Book 2 – Text Updates 035

[joosy]

Is there any reason why the Gobwin Knob side can't build a city, wherever the like? Sure, it would be foolish to build it in someone else's territory - it would become their city.

But what if, oh say, you build a city on, I dunno, the site of Spacerock.

Or more precisely, what if you built a city about 100 ft above the site of Spacerock ?

I believe you can only build cities on hexes that are designated as city sites. Capital cities can only be build on hexes designated as such as well, I believe. I am not sure if the level of the city is limited by city site designation or by other restrictions.

If you conquer a city without destroying the garrison (razing it) you can then produce whatever the city was previously set to produce. If you raze it and rebuild it then it will only produce units that your side can for the appropriate city level. (e.g. For GK it would be infantry, twolls, spidews, dwagons, etc. depending on the level of the city, for JetStone that would include Gumps, and I am guessing unipegataurs. Not sure what JetStone's upper level units are other than Gumps..)

[joosy]

Not quite. I don't think Jack wants to see the world burn, exactly...

That would be Sylvia aka Red.

[build6]

Not quite. I don't think Jack wants to see the world burn, exactly... I just think that he wouldn't especially care if it did. He might feel a twinge of regret, but no more than, say, if he watched someone break a pretty vase by shattering it against the wall. And immediately after he felt that twinge of regret at its destruction, he'd be fascinated by the patterns made by the broken pieces.

He's not out to see everything destroyed. I think, given the choice, he'd be against it. But, if it happened, he'd be more interested in watching the fallout then he would be horrified by the carnage.

hrm, right right, he's not the Joker, he's not ... malicious about it. but yeah he's definitely "broken" inside. A result of his unrequited love for Jillian? (seriously, what is it about her? I think she's pretty cool, but for three main characters to live their lives the way they do because of her? WTF, she's not THAT hot

(Do we know what went wrong with him the first time round such that he was talking all funny and Stanley needed to know his full name in order to "wake him up"? Was he in the tri-mancer linkup that was broken? who was it - Maggie, Misty and him? But then this kind of ... nihilism? surely isn't a side-effect of a bad link-break)

[Althernai]

It's one thing to be neutral and quite apart from that to be completely shut off from the world. An Earth-based example is Switzerland, which is in fact militarily neutral even though it also serves as a safe haven for deposits from who knows whom.

Back in Erfworld, the Magic Kingdom fashioned itself into a land where casters could mingle freely, and yes occasionally sell scrolls or get hired out to other kingdoms as mercenaries (just like the Swiss, mind you, apart from the magic scrolls thing ... right, Switzerland?).

I currently work in Switzerland. Swiss banks will indeed do business with some groups that most of the world finds distasteful (or worse), but unlike the Magic Kingdom, Switzerland does not sell weapons or hire out mercenaries powerful enough to turn the tide of a massive, 5+ side conflict.

As I've kept saying, for one this will put more tension on Sizemore. Whatever he does, we gain. Either Sizemore abandons Parson (and why not, I'd love to see more competent foils arrayed against Lord Hamster) or tries to drive Parson more towards that plan Janis had.

Yes, it's definitely true that this is not making Sizemore happy. But on the other hand, I don't think Sizemore will leave him over this. For one thing, Janis would never forgive him and for another, Parson is pretty good at inspiring loyalty. In this very update we have:

"Yes, all right. We do share the same old affliction," he said, looking down and smiling. "But mine was never quite so crippling. No, if you want to know the true reason I declined her offer, then riddle me this: How is Queen Jillian like Lord Hamster?"

[atalex]

As I've kept saying, for one this will put more tension on Sizemore. Whatever he does, we gain. Either Sizemore abandons Parson (and why not, I'd love to see more competent foils arrayed against Lord Hamster) or tries to drive Parson more towards that plan Janis had.

Why do you believe that ruining the neutrality of the Magic Kingdom isn't part of Janis' plan?

This. See also Book 1, page 141, in which Janis, the only person depicted so far who seems to have any position of authority over the MK directs Sizemore to do whatever Parson wants, because "[i]f he breaks things enough, there may be peace in Erfworld after all." If Janis truly didn't anticipate that the safety and peace of the Magic Kingdom might be one of the things to get broken, she's a lot more naive than I thought. If she has the nerve to complain about it, she's a hypocrite to boot.

[build6]

Why do you believe that ruining the neutrality of the Magic Kingdom isn't part of Janis' plan?

heh, I was one post up saying something similar... in terms of "neverending war in Erf", MK as it exists certainly is not working to stop it.

Anyways, while researching the trimancer hookup, I ran into this:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F090.jpg

How is it that Charlie was so certain Parson would survive the "sure-to-lose" invasion of GK?? (was this discussed before?)

[M.A.D]

Okay, I'm now coherant enough to post properly.

So, my main thought after reading this update (besides 'omg Jack so awesome') is that Jack's reason for not turning to Jillian when she asked recently has been explained (or as explained as you can get with mister talks-in-riddles), but what still has me wondering is why he didn't turn back in the pass fight, with Stanley vs Transylvito and Jillian. Neither of his reasons for turning now seem to exactly fit... the main missing bit of info here for making serious conjectures is whether linked units remember events around them when they were linked. We know they remember SOMETHING, but has this been determined fully one way or another? It'd be important to know whether Jack remembered all of the commands and events that transpired around him in the command room, or if he only recalls the bits associated with his function; ie, the display.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F108.jpg <-- here

He spoke with Parson once before the fight. I think that was when Parson told him how to run away. If that was something not even Jack could think of, he'd be curious as of what kind of thing that could be in this new Warlord's mind.

(Do we know what went wrong with him the first time round such that he was talking all funny and Stanley needed to know his full name in order to "wake him up"? Was he in the tri-mancer linkup that was broken? who was it - Maggie, Misty and him? But then this kind of ... nihilism? surely isn't a side-effect of a bad link-break)

He was part of the trimancer. During which time they lose their individuality, and with a complex mind like Jack's I can imagine he was so fascinated with the state of sharing minds that he end up losing himself in it. Even though his mental capability was on a level high enough to save his life from the breaking of the link, he's sure to suffer in an undefended state.

However, I think that Jack was already somewhat wacko even without the influence of the broken link.

Speaking of Jack, I'm fearing for his life at the moment. With Tramennis around, chances are Jack is gonna get cloaked and Tram replacing him as Hamster's riddle buddy. Tram's dollamancer could probably make something to replace Jack's stimulation table

Anyways, while researching the trimancer hookup, I ran into this:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F090.jpg

How is it that Charlie was so certain Parson would survive the "sure-to-lose" invasion of GK?? (was this discussed before?)

He wasn't certain. He was being lightheartedly polite and positive.

[pegleg pete]

I wonder if the "food fight" is really more of a "food supply fight". If Wanda's troops crush (or destructively poop on) all the city buildings associated with food production (e.g. the slaughterhouse and smokehouse), Jetstone's side won't have the ability to feed the troops they have and may have to disband them.

[Ytaker]

It's one thing to be neutral and quite apart from that to be completely shut off from the world. An Earth-based example is Switzerland, which is in fact militarily neutral even though it also serves as a safe haven for deposits from who knows whom.

Back in Erfworld, the Magic Kingdom fashioned itself into a land where casters could mingle freely, and yes occasionally sell scrolls or get hired out to other kingdoms as mercenaries (just like the Swiss, mind you, apart from the magic scrolls thing ... right, Switzerland?).

I currently work in Switzerland. Swiss banks will indeed do business with some groups that most of the world finds distasteful (or worse), but unlike the Magic Kingdom, Switzerland does not sell weapons or hire out mercenaries powerful enough to turn the tide of a massive, 5+ side conflict.

They did launder stolen Nazi gold in ww2, which probably had a pretty large effect on the war. For huge profit. The Switzerland government did a report, the Bergier Commission, which proved 80% of Nazi gold shipments were arranged through Switzerland, and that Swiss banks gained a huge profit from murdered Nazi victims, making no effort to return the money. They disobeyed the conventions of morality in a 5+ conflict, and got a lot of gold out of it.

Neutrality has a poor reputation. The magic kingdom is likely similar.

Edit. Only example of neutrality we have so far, Charlie. Sells to both sides, makes problems for people he serves so that he always has business. It's unlikely, based on this corrupt and biased example, that the author has a high view of neutrality. Thus, Parson violating that neutrality wouldn't seem like an especially immoral act.

[WarGiver]

If resupply occurs off turn maybe it can only occur off turn, if so then the trick might be to first taunt the king into a "proper negotiation" which includes a formal event, as such food (resupply) being involved. this might make them trigger an end turn so they do it in the evening/night during off turn. This also leaves a reason that Parson might need to attend. The Dollamancer may be the key to this or else why would so much focus be on him? He will likely turn, but how he will be used is the question.


At least all that is in my opinion.

[Krennson]

It's one thing to be neutral and quite apart from that to be completely shut off from the world. An Earth-based example is Switzerland, which is in fact militarily neutral even though it also serves as a safe haven for deposits from who knows whom.

Back in Erfworld, the Magic Kingdom fashioned itself into a land where casters could mingle freely, and yes occasionally sell scrolls or get hired out to other kingdoms as mercenaries (just like the Swiss, mind you, apart from the magic scrolls thing ... right, Switzerland?).

I currently work in Switzerland. Swiss banks will indeed do business with some groups that most of the world finds distasteful (or worse), but unlike the Magic Kingdom, Switzerland does not sell weapons or hire out mercenaries powerful enough to turn the tide of a massive, 5+ side conflict.

Well, they NO LONGER hire out war-changing mercenaries while claiming neutrality. they used to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries

[Oberon]

Merely convenience? You're comparing the contrast of losing Wanda's entire expeditionary force against destroying the Jetstone capitol city and presumably the Jetstone Side as well, and labeling this a mere convenience? Really?

False dychotomy. Apparently Jack could come up with a defensive plan that did not involve abusing the portal convention. So it's at least a three way choice between death, survival (and fight another day), and victory. To say nothing of any other possible plans.

What is a false dichotomy is your pair of options: Use the portal and be a bad man, or not use the portal and be a good man. How about a third option, use the portal and be a good man? Remember, convention? Following or not following a convention does not make a person evil, unless you're playing bridge.

That is Janice's plan. And Sizemore has heard at least a little bit about it. But we've no indication that Parson has been consulted on the matter, at all. Parson is looking for his greatest advantage, not for an end of war on Erf.

Dare I say, convenience?

Are you really calling the survival of the GK expeditionary force a convenience?

First, Parson did not hear about this just now. He was in the MK before, and even if nobody explicitly stated any MK conventions to him, he can put 2 and 2 together. The MK must be neutral for its portals to be trusted.

Nonsense. There are plenty of other ways for the portals to be "trusted", including automagically annihilating non-caters who use them. Which Parson is well aware of, except for that defense apparently not working on him.

Second, law is convention, and vice-versa in many cases. Conventions are also not entirely arbitrary, they serve some purpose. In this case, that convention gives the MK its neutrality. By choosing to flaunt a convention of neutrality, Parson is doing a morally dubious act. What he is doing now is tantamount to breeching a treaty and more significantly, jeopardizing the neutrality (even existence?) of the Magic Kingdom.

Thirdly, ignorance of the law is never an excuse anyway. At most, a mitigation, if the law is obscure and the details are not necessarily obvious to common sense. This is not the case now. It's pretty clear what the convention is, and it's pretty clear that Parson knowingly decided to thumb his nose at it.

Nicely circular. "The convention is a law, and therefore ignorance of this law is no excuse, and therefore Parson will be thumbing his nose at the law." A nice stack of cards. But when the convention isn't a law, your entire argument suddenly has no basis.

[Thomas60]

Law has been interpretted two ways ITT.
Often, convention is law, since courts have the right to imply it into contracts under dispute.
Breaking the law is possible, it just has consequence. When we are breaking the law, we are breaking the standards designed by the ruling government. Convention is the standards designed by the community (with or without realisation).

In erfworld, when you talk about law, you are really talking about physical laws in the game-mechanics.

[Avens]

Anyways, while researching the trimancer hookup, I ran into this:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F090.jpg

How is it that Charlie was so certain Parson would survive the "sure-to-lose" invasion of GK?? (was this discussed before?)

He wasn't certain. He was being lightheartedly polite and positive.

Actually, I've interpreted that as Charlie discovering that Parson is the result of the Perfect Warlord spell, and thus his enthusiasm to capture and have Parson work with him, right off the bat. It's efficient, too, since Charlescomm never had to pay to obtain the spell, but achieves the rewards.

[Selexor]

Regarding Selexor's scroll-in-one-hand-staff-in-other thing:

I think the reason for Jack and Wanda wielding the same equipment is to stack Foolamancy bonuses and make it impossible for the enemy to focus-fire Wanda or even to deduce which of the two casters is Wanda.

Duty indeed. If GK ends up losing Jack to win at Spacerock, it'll be sad day for Parson.

Hmm... not sure about that. It would explain why Jack's got the Healomancy scroll, but as we learned at Exposition Bridge, his illusions are broken if he loses concentration from, say, taking direct damage. And if he makes himself look like Wanda, it's pretty much guaranteed that he's going to get shot at. Even if Parson still had the Sword Of Ruthlesness guiding him, that plan would, at best, only hold up to a single arrow amongst the hundreds that will soon be flying. So even Ruthless!Parson wouldn't like that plan... and without the Sword, I doubt he'd risk Jack's life just to be a human shield for Wanda.

Plus, even if that is the plan, according to the directness of Parson's order, Jack's Staff still does count as a weapon. And that means I'm still curious to see what a Master-Class Foolamancer can do in a fight if you make him angry. I can think of a few ideas... most of them not being direct-damage spells, per se, but I'm guessing that if Jack Snipe does actually get his hands dirty in the fight to come, it'll be worth seeing for us, and not especially pleasant to have happen to you if you're from Jetstone.

[Dr Pepper]

Not quite. I don't think Jack wants to see the world burn, exactly...

That would be Sylvia aka Red.

Exercising my geek perogative to flit between subjects on the flimsiest connection:

Stargate: Universe has it's own version of Sylvia Scarlet, a red headed pirate captured a few months back who seems honestly interested in helping the crew of the Destiny. I was actually planning to mention her pending integration with crew, and therefor promotion ot a main character, as perhaps a foreshadowing of hope for our own Scarlet. Unfortunately, last episode she was killed by one of her pirate comrades who resented her cooperation. Or rather he killed her body. She had used a powerful alien artifact to temporarily swap souls with someone back on Earth, the only way the crew has to communicate, since at this point they aren't even sure what galaxy the automated starship has taken them to. Well who knows, maybe that is the foreshadowing.

[the_tick_rules]

I dunno about that. Red was around before stargate universe came out.

[joosy]

I dunno about that. Red was around before stargate universe came out.

and the Stargate Universe 'Red' just died. Still waiting for Sylvia's demise.

[Kyrt]

False dychotomy. Apparently Jack could come up with a defensive plan that did not involve abusing the portal convention. So it's at least a three way choice between death, survival (and fight another day), and victory. To say nothing of any other possible plans.

Jack also appears uncertain his plan would have worked. He also seems certain Parson plan will succeed.

First, Parson did not hear about this just now. He was in the MK before, and even if nobody explicitly stated any MK conventions to him, he can put 2 and 2 together. The MK must be neutral for its portals to be trusted.

AFAIR, and I may be wrong, the Portals are considered safe for a reason. If you aren't a caster, you can' t survive transit. Parson counts as a caster unit so he can do so, but most kingdoms won't risk their casters this way. Parsons wants to be there and that in turn implies that he isn't needed there to win.

Second, law is convention, and vice-versa in many cases. Conventions are also not entirely arbitrary, they serve some purpose. In this case, that convention gives the MK its neutrality. By choosing to flaunt a convention of neutrality, Parson is doing a morally dubious act. What he is doing now is tantamount to breeching a treaty and more significantly, jeopardizing the neutrality (even existence?) of the Magic Kingdom.

Hes gaming the system, pushing the rules as far as they can. This appears to be a game world which follows game rules. What he's doing is akin to playing by the rulebooks literal word.

Thirdly, ignorance of the law is never an excuse anyway. At most, a mitigation, if the law is obscure and the details are not necessarily obvious to common sense. This is not the case now. It's pretty clear what the convention is, and it's pretty clear that Parson knowingly decided to thumb his nose at it.

Partially because he, as a caster, apparently has the right and ability to enter the MK and that is a right the MK itself is unwilling to recognise. If the MK isn't willing to abide by its own conventions, why should he? As for ignorance of the law...that doesn't seem to apply. He wouldn't be able to do it if it were. Instead its simply the way things have always been done.

[atalex]

On a different note, I was rather disappointed with the first sentence of this update, i..e Jack's rather snide dismissal of Ossomer as "the bigger, more boring warlord." As someone who sees hidden depths in Ossomer waiting to be plumbed, it disappoints me that the most observant character in the comic doesn't, because that hints that the author doesn't find Ossomer interesting either and makes it far more likely that he's about to die messily in a few strips without all of his potential unrealized. Poor, doomed Ossomer, died, resurrected, died again in less than two turns.