler: show
Move: 2
Hits: 10
Att: 15 Ranged, Siege
Def: 5
Cost: 63

Base: 32.5
Ranged: 15
Siege: 15

Badger x 3=90
Spoiler: show
Move: 2
Hits: 5
Att: 8 Ranged, Siege
Def: 5
Cost: 30

Base: 14.125
Ranged: 8
Siege: 8

Sir Badger x 1=50
Spoiler: show
Move: 2
Hits: 5
Att: 8 Ranged, Siege
Def: 5
Cost: 50

Base: 14.125
Ranged: 8
Siege: 8
Warlord: 20

Diwigible
Spoiler: show
Move: 5
Hits: 100
Att: 150 Ranged Siege
Def: 5
Cost: 2,128

Base: 1,577.5
Ranged: 150
Siege: 150
Fly: 250

Stack 1: Faun Archers x 5, Mole x 2, King Edmund. Cost=228.
Stack 2: Minotaurs x 2, Badger x 3, Sir Badger. Cost=266.
6 points left.
Last edited by Twoy on Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby zilfallon » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Twoy, that diwigible cannot exist. Read rules, a unit can't have more than 30 hits.
Also, Commander Agrach dibs on Mirror, Sword and Shield if no other warlord is interested. He's going to lead a full stack of big units. We won't be doing any mounting, so he can't use the others.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Twoy » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:46 pm

Did you see how much the diwigible costs?
You are welcome to the Mirror, Sword, and Shield, but that reduces Agrach's move to 1. He won't be able to keep up with his units.
Edit: If he rides on a Cownugon, he can keep up.
Last edited by Twoy on Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Battle for the Orgchart Wastelands

Postby Nihila » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:49 pm

zilfallon wrote:Also, Commander Agrach dibs on Mirror, Sword and Shield if no other warlord is interested. He's going to lead a full stack of big units. We won't be doing any mounting, so he can't use the others.
So, the first magic item is claimed. However, zilfallon, it might be best, to make full use of the Mirror, Sword, and Shield, if Commander Agrach had 3 Move rather than 2. The reason is that the -1 Move applies to the Scouting ability, so if he has 2 base Move, he cannot Scout during the scout phase, but if he has 3 base Move, he can scout 1 hex. Even if he has 0 Move, he can still ride a Cownugon. LTDave, Twoy, Siralus, better quickly decide which one you want!
zilfallon wrote:Twoy, that diwigible cannot exist. Read rules, a unit can't have more than 30 hits.
Whoops, I'll delete that shortly.

Twoy, I'll post my Mathamancy for your costs in a few hours. They look alright.
Twoy wrote:Did you see how much the diwigible costs?
Yes, and I think that that is the triumph of your cost formula--big units are really, really expensive. I'm betting on never seeing a diwigible. :D

And, here are my costs for Twoy's units:
Mole: 40 each, Base Cost=14.625, Scout=17.5, Ranged=8.
Faun Archer: 23 each, Base Cost=14.625, Ranged=8.
Badger: 31 each, Base Cost=14.625, Ranged=8, Siege=8.
Minotaur=63, correct in original post.
Diwigible=2128, correct in original post, completely ridiculous.

Unfortunately, these costs put you at using 508 pop points. If you drop 1 Faun Archer, you'll have 15 pop points spare, so if you guys do an even distribution of the reinforcement pop points, you can pop a Minotaur at the first allocation.

Also, the Mole can scout up to 5 hexes on roads. Just so you remember.
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