Book 2 – Text Updates 034

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Maeltne » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:13 pm

This seems to indicate a coup.

But for a side without an Heir, or with an Heir in close proximity, I fail to see how that could happen... Wait is Caesar still heir (was he ever)? If so then I could see it being possible. When faced with death would you choose to destroy your killer and your people or to spare your killer and your people?

Slately cleverly arranged to be outside and far away from the city when his coup sprung. If King Saline IV had suspected I'm certain he could have instantly disbanded him.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Raza » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:38 pm

Althernai wrote:But he's still betting on her as far as this battle is concerned. I'm kind of curious what will happen if Jetstone loses -- can Caesar actually do anything against Don King? It looks like Don has angered a substantial fraction of his court, but what do you do against somebody who can erase you from existence with a thought? Does a rebellious unit become immune to disbandment?

Ceasar's a high level warlord, Don King probably a first level one. They're in the same room, and Ceasar's the heir. All he has to do is take a shot, and make it count.

I can't imagine anybody becoming immune to disbanding/orders. You'd have to work around it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Zak3056 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:16 pm

Godsire wrote:We waited so long for this ?

Wow this comic is getting so tiresome.... No words for this...

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby ftl » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:23 pm

Maeltne wrote:This seems to indicate a coup.

But for a side without an Heir, or with an Heir in close proximity, I fail to see how that could happen... Wait is Caesar still heir (was he ever)?


Caesar is still heir. He has been the Heir Designate of Transylvito for some time now, but is supposed to be replaced once the Royal Heir pops.

When faced with death would you choose to destroy your killer and your people or to spare your killer and your people?


I find it hard to believe that, within the rules, that situation would come up.

If you're still alive when you have the chance to destroy your killer(s), then you destroy them and heal fully at the start of next turn, business as usual goes on (minus whoever was croaked in the insurrection). If you're croaked or incapacitated, then you don't have the chance to destroy them in the first place. When do you envision a ruler having that choice?


Of course, it's true that we don't yet understand how insurrections are even possible when rulers can disband underlings. My pet theory is that there's something in the rule mechanics about WHEN you can disband someone - for example, that disbanding only happens at the moment when you have to pay upkeep for the unit and choose not to. Or maybe the disbanding takes effect at the end of the turn, or the end of the day, or something. But I quite realize that's not supported by canon, as far as I know the only canon we've seen is that "I could disband you with a thought!" line from Stanley. But that's the scenario I have in mind when I'm thinking that there's no way for someone to be alive and having to make that choice, maybe you have something different in mind.

Slately cleverly arranged to be outside and far away from the city when his coup sprung. If King Saline IV had suspected I'm certain he could have instantly disbanded him.


First, you're talking about Stanley, not Slately. Slately is the current Jetstone King, and we've got no indication that he got his throne through a coup. Stanley is current overlord of GK.

Second, from what we we've been told, Stanley didn't arrange the coup. He happened to be outside the city with the casters when there was a gobwin insurrection that killed Saline. While I'm sure many of us around here suspect foul play of some sort (and I'm not arguing against that), it's not at all clear or even hinted at that Stanley was the one responsible.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:34 pm

We have canon on disbanding, it's in the wiki:

A unit may be disbanded when:

1. the Ruler chooses to disband the unit.Erf-b1-p072 This is instantaneous and permanent. It may be applied to any unit controlled by the ruler, wherever that unit is located.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby effataigus » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:48 pm

Off-topic thought:

It seems like Faq and Transylvito have the perfect unit types to take on someone with the Arkenpliers (not that I'd put any money on them). When going against something that can turn your fallen against you it seems like you've got two options.

1. Don't lose any units: the mobility and indestructability of the Megalogwiffs seem perfect for this. Hit em hard and then get out of Dodge to hide and heal. Dwagons would work well too of course... if Wanda ever runs afoul of Stanley. Archons wouldn't be bad either.

2. If you have to stand and fight to the death, use units that are incredibly numerous but essentially useless. I'm betting Wanda's doombat decryption rate would be a tiny fraction of the rate that those things would go down in an all-out slugfest. This would mean she wouldn't get as much from the pliers as she would if you had meatier units for her to decrypt. Of course, you still have to bet big on a single battle... retreat for a second and Erfworld time will let her fill the skies with your dooders.

I suppose we have yet to see the pliers work on a golem... and it would definitely make sense if they were un-decryptable.
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:We have canon on disbanding, it's in the wiki:

A unit may be disbanded when:

1. the Ruler chooses to disband the unit.Erf-b1-p072 This is instantaneous and permanent. It may be applied to any unit controlled by the ruler, wherever that unit is located.


Indeed, but there's been some talk of units turning in the past as well. My guess would be that once a unit "turns" they're no longer considered to be controlled by the ruler. I seem to recall something about them having to "break stack" first. *Tinfoil hat* WHY ISN'T BENJAMIN HANGING WITH THE OTHER PARTY PEOPLE!!??
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby ftl » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:52 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:We have canon on disbanding, it's in the wiki:

A unit may be disbanded when:

1. the Ruler chooses to disband the unit.Erf-b1-p072 This is instantaneous and permanent. It may be applied to any unit controlled by the ruler, wherever that unit is located.


Ooh. Damn, you're right, I didn't realize that that's one bit that got promoted to Canon. I was just looking at the strips, which aren't as clear about that as the wiki. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Hiai » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:42 pm

This update was a good way to re-focus us on the fact that there's a whole lot more brewing than just Parson going to Jetstone.

It's interesting that Benjamin would take the view that the Don is somehow seduced by Jillian, as that is the sneeringly implied scenario that Caesar put forth when he was the most openly questioning of Don's judgment. Does this mean that as loyalties in Transylvito are falling, it is mostly from the perception that Don King is smitten with Queen Jillian?

There would be many parallels to Earth history in this regard, of course. Most of them ended in one of two ways: 1. the ruler was overthrown in some way, usually ending up dead. 2. the perceived "mistress" or other outside influence was put to death BY THE RULER. There is no way to win back the trust of the people if it was some other person doing the offing.

Often, the offending mistress/religious counsel/bad advisor/unsavory influence was accused of some sort of witchcraft or other highly suspect practice, then quickly executed, and the ruler went through some sort of ritualistic purification that supposedly made sure they couldn't be influenced by the "magic powers" again, thus winning back the hearts of the people. Any ruler thought to be weak enough to fall for it again was still ripe for rebellion.

Something tells me that despite whatever rebellion is brewing here, Caesar is not going to end up ruling Transylvito. The idea that Don might send Caesar to snuff Jillian, though, seems to suddenly become a possibility. Surely, Don has gone "all in" on this Jillian gamble. If it doesn't pay off, he's going to have to come up with some really quick tricks. Those that don't pay their debts to dons usually come to a very swift, very bad ending. I await the "someday, I will ask you for a favor" speech. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Alexei P » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:10 pm

Pulling a coup d'état in Erfworld is perilous to be sure. But Caesar has a secret weapon of sorts: his influence over Don King's trusty thinkamancer. Having an ally who can read and control minds must be an awesome advantage. Will the little Cesare Borgia-wannabe prove shrewd enough to exploit it, I wonder.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:25 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:We have canon on disbanding, it's in the wiki:

A unit may be disbanded when:

1. the Ruler chooses to disband the unit.Erf-b1-p072 This is instantaneous and permanent. It may be applied to any unit controlled by the ruler, wherever that unit is located.


That may have to be retconjured.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby the_tick_rules » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 am

Why?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:34 am

DevilDan wrote:Why wouldn't Caesar be amenable to at least listening? Caesar already suspects he was sent on a suicide mission, he has had to hide his relationship with Bunny, he got kicked as heir, he disagrees with Don King's changes in philosophy and with his strategic decisions.


I'm saying that Bennie's ability to influence Caesar on an ongoing basis may be greater than his ability to influence Don King, just as many forumites believe Wanda's influence increased when rulership of GK passed from Saline IV - who may or may not have been intelligent, but did impress Sizemore - to the Stanley we love to hate. This assumes that Bunny and Bennie are on good terms, because she's obviously got more influence on Caesar than he does.


Welf von Ehrwald wrote:We have canon on disbanding, it's in the wiki:

A unit may be disbanded when:

1. the Ruler chooses to disband the unit.Erf-b1-p072 This is instantaneous and permanent. It may be applied to any unit controlled by the ruler, wherever that unit is located.


The referenced comic page corroborates neither "instantaneous" nor "may be applied to any unit...wherever that unit is located", and I. Heartly Noah is not Rob Balder, so I don't see why we should defer to that wiki page.

I speculate that when a ruler "disbands" a unit, what he is precisely doing is ordering the unit to disband itself. If that's the case, then arranging to be unable to receive orders would provide temporary protection. Having the thinkamancer on your side could be helpful to that end, and having someone use a foolamancy scroll on you would help you sneak up on the Ruler without provoking the order.

ftl wrote:If you're still alive when you have the chance to destroy your killer(s), then you destroy them and heal fully at the start of next turn, business as usual goes on (minus whoever was croaked in the insurrection). If you're croaked or incapacitated, then you don't have the chance to destroy them in the first place. When do you envision a ruler having that choice?


Wanda could still speak when she was incapacitated, so an incapacitated Ruler who doesn't expect to receive healing magic might have to make that choice. Of course, if Don King were incapacitated, he might expect that Bennie would be willing to go buy a healing scroll if the alternative were the end of the Side. ...Unless Bennie only cares about his fellow casters, who could join him as barbarians in the MK.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Sonic Screwdriver » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:19 am

Another idea is that if a unit chooses to be disloyal enough to rebel, they become a barbarian and thus no longer subject to the Overlord's disbanding ability, and only be concerned about their upkeep disbanding them on the next turn if it's not met.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby dmorenus » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:03 am

kagato23 wrote:
quindraco wrote:
joosy wrote:Probably the best text update so far. God that was awesome!
Fnsteve wrote:Probably the worst text update so far. God that sucked.

effataigus wrote:Probably the most polarizing text update so far. God, that was... Wait, no, not even close to the most polarizing...


This thread needs more disagreement.


No it doesn't! This thread needs more harmony!


No, it needs more cowbell!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby ftl » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:20 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:The referenced comic page corroborates neither "instantaneous" nor "may be applied to any unit...wherever that unit is located", and I. Heartly Noah is not Rob Balder, so I don't see why we should defer to that wiki page.


I thought that the way the wiki worked was that Rob (or Jamie or Xin) was the only person with the authority to promote something from "Proposed Canon" (no matter how well-sourced) . Did I misunderstand that, too? Might be a bad day for me, then.

ftl wrote:Wanda could still speak when she was incapacitated,


Really? Damn, I could've sworn she didn't. ...yeah, looked it up, you're right, she has that spat with Ansom. 0 for Lots for me today :(
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby ftl » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:26 am

Alexei P wrote:Pulling a coup d'état in Erfworld is perilous to be sure. But Caesar has a secret weapon of sorts: his influence over Don King's trusty thinkamancer. Having an ally who can read and control minds must be an awesome advantage. Will the little Cesare Borgia-wannabe prove shrewd enough to exploit it, I wonder.


Well, that's the thing. From Don's point of view, we've seen text updates saying that Don considers Caesar fairly transparent - that's what he considers his main weakness, a lack of subtlety. So if, at the time, Don really did have a good handle on Caesar like he thought, then he probably knew about (if not manipulated) his trysts with Bunny. The alternative is that he was so hopelessly wrong about Caesar.

Now, right now I wouldn't believe too much Don says, he's not doing so well at the moment, but that was a ways back, when he seemed more trustworthy, and it would have been a stretch for him to misjudge Caesar THAT badly.

So really, I could see this coup going either way, plausibly. It could be that Caesar tries the coup and it turns out that Benjamin agrees that Don isn't best for the side anymore, and that Bunny is with Caesar... and the Warlords already respect Caesar... leaving Don in a pretty bad bind, with both his casters AND warlords against him. But it could be that Caesar tries the coup, but gets headed off by Bunny who's been loyal to Don all along. And, again, with a thinkamancer on his side, Don could do the loyalty manipulation he needs to do to get through the short term until the heir pops.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby Althernai » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:42 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:We have canon on disbanding, it's in the wiki:
A unit may be disbanded when:

1. the Ruler chooses to disband the unit.Erf-b1-p072 This is instantaneous and permanent. It may be applied to any unit controlled by the ruler, wherever that unit is located.

But this does not clarify matters: once a unit is making a play for the throne, it is certainly no longer controlled by the ruler.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby kagato23 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:25 am

We know that heirs can make their own sides on conquerd cities(I wonder if a king can actually fund the construction of a new castle site for such purposes? One assumes cites could be created on certain landspots, though I'm sure that's more expensive then taking anothers). I'm guessing its somthing similar. We know a Heir can be come a barbarian, we know people can break aliances, it's probably a combo of those two things. Considering that Maggie and Sizemore found the concept of even a hypothetical attack on Stanley unfathomable, I don't think you could make the bid when your still on the same side.

now obviously, this would keep one safe from disbanding. But if this is correct, it also does a few other things:
a. Immediatly puts your upkeep on yourself. From Jillian, we know a barbarian's purse size has a limit, so how many coconspiraturs you can bring with you is pratically limited, if there's any initial fee's for this.

b. With more certainty, natural thinkamancy lets people know when certain changes happen on a side. So losing a heir is a pretty immediate notification for a King, I'd imagine. And more importantly, if said heir is in your capital hex and there's not a fight going on, it's a pretty obvious declaration of what's about to go down.

With those things involved, it's easy to see why most attempts almost certainly fail. But Caesar's got some high level popularity, enough perhaps that he gets at least a loyalty check in those around him when they realize what's about to happen. I imagine that he still only has one shot though, as most of the castle would still become his immediate enemy if an actual order against him is given.

What I'd wonder (and I'm hoping the way this is building will go down) is what happens when a coup is sucessfull? It is considered a natural progression? "He's the ruler now, our loyalty to him?" Or is it like capturing a side, and everybody is immediatly in chains that wasn't directly with him? I'd imagine if this is the case, his loytaly, duty and obediance from the troops might be low. Might have to do a godfather-esque purging and mostly pop new units who wouldnt' know enough to have grudges.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby The Black Hand » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:34 am

dmorenus wrote:
kagato23 wrote:
quindraco wrote:This thread needs more disagreement.


No it doesn't! This thread needs more harmony!


No, it needs more cowbell!


No, it requires additional pylons!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 034

Postby name lips » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:12 am

The Black Hand wrote:
dmorenus wrote:
kagato23 wrote:
No it doesn't! This thread needs more harmony!


No, it needs more cowbell!


No, it requires additional pylons!

No, it requires additional cylons.
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