Book 2 – Page 44

[zilfallon]

Tram will secure the king against all predictable risks. He can't plan for unexpected risks, and unforseeable attacks. And regardless the balcony surrounded by units is safer than anywhere else in the tower from Parson. It will be heavily watched during the coming battle, as will the walls below since archers could fire from them. If he was left in the stufy Parson would almost certainly just walk in the study and croak him. Or simply place a dirtamancy trap above or below.

The king is secured against what Tram can anticipate. Tram can do nothing against the completely unknown except for get lucky; and he did luck out it appears.

See, that's why Jetstone has been losing hard.

Ansom walks into GK with massive number advantage. What's the worst that can happen?
Volcano explodes under his feets, that's the worst that could happen.

Ossomer puts the brute of his army in a choke point to block the enemy land forces. What's the worst that could happen?
Enemy army actualy is flier-heavy and hidden by foolmancy, that's the worst that could happen.

Trams will take his father to parley with the enemy who regularly pulls out cheesy combos out of their asses, be it volcanos, dirtmancy/shockmancy traps, two arkentools and the supreme warlord. What's the worst that could happen?
He should've learned by now, since both his brothers died for playing "fair".

Hamster thinks outside the box, and that's why his side is still standing Hamster plans for the unforeseeable and unexepected. Even when Charlie pulled out turn-ending trick leaving their army locked in the air, Hamster had a contigency plan for that.

Pretty much exactly. The job of general, especially the job of chief strategist, requires a certain inborn paranoia. Every army in the world that's worth spit has contingency plans in place for "what happens if something we can't predict has X effect?" Some things there's literally nothing you can do about, but making plans in case the enemy pulls something out of their patoot that has a longer effective range than you think it does isn't one of those things. That's something every army that has ever fought a war, ever, has had to prepare for as the enemy equipment (and their own) gradually improves.

What I object to, what Tramennis is not asking, is basically "What if I miss something important? How do I best serve my side in a situation where the enemy has successfully pulled a trick on me?" Just assuming it won't happen is one of the downsides of faith. And considering the enemy has already pulled an "impossible" trick (the "dirtamancy trap") Tram should not be nearly as confident as he seems to be that "what I can anticipate" is the same set as "what's likely to happen." Not that he should predict what Parson is specifically about to do, but to predict that GK will try to do something is something a general should think of. This side is desperate after all, that brings out a lot of creativity.

agreed, imgran. A smart commander should NEVER believe they are the winning side until the ultimate end of the battle. Being sure about the outcome is ignorance, and ignorance results in failure.

[Wender]

I agree that Tramennis just about doomed himself by asking That Question, but it's important to realize that Tram still sees himself as a diplomat. Talking is his forte, and since he now has ample evidence of the kind of stunts Parson can pull in combat, he wants to fight this battle where he's strongest and most experienced. It's hard to blame him.

Consider two things: First, as long as Parson is talking he's not planning; he's not giving orders; he's not fighting. His negotiating skill is an unknown, but Jetstone has some valuable cards to play. Tramennis is a skilled enough negotiator to get lots of free information out of Charlie, and get a peek into his actual motives.

Second, he believes he has his own unorthodox tactic. Negotiations are as real-time as combat is. If Tramennis comes in with something completely unforeseen, like an offer of alliance, he's working from a prepared strategy while Parson has to scramble to improvise. Even if Parson is a great improviser, he's still at a tactical disadvantage and he may slip up in the process of putting together a counter-offer. (Tramennis is right, as well: Nowhere in the comic have we seen Parson even contemplate alliance with Jetstone. By his own admission he's a combat specialist, not a negotiator.)

This is not a for-sure strategy--nothing is--but it's not bad. And as far as protecting Slately is concerned, it seems as if Trammenis has inadvertently done exactly the right thing: Slately will be protected not only by the fact that it's Jetstone's turn, but by the bulk of Jetstone's offensive power, and also by the side's most powerful warrior as a personal guard. It's a big, open space, so if Parson does find his way there Slately can be moved behind Trammenis and whatever guards are there.

Also, they could hide Slately in a closet deep in the bowels of the keep, but if something goes wrong and Tramennis buys it the leader of the side is in a closet deep in the bowels of the keep, and the defense is rudderless until he waddles all the way up to the tower--assuming the tower doesn't fall down around him before he gets there.

[gameboy1234]

Hamster thinks outside the box, and that's why his side is still standing Hamster plans for the unforeseeable and unexepected. Even when Charlie pulled out turn-ending trick leaving their army locked in the air, Hamster had a contigency plan for that.

Not exactly. I don't think Hamster had a specifically planned contingency. "Plans do fail." Remember? "Perfect strategy does not one perfect, flawless, genius plan." But Parson did appear to have war-gamed something similar to this food-fight before, and he had it ready, even if not specifically planned.

I do think that there were elements of this plan that he had to make up specifically just for this battle, but I also think he had some prior experiences to draw on.

[Lamech]

Tram will secure the king against all predictable risks. He can't plan for unexpected risks, and unforseeable attacks. And regardless the balcony surrounded by units is safer than anywhere else in the tower from Parson. It will be heavily watched during the coming battle, as will the walls below since archers could fire from them. If he was left in the stufy Parson would almost certainly just walk in the study and croak him. Or simply place a dirtamancy trap above or below.

The king is secured against what Tram can anticipate. Tram can do nothing against the completely unknown except for get lucky; and he did luck out it appears.

See, that's why Jetstone has been losing hard.

Ansom walks into GK with massive number advantage. What's the worst that can happen?
Volcano explodes under his feets, that's the worst that could happen.

Ossomer puts the brute of his army in a choke point to block the enemy land forces. What's the worst that could happen?
Enemy army actualy is flier-heavy and hidden by foolmancy, that's the worst that could happen.

Trams will take his father to parley with the enemy who regularly pulls out cheesy combos out of their asses, be it volcanos, dirtmancy/shockmancy traps, two arkentools and the supreme warlord. What's the worst that could happen?
He should've learned by now, since both his brothers died for playing "fair".

Hamster thinks outside the box, and that's why his side is still standing Hamster plans for the unforeseeable and unexepected. Even when Charlie pulled out turn-ending trick leaving their army locked in the air, Hamster had a contigency plan for that.

Hamster didn't have a plan. He was able to come up with something. Knowing how to think quick works against the unpredictable. So does having a reserve. But Tram can't really get a reserve king right now. Sure Tram should realize that maybe something bad could happen. But it could be anything, as far as he knows. Maybe Wanda is linked up with Charlie and another omnicaster (like wanda) right now for a devestating omnicaster/omnicaster/uberthinkamancer link. Maybe Sizemore moved underneath the city and will shortly level the city. Maybe Wanda can heal her mount indefinitly with the pliers if its decrypted and all their attacks are a waste of needed arrows to stop the archon swarm GK just hired. Maybe Haggar is readying its backstab as we speak and Jetstone doesn't have the forces to waste shooting down those dwagons.

What is Tram supposed to do about all those possiblities? Run away because everything might come crumbling down around them? No, you try to have a reserve. You learn as much as possible to reduce the chance of a surprise, and so you can figure out a counter when it happens. He's even picked the best option to protect the king thats remotly plausible to him. He is trying to learn, and he can't get a reserve king. The worst case for Jetstone is they lose and nothing they could have done. But you lose if you cower in fear of the worst case.

[oslecamo2]

Hamster didn't have a plan. He was able to come up with something. Knowing how to think quick works against the unpredictable.

He mentions he had already planned about a situation where one side's troops would get locked in the air. It's the whole "Food Fight Plan".

Hamster wasn't exactly idle while Ansom fought on the frontline. Jack mentions he's been planning for all kind of crazy situations, and preparing plans for each one of them.

In a world with magic like Erfworld, that's a necessity. You need to have multiple contigency plans for special situations. Heck, even Ansom had some of his own!

So does having a reserve. But Tram can't really get a reserve king right now. Sure Tram should realize that maybe something bad could happen. But it could be anything, as far as he knows. Maybe Wanda is linked up with Charlie and another omnicaster (like wanda) right now for a devestating omnicaster/omnicaster/uberthinkamancer link. Maybe Sizemore moved underneath the city and will shortly level the city. Maybe Wanda can heal her mount indefinitly with the pliers if its decrypted and all their attacks are a waste of needed arrows to stop the archon swarm GK just hired. Maybe Haggar is readying its backstab as we speak and Jetstone doesn't have the forces to waste shooting down those dwagons.

What is Tram supposed to do about all those possiblities? Run away because everything might come crumbling down around them?

Quite simply actualy. KILL THEM! No talks, no fancy stuff, just get the troops in position, start shooting, and don't stop untill you run out of arrows. Then set the bodies on fire just to be safe.

Instead, Trams wants to parley. Hamster himself mentions that if Trams had just went for the kill there was nothing he could do. Yet Trams pulls defeat from the jaws of victory.

No, you try to have a reserve. You learn as much as possible to reduce the chance of a surprise, and so you can figure out a counter when it happens. He's even picked the best option to protect the king thats remotly plausible to him. He is trying to learn, and he can't get a reserve king. The worst case for Jetstone is they lose and nothing they could have done. But you lose if you cower in fear of the worst case.

Making a speech instead of finishing off your oponent is ten times as worst. That's simply cliche. Your oponent is at your mercy, and instead of finishing him off you start boasting/talking, wasting precious time wich your oponent uses to come up with a way out.

[Clintodon]

Consider two things: First, as long as Parson is talking he's not planning; he's not giving orders; he's not fighting...

/tinfoil hat ON

I have a guess of what Parson needs Sizemore for now.

Parson can't parley during his assault. If Jetstone calls and can't get Parson, they may suspect something, so GK needs a "body double." They pulled it off with Bogroll during the parley-cwoaking of Ansom, but I'm guessing Parson is going to try a Dirtamancy golem this time.

My money is on Parson ordering Sizemore to make a golem that looks like him, and if possible sounds like him. Not sure how he'd arrange for what the golem should say, though . . . which could lead into more opportunities for dramatic events.

/tinfoil hat OFF

Of course, now that I said it it won't happen, right?

[Lamech]

Quite simply actualy. KILL THEM! No talks, no fancy stuff, just get the troops in position, start shooting, and don't stop untill you run out of arrows. Then set the bodies on fire just to be safe.

Instead, Trams wants to parley. Hamster himself mentions that if Trams had just went for the kill there was nothing he could do. Yet Trams pulls defeat from the jaws of victory.

But Tram doesn't know anything about that. Sure Parson might be able to pull something given time, but its also possible attacking right now is exactly what Parson needs to do to kill them all. Maybe Wanda has a turnamancy scroll that lets them move through a hex border to hit attacking archers, if he parley's he might see GK is eager for the attack. Maybe they never really entered the hex, and simply broke off and had Jack run a distraction; he might see that Ossemers mannerism are totally different if they parley. Maybe Sizemore is ready to strike and they want you to waste your juice on the fliers; Tram again might see GK is eager for the attack. And even if they did attack right now and just hit them hard like you suggest it would still be a long battle as Tram said. Parson could still attack them via the magic kingdom. Not only that the king would be sitting in his room alone. Parson would probably take him hostage and end the battle there.

And even if everything did go perfectly it doesn't matter. Haggar wants you dead, and there is no big threat to force them into line, Translovito needs help, and Jillian abandoned you. Jetstone is outmatched and allyless. GK will destroy them with ease; GK would defeat the entire coalition, using only what Tram knows about, and the coalition probably won't even exist.

Tram doesn't know if the best option to counter the unknown is to wait and gather info in case he sees through it or is to attack now in case the enemy is still getting ready. Thats 'cause its unknown. He can only try to have as many options as possible in-case another turnaround happens, and thats what he's doing.

Making a speech instead of finishing off your oponent is ten times as worst. That's simply cliche. Your oponent is at your mercy, and instead of finishing him off you start boasting/talking, wasting precious time wich your oponent uses to come up with a way out.

SoP in the real world after you capture someone is to interogate them for useful info. Holding a parley to offer to buy all the units for 10 shmuckers is stuipid. Trying to get more info is a good idea. Trying to come to a peace deal is a very good idea when the rest of their forces can kill you anyway.

[Kizmet]

Tram calls GK for parley... I know he wants to talk to Parson, but wouldn't it be more appropriate to talk to Stanley? Especially regarding an alliance? Does the CW even have the authority to enter into an alliance? Would be an interesting way for Stanley to find out what is really happening when he cannot reach Parson. Hilarity ensues as the assault is launched.

Oblig: Philosoraptor or Pedobear for FAQ Heir!

[DoctorJest]

Consider two things: First, as long as Parson is talking he's not planning; he's not giving orders; he's not fighting...

/tinfoil hat ON

I have a guess of what Parson needs Sizemore for now.

Parson can't parley during his assault. If Jetstone calls and can't get Parson, they may suspect something, so GK needs a "body double." They pulled it off with Bogroll during the parley-cwoaking of Ansom, but I'm guessing Parson is going to try a Dirtamancy golem this time.

My money is on Parson ordering Sizemore to make a golem that looks like him, and if possible sounds like him. Not sure how he'd arrange for what the golem should say, though . . . which could lead into more opportunities for dramatic events.

/tinfoil hat OFF

Of course, now that I said it it won't happen, right?

Yeah that's why it won't happen.

Really, why wouldn't they just use another twoll?

[Chit Rule Railroad]

Trying to come to a peace deal is a very good idea when the rest of their forces can kill you anyway.

This point is key. Wanda-less GK may still be able to defeat JS, especially when combined with the threat from Haggar and potentially Charlie (who, for example, might help Haggar sneak up on Spacerock while JS is engaged with GK, in return for the Arkenpliers).

Trammenis may just be suffering from unfortunate timing. If he had managed to contact Parson earlier, Parson might not have decided to bet everything on a "cheat that may not even work".

[Oberon]

Also note that Sammy accepted Charlie's "agreement" without consulting his Ruler.

So if it wasn't for the fact that Jetstone really want to talk to Parson in particular, they would probably just talk to Wanda.

Ansom entered into no fewer than two agreements with Charlie where we saw no consultation with Slately at all. One when he was being attacked by a hoard of uncroaked and there could not have been even the chance of an off-panel discussion. I think that it's pretty clear that being CWL comes with the ability to obligate your Side to honor agreements made.

Wanda, on the other hand, is not a CWL.

Poor Slately has to use a hook on a pole to retrieve his finery from the coat rack. I bet that isn't demeaning at all.

I guess that proves the coat rack is not a magic item

What do you mean? It comes with a magic hook of cloak retrieval!

Oh Shoot, a staff and the sword... But I don't want Parson to be Gandalf!! Gandalf died!!

He got better, took his enemy's color, and broke his staff with a word. If Parson is Gandalf, then all is well.

To explain further, rain on your wedding day is not situationally ironic. A free ride for which you've already paid is arguably not such a thing either, but is most definitely a scam.

Perhaps the irony is that these events were being passed off in song as being prime examples of irony? I mean, 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife surely isn't irony, either. But passing off (false) example after (false) example of irony to the American public? And making money from so doing? Isn't it ironic?

I want to know what Parson is holding up in the fourth panel... instructions for using the staff, or what? o.o;

I don't think he is holding anything. He's holding his arm up so the sword belt can be fastened and it just looks like he is holding onto some of the scenery in the background.

Now that you mention it, it looks that way to me also. Previously, I was with MW and thought Parson was holding up some kind of yaller cube-thing that no one had even tried to identify...

Your avatar. Touché, sir.

I'd say he'll use the dwagon relay, but he counts as a heavy unit...

It is not their turn. Relay or no, they can't use it to go anywhere off-turn. Portal or nothing.

See the thing is, factors well within Tram's sphere of understanding should have cautioned him not to risk putting King Slately anywhere but in the safest, most secure hidden secret compartment in all of Spacerock. Until there's an heir the single most inexpendable thing on the entire Jetstone side is the life of King Slately. If he goes in some kind of unanticipated suicide strike the side ends. And Trem knows, he KNOWS, he's been TOLD and he's SEEN it with his own eyes, that Gobwin Knob plays tricks with parley on a very regular basis.

True. But balance "Killed Ansom during a parley" against "Can defeat Jetstone during a parley", and here we have summed up the reasons for Tram's seeming (to some) naïveté. Tram, Slately, Don, Duncan, and probably many others, they all think, nay, know, that the GK expeditionary forces led by Wanda are screwed by the numbers. Wanda and her stack cannot win, by any sane person's assessment of the coming battle. And so all that remains is the "we're Royals, and so we'll honorably offer you the option to refuse to kow-tow to us before we wipe you out" posturing which Jack has described and which Slately and Tram appear to be happy to represent in practice. And if that parley also offers the opportunity to size up the CWL who strikes fear into the heart of the enigmatic and powerful Charlie? Well, bonus round!

Do not blame Tram for refusing to believe that some freak turn of fortune can still occur, when the outcome of the coming battle is so apparent to so many people. It is their turn, and they have the luxury of sizing up the opponents and selecting the time and method of the opening engagement.

[Hoax]

tl;dr

I hope ya'll realize that in order for this comic to go anywhere, Gobwin Knob (or Parson) has to lose this battle. They said it a couple panels back that even without the Arkenpliers GK would still be able to overrun the known world. And here comes Parson walking straight into fate's hands by leaving his ever-so-comfy couch over at GK.

So here's how its gonna be: Rob's gonna jerk us around over the next few months either getting to the negotiation or pussy-footing around with the opening stages of it (we may even see a panel of fighting or two - don't hold your breath) when Charlie finds out that Parson is at Jetstone. He's gonna come swooping in when everything looks hunkydory (Jetstone and GK may actually be just about to ally with each other) and Jetstone's gonna doublecross GK, or somebody, somewhere is gonna double cross somebody and then some guys are gonna hit the Big Potato Man on the head and toss him in a big potato sack. Wanda will prolly be killed/disposed of (she hasn't had alotta face time this book, and the pliers are way too powerful to remain in operation).

And then Book 3 will be coming courtesy of Charlie's prison cam.

I realize this leaves alot of threads totally untouched, but there's always book 3, or 4, 5... however long they milk this thing. Besides, the alternative is that Parson wins... and that'd truly be the end.

[Sieggy]

Nah, it's already been foreshadowed - he will win, but at a terrible price. There's always the Pyrrhic victory option to keep the Plotamancy alive . . .

[fjolnir]

Here's the thing, we already know that the realworld gaming group are going to be involved in this story somehow, so one or more of the sides surviving this fight are going to be attempting to request a commander who has beaten this "Hamster" in battle. This doesn't need to be Pyrric at all, though we're most likely going to see the deaths of some of gk's decrypted warlords, possibly Jack. Wanda may split off but I doubt she dies since she has a metric ton of baggage with several characters...

[oslecamo2]

I hope ya'll realize that in order for this comic to go anywhere, Gobwin Knob (or Parson) has to lose this battle. They said it a couple panels back that even without the Arkenpliers GK would still be able to overrun the known world.

Big mistake there. They would be able to overrun the royal coalition. Not the known world. Wich the Archons mentioned it's much bigger than any of the sides know.

Erfworld isn't just "Royals vs GK". There's a lot more factions out there.

Right now, the Royals just happen to be royally screwed (pun intended) after the volcano blowing up their elite forces in one blow, and then a decrypted army apearing out of nowhere and trample their divided remaining forces by suprise.

So if the royals get wiped out, excellent! We can move on to the other Erfworld factions!

(she hasn't had alotta face time this book, and the pliers are way too powerful to remain in operation).

Charlie's artifact is also pretty hax. Listening to other people's communication, Archon controling, long distance unlimited thinkmancy for all kind of super combos. And Charlie's dish has been around longer than the arkenpliers.

Plus like already mentioned on other threads, the pliers just look hax because Wanda had the perfect situation of thousands of elite troops in a single hex ready to decrypt. The pliers are kinda useless if you don't have a way to get dead bodies.

I realize this leaves alot of threads totally untouched, but there's always book 3, or 4, 5... however long they milk this thing. Besides, the alternative is that Parson wins... and that'd truly be the end.

Again, you seem to think Erfworld it's much smaller than it actualy is. This isn't your average turn based game with half a dozen players.

This is the ultimate turn based game with dozens if not hundred of factions. If the royals bite it, then Hamster will stumble into even bigger fishes. Like Charlie and his fleet of archons.

[technojunkie]

This is the ultimate turn based game with dozens if not hundred of factions. If the royals bite it, then Hamster will stumble into even bigger fishes. Like Charlie and his fleet of archons.

This. ^

A constant tug o' war between GK and RCCII wil only stagnate the story. Something has to change to upset the rythm we've seen so far. Be it Parson getting captured, or a new front opening after collapse of RCCII, or something...

[danhaas]

Wanda will not die. If she does, she will come back as a lich or something, because she has plot armor. Remember the Jillian/Wanda/Ansom story? Parson though has a high chance of getting injured, and the plot armor of Jack, Sizemore and Maggie is particularly thin now.

The pliers, as far as we know, aren't that overpowered. At least in comparison to the other tools, as oslecamo2 pointed. The plot can go on with or without them.

And what if another uber croakmancer comes with a counter to the decrypted? Like instant destruction of decrypted in a hex, or loyalty conversion? If that croakmancer could have the aid of Charlie or of the mysterious 4th tool, that sure is possible. The MK, if united, could develop such a counter too.

edit1: And Jillian would be willing to pay for it.

[splintermute]

It's clearly a Wienerrammer-skin cloak. Since they're heavies that are used as battering rams, they clearly have tough skin - maybe it's bullet/arrowproof?

In the Nibelungenlied, Mime forged (and Alberich, and then Fafner and then Siegfried stole) the Tarnhelm, which is a hat, and allows you to change forms.

Since most of this kit is loaded with media references how about this-
Tattered cloak = tarnkappe or cloak of invisibility, most recently seen in the Harry Potter books and movies. Parson hits the power button and bingo! The easy way to go through the MK without trouble.
And maybe job Slately and Trem.

What is that cloak?!?

Is it a doombat? Will it allow Parson to fly?

Ah, like Siegried in Wagner's Nibelungenleid? That was a cape or cloak wasn't it? That makes perfect sense!

[joosy]

Although it may seem that fate will prevent Wanda's loss I fear that losing Sizemore, Maggie and/or Jack would be enough of a Pyrrhic victory to either break Parson emotionally or harden him to become the ruthless warlord Janis appears to want him to be. Let's hope I am wrong.

Edit: Or Wanda croaks and somehow decrypts herself. That would be an interesting twist and another nail in the coffin of Royalty vs Toolism.

[imgran]

Here's the thing, we already know that the realworld gaming group are going to be involved in this story somehow, so one or more of the sides surviving this fight are going to be attempting to request a commander who has beaten this "Hamster" in battle. This doesn't need to be Pyrric at all, though we're most likely going to see the deaths of some of gk's decrypted warlords, possibly Jack. Wanda may split off but I doubt she dies since she has a metric ton of baggage with several characters...

That's one theory. Frankly, another theory holds that we're already seen them.