Erfworld Game Revived?

[HerbieRai]

Is heavy a special I can give to units?

Surveyor special is going to cost 10/ turn (since it uses 2 points to get) in upkeep. The only time the 4% is going to make money is on mines and lumberyards, and even then its not enough to cover the units upkeep, unless is a stabber/ piker and you get the double mine bonus, in which case the unit breaks even with upkeep.

Should fliers be immune to ground melee retaliation? http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-11-18.jpg second to last panel.

Edit:
Also, I can have a piker that can carry 16 stabbers (2 stacks) because its a vessel

[Nihila]

Also, I can have a piker that can carry 16 stabbers (2 stacks) because its a vessel

I think that since there's a Cargo stat, Vessel is pretty much superfluous.

Also, the +5 upkeep per point into specials... It works for basic units, because you don't really want those buying a lot of specials. For Special Units, on the other hand, where the point is to buy specials and combine them creatively, the huge increases to upkeep strike me as draconian. I think that the penalty should be kept for basic units (piker/stabber/archer/scout) but eliminated for all other units.

[thetobias]

Yay, nitpickery: it makes a ruleset this much better if people try to minmax it while it's built

@ Nihila
Under "Desert," it should be "1.5 move/hex" rather than "1.5 move/turn."
Changed that

Also, "Frightening" seems a little overpowered. Maybe units with Frightening can reduce an enemy leadership bonus by an amount equal to the level of the highest level Frightening unit.
Yeah, I think that would do

Last thing: in the description of units A/B, it's stated that they can buy "specials with the simple descriptor such as mount and flight." Flight is listed as a complex special.
Oops! I copied that from kaeds ruleset but in darkarbiters ruleset flight is complex (i think I'm going to change flight to a simple special though (I always envisioned the gwiffons of faq as a A or B special).

Are Courtiers Riders?
No, they can still ride mounts, but they get a -4 penalty to defense. Since they have 0 defense and no stat can be negative this means they do not suffer any ill effects.


Do Courtiers, Warlords, and Casters of a Terrain-based side receive the automatic Terrain Capability?
Yes

@herbierai
Is heavy a special I can give to units?
No, they automatically gain the special upon gaining 11 or more BASE hits. It also gives them no benefits, but two penalties (not able to enter tunnel, not able to mount)

Surveyor special is going to cost 10/ turn (since it uses 2 points to get) in upkeep. The only time the 4% is going to make money is on mines and lumberyards, and even then its not enough to cover the units upkeep, unless is a stabber/ piker and you get the double mine bonus, in which case the unit breaks even with upkeep.
How about 10% per level (maxing at 100%) (this would mean a level 10 unit with surveyor would double the output of a resource)

Should fliers be immune to ground melee retaliation? http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-18.jpg second to last panel.
Yes, they are immune to ground retaliation UNLESS they engage ground melee stacks in melee (so a couple of flyers with mounted archers could slowly pick of a unit of infantry without flyers or ranged.

Also, I can have a piker that can carry 16 stabbers (2 stacks) because its a vessel
Since that special seems to be more trouble than it's worth I've decided to drop it.


Also, the +5 upkeep per point into specials... It works for basic units, because you don't really want those buying a lot of specials. For Special Units, on the other hand, where the point is to buy specials and combine them creatively, the huge increases to upkeep strike me as draconian. I think that the penalty should be kept for basic units (piker/stabber/archer/scout) but eliminated for all other units.
I was planning out a speech about this and then saw that yes 5$/turn/point is kind of stupid. I am dropping the 5$/t/p for ABCD and knights.

EDIT: Also, could one of you draw up a test side so I could run some simulations with the combat system?

[Twoy]

I wrote a long post about the chance to pop a caster and lost the post. So to summarize. I think casters should pop more quickly than they do with the formula 1 in 1+6^x chance. When the formula was first created we thought that a side very rarely popped more than a third caster. Since then we have learned that Jetstone has four.

With the formula 1 in 1+6^x chance, a player has to pop 216 warlords (on average) in order to get four casters. Dark Arbiter changed the formula to 1 in 1+5^x chance, which meant we only had to pop 126 warlords to get four casters. I really think we could go as low as 1 in 1+4^x chance, giving a possibility for four casters at about the same time as we pop our 65th warlord. Opinions?

[thetobias]

Hm.. Yes, I think I'll change that

[Nihila]

It looks good to me too.

Edit: thetobias, you requested a Test Side.
Test Side:
Napoleonic France Ripoff
Infantry:
Stabbers: Conscripts: 5-3-1-5, Ranged, 40 upkeep
Pikers: Garrisons: 7-4-3-0(2), Ranged, 30(40) upkeep
Scouts: Cavalry Outriders: 3-1-0-8, 8=Scout Link Range, 30 upkeep
Archers: Voltigeurs: 5-6-0-0(5), Ranged, 30(40) upkeep
Knights: Chasseurs a Cheval: 10-10-10-4, Ranged, Rider, 90 upkeep

Special Units:
A-units: Grenadiers: 6-5-3-5, Ranged, 40 upkeep
B-units: Lancers: 6-7-3-3, Rider, 40 upkeep
C-units: Warhorses: 6-6-6-12, Mount, Fast, 70 upkeep
D-units: Cannons: 15-26-6-12, Ranged, Siege, 200 upkeep

Naval Units:
A-ships: Rafts: 6-2-2-7, 10 Cargo, 60 upkeep
B-ships: Troop Transports: 8-5-5-7, 20 Cargo, 90 upkeep
C-ships: Frigates: 10-15-11-7, 30 Cargo, 130 upkeep

[thetobias]

Heh Going to shoot or liberate your enemies? You'd probably have an overlord instead of a ruler too eh?

[Twoy]

Mine - Can be build on a mountain or volcano hex. Building a mine causes the hex to gain a tunnel zone. A mine produces 500$/turn and also has a 1,5% chance of striking a gem node every turn which increases the mine output by an extra 500$ (5 turns)

1. Is the schmucker increase from the discovery of gems permanent?
2. Unless the map is going to be very small, I think you have reduced the move a bit too much. Pikers and Archers won't even be able to move through mountains unless a warlord or courtier builds a road in front of them.
3. I'm a bit concerned about having no restriction on space between cities. I think the rule will work; however, in the game we never see cities adjacent to each other. If this rule stays, I would be very likely to have seven cities adjacent to each other as a super capital.
4. I'm also a bit concerned about balance from unknow caster spells. For example, Player A's biggest unit is a fire dwagon, and Player B's biggest unit is a lightning dwagon. Unfortunately, Player B did not know that Player A's Shockamancer can negate lightning damage, whereas there are no pyromancers to negate the fire damage.
5. Will warlords and casters gain xp from governing cities as do courtiers? I think they should, but I think casters should not be able to cast spells on the same turn that they are governing.
6. Can casters build city upgrades?
7. Does building city upgrades give xp?
8. The Bubble and Smoke specials only affect one unit. The Battlecrap special affects all units in a hex. It's not clear how many units are affected by the Acid special.
9. You already said you will downgrade the Frightening special, but it has not yet been changed. I think it should only affect the stack it is being used against and not the entire hex.

[thetobias]

Ignoring the annoying spambot, on to answering more questions:

1. Is the schmucker increase from the discovery of gems permanent?
No, it is 5 turns as in Kaed's game, it was a typo.

2. Unless the map is going to be very small, I think you have reduced the move a bit too much. Pikers and Archers won't even be able to move through mountains unless a warlord or courtier builds a road in front of them.
Would pikers and archers irl be able to? you are going to need mountain capable units or flyers in mountains. I might increase move by one or two depending on the map size though. You will in any case be needing quick mounts.

3. I'm a bit concerned about having no restriction on space between cities. I think the rule will work; however, in the game we never see cities adjacent to each other. If this rule stays, I would be very likely to have seven cities adjacent to each other as a super capital.
Wuh? How would this be likely? a supercapital is a tactical disadvantage (putting eggs in one basket). Also two cities won't be able to benefit from the same tile.

4. I'm also a bit concerned about balance from unknow caster spells. For example, Player A's biggest unit is a fire dwagon, and Player B's biggest unit is a lightning dwagon. Unfortunately, Player B did not know that Player A's Shockamancer can negate lightning damage, whereas there are no pyromancers to negate the fire damage.
Since when do shockamancers negate lightning damage? Besides I have not decided on damage types yet. A deletionist (yes they have been retconned back in to existence in New Erf) or weirdomancer could probably negate it but the shockamancer will deal damage instead of negating it

5. Will warlords and casters gain xp from governing cities as do courtiers? I think they should, but I think casters should not be able to cast spells on the same turn that they are governing.
I agree with you, warlords will gain xp (at the same rate of the courtier) if they spend their whole turn managing the city. Casters will not be able to manage or build.

6. Can casters build city upgrades?
Nope

7. Does building city upgrades give xp?
Nope

8. The Bubble and Smoke specials only affect one unit. The Battlecrap special affects all units in a hex. It's not clear how many units are affected by the Acid special.
Bubble, smoke and acid now affect one stack, battlecrap doubles the units attack while attacking ground units.

9. You already said you will downgrade the Frightening special, but it has not yet been changed. I think it should only affect the stack it is being used against and not the entire hex.
Downgraded, now it only lowers the leadership bonus by the level of the highest frightening unit.

[Nihila]

Two things:
First, and most nitpicky, the word "Desert" is misspelled under the description of an Oasis.

Second, under "Combat," it states that units fight in stacks of eight. I think that there should be a multiplicative bonus for being in a stack of eight, which should drop off on either side--dropping off faster for numbers larger than eight.


Edit: Also, do roads and Canals have to be built in a city's zone of control?

[HerbieRai]

Second, under "Combat," it states that units fight in stacks of eight. I think that there should be a multiplicative bonus for being in a stack of eight, which should drop off on either side--dropping off faster for numbers larger than eight.

I actually have to disagree with this, at least with the methods used so far. In many, having 9 to 13 is actually still better than having 8. Although the "bonus" is lower, the decrease is made up for the fact by having the extra unit's attack added in. I think having the 9th unit should delete all the bonus, which makes having any more completely useless. Again, this all depends on which method Thetobias chooses, but I can give exact examples with other games if you wish.

[Nihila]

I actually have to disagree with this, at least with the methods used so far. In many, having 9 to 13 is actually still better than having 8. Although the "bonus" is lower, the decrease is made up for the fact by having the extra unit's attack added in. I think having the 9th unit should delete all the bonus, which makes having any more completely useless. Again, this all depends on which method Thetobias chooses, but I can give exact examples with other games if you wish.

Fair enough, especially in an additive system. The max attack for any unit is 32 points(D-unit with Fire Breath, all other points into Attack, no other specials), so if the bonus for a stack is +4 per unit at 8 units, there's little to gain by adding the extra unit. A good Leader with Dance-Fighting could make it just worth it, even then it would be a pretty close-run thing.

[Twoy]

1. Is the schmucker increase from the discovery of gems permanent?
No, it is 5 turns as in Kaed's game, it was a typo.

You still need to update the rules.

2. Unless the map is going to be very small, I think you have reduced the move a bit too much. Pikers and Archers won't even be able to move through mountains unless a warlord or courtier builds a road in front of them.
Would pikers and archers irl be able to? you are going to need mountain capable units or flyers in mountains. I might increase move by one or two depending on the map size though. You will in any case be needing quick mounts.

Pikers and Archers can pass through mountains irl, though high mountains could cause lots of casualties and would probably be passable only for a few months a year.

3. I'm a bit concerned about having no restriction on space between cities. I think the rule will work; however, in the game we never see cities adjacent to each other. If this rule stays, I would be very likely to have seven cities adjacent to each other as a super capital.
Wuh? How would this be likely? a supercapital is a tactical disadvantage (putting eggs in one basket). Also two cities won't be able to benefit from the same tile.

A super capital is only a tactical disadvantage if you get rushed when you are unprepared. There are also critical defensive advantages to having all of your cities within defensive range of your capital. Anyways, I see you've changed it to two hexes in the rules. I take it that you mean there must be two hexes between cities, i.e. City, Hex, Hex, City.

4. I'm also a bit concerned about balance from unknow caster spells. For example, Player A's biggest unit is a fire dwagon, and Player B's biggest unit is a lightning dwagon. Unfortunately, Player B did not know that Player A's Shockamancer can negate lightning damage, whereas there are no pyromancers to negate the fire damage.
Since when do shockamancers negate lightning damage? Besides I have not decided on damage types yet. A deletionist (yes they have been retconned back in to existence in New Erf) or weirdomancer could probably negate it but the shockamancer will deal damage instead of negating it

My point is that if we don't know what the spells are going to be until after the game has started, we won't know what are good and bad strategies for creating our side/units.

5. Will warlords and casters gain xp from governing cities as do courtiers? I think they should, but I think casters should not be able to cast spells on the same turn that they are governing.
I agree with you, warlords will gain xp (at the same rate of the courtier) if they spend their whole turn managing the city. Casters will not be able to manage or build.

Sounds good.

8. The Bubble and Smoke specials only affect one unit. The Battlecrap special affects all units in a hex. It's not clear how many units are affected by the Acid special.
Bubble, smoke and acid now affect one stack, battlecrap doubles the units attack while attacking ground units.

Does Battlecrap and Breath Weapon stack?

9. You already said you will downgrade the Frightening special, but it has not yet been changed. I think it should only affect the stack it is being used against and not the entire hex.
Downgraded, now it only lowers the leadership bonus by the level of the highest frightening unit.

[/quote]Looks good now. [quote="thetobias"]

[thetobias]

You still need to update the rules.
Updated now

Pikers and Archers can pass through mountains irl, though high mountains could cause lots of casualties and would probably be passable only for a few months a year.
No they cannot. High mountains are like the himalayas, actually impassible. Normal mountains are a little more passible but if you're not mountain capable or flying your going to have to go through hills.

A super capital is only a tactical disadvantage if you get rushed when you are unprepared. There are also critical defensive advantages to having all of your cities within defensive range of your capital. Anyways, I see you've changed it to two hexes in the rules. I take it that you mean there must be two hexes between cities, i.e. City, Hex, Hex, City.
Nihila made a good point and now there have to be at least 2 hexes between two cities.

My point is that if we don't know what the spells are going to be until after the game has started, we won't know what are good and bad strategies for creating our side/units.
True, I'm still working on a spell list. As soon as I'm done with it you'll see it, promise.

Does Battlecrap and Breath Weapon stack?
Both increase the combat of a single unit, not of the stack.

[Nihila]

Both increase the combat of a single unit, not of the stack.

Can a single unit buy both?

Edit: Other stuff:
"Desert" is misspelled under the description of "Oasis."

Do roads and canals have to be built in a city's zone of control?

What was your plan for a combat system?

It says that Hits increases by 1.5 per point. Does a .5 at the end of a Hits score round up?

[Twoy]

Special D Unit:
Jabberwock--15/6/6/12.
Mount (2), Ranged (2), Flight (2), siege (2), Fast (3), Fabrication (3) Fire Breath (6), Battlecrap (4)

Would this unit get BasicAttack+Fire+Battlecrap while attacking ground units?

6+8=14 doubled for Battlecrap=28 vs. ground units?

6+8=14 vs. flying units?

[thetobias]

"Desert" is misspelled under the description of "Oasis."
Oops

Do roads and canals have to be built in a city's zone of control?
No, roads, canals and outposts can be built outside of your cities. (updated the outposts so they act like a scout.

What was your plan for a combat system?
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... y=CLzOgekI
Every time a stack engages another all the values are filled: Base Attack is the units attack after specials like breath and battlecrap are added. Base Defense is defense after specials are added. Leadership is the leadership score of the unit. Terrain capability is wether the unit is terrain capable or not, Caster bonus is the leaderhip bonus of a caster (if aplicable (think golems, uncroaked), ambush bonus multiplies an ambushing units combat by 2 (currently it says defense (as soon as my internet starts freaking and I can update google docs I'll edit that)). After that it's multiplied by a random number between .5 and 1.5.
Both sides roll for attack and for defense. Subtract their defense from the other's attack if there is still attack left units in the stack start taking damage as they were stacked. (this last part only counts for unled stacks attacking unled stacks, if one of the stacks is led the warlord can choose to target other enemies.

It says that Hits increases by 1.5 per point. Does a .5 at the end of a Hits score round up?
Nope, you have to buy it twice to get a 3 points increase, just as with Kaed's rules.

About the stacking of breath with battlecrap:

Battlecrap only doubles BASE attack, not attack after specials, so this jabberwock would be:
6*2+8=20 against ground units
6+8=14 against air units

[Nihila]

What was your plan for a combat system?
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key%20...%20y=CLzOgekI
Every time a stack engages another all the values are filled: Base Attack is the units attack after specials like breath and battlecrap are added. Base Defense is defense after specials are added. Leadership is the leadership score of the unit. Terrain capability is wether the unit is terrain capable or not, Caster bonus is the leaderhip bonus of a caster (if aplicable (think golems, uncroaked), ambush bonus multiplies an ambushing units combat by 2 (currently it says defense (as soon as my internet starts freaking and I can update google docs I'll edit that)). After that it's multiplied by a random number between .5 and 1.5.
Both sides roll for attack and for defense. Subtract their defense from the other's attack if there is still attack left units in the stack start taking damage as they were stacked. (this last part only counts for unled stacks attacking unled stacks, if one of the stacks is led the warlord can choose to target other enemies.

So is it just not possible to have a stack of more than 8 units?

Also, the spreadsheet seems to have a small problem with negative numbers--though the first side rolled a defense of about 67 and the second's attack was around 65, the first side still took damage.

[thetobias]

Nope, sorry. This is cannon. I think that I will count mounted units and their mount as one unit for stacking purposes though.

[Twoy]

Spreadsheet still needs some work. Perhaps the random number should be .75 to 1.25. I'm seeing some possibilities where two identical stacks meet in battle. Neither has terrain capability. One stack is destroyed and the other stack loses only one piker.

Another situation. First stack should have taken 54 damage. Instead unit 1 went from 5 Hits to +59 hits.