Book 2 – Page 47

[justamessenger]

Don't remember if anyone mentioned this, but i think i sense a need for retconjuration:

"He violated a truce for parley!" said Tram. Shouldn't it be "a parley for truce" instead? Former means like...Parson violated a truce to be able to parley. The other means that a parley about truce was going on and he violated it.

Thoughts? I'm not trying to be a smartass, i just want to understand it fully.

Truce for parley: a cessation of hostilities while the negotiations are conducted.

At least that is my take on it.

[build6]

Hm, I agree that the sound effect would suggest that. And you got it right, I'm not a native English speaker, I'm German, so there.

dookie's a slang term for crap:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dookie

ah, Germany... never been there, but the exchange students made it sound so nice

[Goshen]

My tall tinfoil hat is whispering this to me:

GK is going to set fire to all that dwagon cwap which will completely destroy the city. Every person in Wanda Force has a scroll of either healing or fire/explosion protection which will enable most of them to survive the coming explosion. Except Ossimer who will be burned right out of his battle-diaper. Plot-wise, he really has monster-meat written all over him. The tower will allow the forces in it to survive, but they will be overwhelmed.

Nobody will ever Parley with Hamster again, except perhaps via thinkamancer.

[build6]

Don't remember if anyone mentioned this, but i think i sense a need for retconjuration:

"He violated a truce for parley!" said Tram. Shouldn't it be "a parley for truce" instead? Former means like...Parson violated a truce to be able to parley. The other means that a parley about truce was going on and he violated it.

Thoughts? I'm not trying to be a smartass, i just want to understand it fully.

I think you're parsing it in an unintended way (fairly common problem for English) -

you're reading it as:

- he violated a (truce) for (parley)

what I think it's to be read as:

- he violated a (truce for parley)

as in, he violated a truce, a truce that was for the purposes of parley.

[kagato23]

Dookie?!? They are launching a CA-CA bomb?!?

Oh wow; she's going to reanimate digested matter. EVERY ITEM with be a unique horror, never before seen- and loyal and obedient to her. The psychological weapon aspects alone should result in a riot. And rendering an army into a mob destroys the battle plan, and let's you pick people off with relative impunity. And then, to rub injury into insult, HE shows up from within, a 1 man 5th column, laying waste and working carnage like a scythe through wheat.

DIS one I GOTTA stay tuned for.

-Deliberatus

You know, if they trimancer re-linked, Sizemore and Wanda probably could create these new units. They uncroaked a volcano, they can probably uncroak crap. Into a new, uncroaked crap golem (maybe an uncrapped golem). Considering it's also made from Yellow Dragon battlecrap, it might also have properties normally associated with Acid Rock Golems. Between that, and the dual casters plus arkentool bonus if they were all in the same hex, you'd have some serious boop on your hands. *ba-dum ching*

[Foolamancer]

GK is going to set fire to all that dwagon cwap which will completely destroy the city. Every person in Wanda Force has a scroll of either healing or fire/explosion protection which will enable most of them to survive the coming explosion.

Then what the heck did "food fight" mean? I don't think dwagon crap counts as food, except in the absolute loosest sense of the word.

[danhaas]

Sizemore alone can create crap golems. He really should start working with acid crap as raw material.

That trimancer link could perhaps create Death Metal golems.

[Oberon]

Well you could argue that he didn't need to kill Ansom, he could have just skipped to the Volcano-trap, but somehow I dont think a WMD would stand up well in this discussion.

Skipping to the volcano trap would have been the dishonorable thing. Parson calculated that the death of Anson (removal of his CWL bonus) and the losses to the RCC from tower down, walls down, tunnels down was not sufficient to allow GK to win. The volcano was his sincere weapon of last resort.

It [violating parley] just means that you have to accept the consequences thereafter: You wont be trusted, and you cant rely on others to extend courtesies that you have abused.

Sure. But as others have pointed out, Queen Bea did so, and Jillian did so. That places the count evenly for the RCCII and GK, if you count pooping on the roof to be a violation of parley (I do. It is an offensive act when the poop is an attack mode, I was merely attempting humor.)

Even if the Royals did come to regard GK in a more favourable light, I still think Parson's actions will make Parley's strained at very (very) best. Really, if I were to parley with Parson, I would fully expect to get my throat slit by a Deceit Golem, halfway through offering him a beer.

The real challenge would be unbending Jetstone enough to allow for any kind of parley as equals looking for a path forward for both Sides. Look at the dialogue:

Tram: "How often did you rail against Stanley's dishonor? His "loathsome, crawling deceit and cowardice" I believe was the sort of thing you used to say."

His nickname amongst the RCC and RCCII: Stanley the worm.

Someone did a great job demonizing GK in preparation for the RCC, when all Jetstone had as a beef with them were a couple field unit clashes. Oh, and that whole inconceivable fact that a non-royal had a Side of respectable size. When ideology is used against other Sides, the RCC and now RCCII is fine with it. But they like not at all this concept that Toolism denotes a higher and more direct mandate, through attunement.

It's not like he's [Parson] killing civilians; everyone is a soldier and this is a war of extermination (unless he can make it otherwise).

Actually, the GK Side is the only one who isn't fighting a war of extinction. Via the powers of the 'Pliers, the fallen rise and continue on. It's the RCCII who would be putting all the GK forces who surrendered to the sword.

North Korea is a bad example to use. Because of the unique circumstances of their geography, NK is holding the capital of SK and its population hostage. They can do pretty much whatever they want and if the world takes any action - the Kims have no compunctions whatsoever about killing millions as a deterrent, or to further their aims. NK and the Kims aren't so much a state as a family run criminal organization with a gun to the heads of their deadliest enemy. They know that if anyone pulls a trigger, hundreds of thousands of civilians will be killed. The Kims have as much honor and restraint as a mexican drug gang. They don't wage war, they run a gang.

If Seoul were out of artillery range, things would be quite different. And if the Chinese weren't backing them, same thing.

North Korea is a perfect example, for all of the reasons you cited. A few minor corrections: Japan is also within range of their massive artillery barrage. They have very sophisticated (not first world quality, but very good) long range ballistic transport capabilities. They have plutonium nukes. They have an advanced uranium enrichment facility which they purposefully revealed to a western scientist.

Their entire reason for continuing on as a ruling regime is their strategy of threats and brinkmanship. They wanted to have their new uranium enrichment facility known to the west. Why? Because it is just one more saber they can rattle to gain concessions.

Personally, if I were running things, I'd amass an absolute crapload of IR seeker heads attached to dumb bombs. Wait until immediately after an exceptionally severe winter storm, then put up everything capable of carrying a load and drop 500 pounders on every heat source above a campfire. The only heated buildings in NK during the winter contain military brass and party officials, and the heat signals would make a decapitation strike fairly simple.

I've been in Korea during the winter, and let me tell you, NOBODY is going to be conducting ground operations after one of their blizzards. Especially if ever time you crank up an engine (or even better, a BUNCH of engines) and get them warm enough to move out, you get a bomb through the roof. And that's assuming you can even GET an engine started . . .

There would be a very nasty, bloody 24 hour period, but with the party leadership out of the way, the inherent inertia and total lack of initiative among the lower ranks would prevent any coherent response. And the world would be a MUCH safer place . . .

That's a solution which should have been planned for over the past 55 years. Soul built expensive condos right up to the DMZ when there should have been an effort made to harden all new construction, build underground as much as is possible, and/or establish a new city location out of range. Then your solution would be viable. Without that preparation I do not believe that South Korea, Japan, or the US is willing to accept that bloody 24 hour period, despite the potential annihilation of a brutal regime and the message that this would send to other nations such as Iran that there is a limit to the pushing that can be done before the gloves come off.

The most aggressive semi-military option I've heard was to make repeated air approaches to NK, forcing them to spend their limited stocks of fuel and lubrication on scrambling their air forces over and over. But is that even realistic if you don't intend to follow up with anything more telling? All that NK needs to do in response is start a limited shelling of Seoul and call for an end of the air approaches. And then they'd have done what they are best at: Engaging in threats and brinkmanship and forcing others to act to accommodate them

[Goshen]

GK is going to set fire to all that dwagon cwap which will completely destroy the city. Every person in Wanda Force has a scroll of either healing or fire/explosion protection which will enable most of them to survive the coming explosion.

Then what the heck did "food fight" mean? I don't think dwagon crap counts as food, except in the absolute loosest sense of the word.

I thought it a metaphor for inappropriate behavior in battle.

[MattR]

This is the third time Gobwin Knob has pulled a fast one on Jetstone, Trem should know by now talking goes nowhere GK always take some kind of action.

1. Ansom Parley. ------------ A Twoll did it!
2. Ossomer/Trem parley at bridge. ------We can fly, they can fly etc etc....
3. Trem right now. --- oh cwap

Also, i dont see how what happened at the bridge is any different to this move with the cwap. The result is still the same, jetstone outthought and outplayed.
Unless you really want ot argue that ansom muttering 'we have nothing left to discuss' somehow makes the whole experience more honorable.

Further when Jillian changed whos turn it was mid parley noone on the jetstone side were crying 'thats not honorable.' they were just happy they werent going to be annihilated. Now someone pulled a similar trick on them theyre complaining about how unfair it is.

[danhaas]

I don't think JS was foolish by parleying with GK.
The first parley could be an honest surrender, which would save RCC1 some units.
The second parley was unnecessary, but they thought they were quite safe there and JS's casters (their most valuable units) were well protected. Remember that RCC2 had a chance of croaking Jack or Wanda during that kidnapping.
And the third parley was VERY safe from JS's perspective, if you consider that it's JS's turn. They called GK's army near the tower to make them a better target for AA magic, and breaking through the roof is indeed original.

Now, JS is naive by putting their CWL at the first row of its army. That is arrogant. That sort of heroic leadership is nice if you have a small, low-motivated army, but if you are commanding thousands of units, gtfo of the fire and Command. Your army needs you alive.

Note that if JS had sent any other unit, like a lesser warlord, nothing of this would happen. A thinkagram through Charlie, Bunny or a hired thinkamancer, or just asking GK to open a thinkagram, would be even more effective.

GK sending Ansom and the casters at the first row of the army isn't very wise too. Look where that led them. Parson does have Plot Armor, but I hope he doesn't try to take the front row of his army or he will learn first hand how many hit points he has.

[Glome]

Also, i dont see how what happened at the bridge is any different to this move with the cwap. The result is still the same, jetstone outthought and outplayed.
Unless you really want ot argue that ansom muttering 'we have nothing left to discuss' somehow makes the whole experience more honorable.

Further when Jillian changed whos turn it was mid parley noone on the jetstone side were crying 'thats not honorable.' they were just happy they werent going to be annihilated. Now someone pulled a similar trick on them theyre complaining about how unfair it is.

Unlike the crap attack, the bridge incident though happened after parley had ended and both sides knew that hostilities would continue, it was completely fair and not breaking any sort of convention. It would be no different than if Ossomer refused Tremmanis' offer of peace, went back to the flyer group and Jetstone shot down everyone one, which is how it probably would have played out without Parson around.

[Sieggy]

But according to the 'accepted' rules, Trem feels perfectly safe - he's in a zone that none of the GK forces can cross, and it's not GKs turn. In his experience, there's nothing that Ossomer or GK can do to hurt him up there on the tower. It's not hubris. He, personally, is quite safe from any attack . . . for now. In a few minutes, of course, he may be asking Ace just HOW that jetpack works, anyway. But at this point in time, both he and Slately are unassailable.

A couple of points - first, the acidic cwap would have no effect on a glass roof, other than the mass of it busting through the panes. Glass is stable, and acids are stored in glass jugs. It would certainly affect the frame, though. But the weight of the cwap from ANY the dwagons would be more than enough to break the glass, which means that those inside are taking damage not only from the falling dwagon dookies (gotta love it!), but from the very sharp shards of glass raining down upon them. The acid damage is just the icing on the cake, not to mention the embarrassment & outrage of being cwapped on by the enemy. And it's REALLY gotta stink like hell in there, too . . . (have to wonder on many minuses that makes to morale and accuracy . . ?)

Now, one thing I have to wonder is if dwagon breath weapons simply hosed into the openings will, if not directed at a specific target, would be stopped by the zone boundary, or settle past it? If the green dwagons have a gas attack, would the gas form a layer above the zone (same thing with the tutti-futti pink dwagon schtuff), or would it be subject to the laws of physics and simply settle to the ground? If the former, it would be difficult to shoot through, and if the latter, that's more damage those inside would be taking . . .

[build6]

But according to the 'accepted' rules, Trem feels perfectly safe - he's in a zone that none of the GK forces can cross, and it's not GKs turn. In his experience, there's nothing that Ossomer or GK can do to hurt him up there on the tower. It's not hubris. He, personally, is quite safe from any attack . . . for now. In a few minutes, of course, he may be asking Ace just HOW that jetpack works, anyway. But at this point in time, both he and Slately are unassailable.

A couple of points - first, the acidic cwap would have no effect on a glass roof, other than the mass of it busting through the panes. Glass is stable, and acids are stored in glass jugs. It would certainly affect the frame, though. But the weight of the cwap from ANY the dwagons would be more than enough to break the glass, which means that those inside are taking damage not only from the falling dwagon dookies (gotta love it!), but from the very sharp shards of glass raining down upon them. The acid damage is just the icing on the cake, not to mention the embarrassment & outrage of being cwapped on by the enemy. And it's REALLY gotta stink like hell in there, too . . . (have to wonder on many minuses that makes to morale and accuracy . . ?)

Now, one thing I have to wonder is if dwagon breath weapons simply hosed into the openings will, if not directed at a specific target, would be stopped by the zone boundary, or settle past it? If the green dwagons have a gas attack, would the gas form a layer above the zone (same thing with the tutti-futti pink dwagon schtuff), or would it be subject to the laws of physics and simply settle to the ground? If the former, it would be difficult to shoot through, and if the latter, that's more damage those inside would be taking . . .

I think the breath will just stop at the boundary. I mean, it's a wierd mish-mash of "laws of Physics as per Earth" + "game mechanics/limitations". If arrows will stop in midflight at a zone boundary, I think gas would be able to affect beyond the boundary. Some things seem to work exactly as they do here, some things don't, and I'm thinking this falls under the "don't" category (though of course I could be wrong .

likewise, the mass of the acid - I can see how it breaks the roof, and I think it could go either way for whether there'd be "Falling glass damage" - but I like the "morale and accuracy" penalty idea, heh

Tramennis... y'know. I found it rather telling that there was that bit when he was talking to Ossomer about being passed over for promotion - he certainly can do "nasty", and not just "nice" (per "diplomat"). I don't see it as truly malicious though, more of a probe-Ossomer-and-see-what-can-get-a-reaction, kind of thing.

[Nihila]

@ Sieggy & build6: The Airspace-Courtyard boundary is the air...

[Roketter]

No, the boundary is the ground, so the dwagon can go trough the roof holes as long as they still flying above ground level while inside buildings... wich means they can hide inside that building while off-turn.

Most likely they'll wait for TRammenis to be seconds from ordering the attack, so they get their movility restored by having the last stragler dwagons taking some hits and start killing infantery right away.

I mean, if they are attacked, then that allows them to strike back as the battle gets started in a sort of "Real time", but still they don't want to have all their dragons as targets in the open.

[Nihila]

No, the boundary is the ground, so the dwagon can go trough the roof holes as long as they still flying above ground level while inside buildings... wich means they can hide inside that building while off-turn.

Doy! I meant ground, but typed air. So the Infantry on the ground are completely open to breath weapon attacks, and their bodies will be above the zone barrier, so they'll be targets for decryption.

[Radagast]

If they are going to violate parley anyway, why not some more foolamancy and then a yellow-dragon dive bomber vs. the tower - with the King and the Prince standing right there in plain sight?

[joosy]

So the Infantry on the ground are completely open to breath weapon attacks, and their bodies will be above the zone barrier, so they'll be targets for decryption.

I believe you cannot intentionally attack units in another zone without crossing that zone. The one exception being that yellow dwagons' attacks follow the laws of gravity. I do not think breath weapon or other attacks can be done across the zone unless the attacker 'moves' (aka falls) into the Garrison zone. That would then engage the 'some damage/incapacitate/croak' rule of falling on the attacker. Otherwise, Charlie's Archons could have picked off GK's ground units with their energy attacks during the Battle of Gobwin Knob even though it wasn't the archons' turn.

Now, yes, I imagine that flying units can get very close to the ground but to be able to attack they have to 'fall' into the ground/Garrison zone. In the scene between Ansom and Wanda where Wanda begs him to touch her with the pliers I imagine that would have cost Ansom two move (one to cross the zone to 'touch' Wanda and another to move back to the airspace afterwards.)

[joosy]

If they are going to violate parley anyway, why not some more foolamancy and then a yellow-dragon dive bomber vs. the tower - with the King and the Prince standing right there in plain sight?

Because they cannot attack the tower. The zone between the airspace and the tower would stop all attacks and any acidic battle crap would slide and fall onto the ground below. The only reason the battle crap can hit the garrison is because it is FALLING. Their is no falling exploit between the Airspace and Tower (at least non mentioned) only between the Airspace and the Garrison. Also the casters would let loose the tower defenses and the archers would let loose with the arrows. Also if Jack attempts any Foolamancy he runs a high risk of it being seen by the many warlords in the tower thus also initiating the tower defense and arrow attack.

Parson's goal is not to violate parley and not to 'survive' but rather how to still win. Attacking the tower is suicide with little to no chance of success. His current plan has much better odds. However, it all depends on if they can make the transition from Airspace to Garrison with at least Wanda intact.

Long term repercussions: Stanley is not going to be happy about having a lot of his dwagons now being loyal to the ArkenPliers and not the ArkenHammer. Given Ossomer's speech regarding whom he and the other decrypted serve I can see how that could very well become a significant issue. But leave it to Stanley to find the cloud in the silver lining.