Book 2 – Page 48

[Oberon]

Battlecrap may not remain acidic.

Like most things Erfworld, it probably lasts the entire turn, then depops. Just like the bubble-gum effect.

And above all, Wanda has to hit the ground running, because probably the single most important part of the plan is speed. If she's too slow, she's screwed.

If she is slow, you say?

"It is not quite as imbalanced as it appears," said Jack. "Consider. All of these dwagons are alive, as are most of the riders, as am I. We can take a great deal of damage before we are croaked. Defenses will be used, arrows will be used, juice will be spent on us. And then..."

He leaned forward and tapped the Arkenpliers with his cane, affronting the Decrypted and annoying Wanda. "...must be spent again. Provided you are alive. And quick enough to catch us as we fall."

(my emphasis)

I'm pretty hard to get angry. I'm an easygoing kind of guy in the first place, and I spend a lot of time on forums discussing issues much more inflammatory than Erfworld rule exploits. I've been told on a couple of forums, though, that I come across as angry, cold, or arrogant when I don't mean to. It's probably the lack of smiley faces in my posts.

I get the same. It's text, that's all. The reader can't see your expression, or hear the tone of your voice. If you don't go out of your way to convey your attitude, it has to be inferred by the reader. And the reader often reads text darker than it is intended. I get the same thing on occasion, for the sin of arguing my case on the facts as I see them and for failing to take the time to be demonstratively non-aggressive or to otherwise soften the message while doing so. No one likes being told that they are wrong, no matter how well that conclusion is backed by facts. Even if it is just one more opinion in the s-storm of them.

[boegiboe]

Althernai wrote:

boegiboe wrote:

2b. They didn't cross illegally, though. In their own city, on their own turn, they can cross zones at will; hence, only the ground-smacking part of falling damage applied. Not the zone-crossing part. That's the point I haven't seen made before. Sorry if it seems pedantic.

There is no "zone-crossing part". Crossing zone doesn't inflict damage -- it just either is or is not possible. The reason jumping off of a mount is not used as a means of crossing from the airspace to the courtyard is because it counts as a fall. Parson found a cheat that appears to mitigate the fall's natural shockamancy to some extent (they fall very slowly).

If Archon Airlines carries a person in the airspace down to 1 millimeter above the other-zone ground and says "Watch your step as you disembark!", and you step off, you suffer a "fall." If the Archon officiously vaporizes your uncroaked unipegatar mount a hectometer off the other-zone ground, you also suffer a "fall." I have been assuming that the distance fallen has an effect, AND the illegal zone-crossing has an effect. that is, there is a special penalty for crossing zones illegally in this way.

What you are saying is there's no reason to assume this. Any fall counts as a fall. The distance fallen goes into the formula for damage iff the Shockamancy does not instantly croak you.

I can't argue you're wrong, but I don't believe you can argue I'm wrong, either. Yes, your proposed rule is simpler, but mine punishes the tactic heavily, which would be why it's not used more often.

[Selexor]

Of course the tower can try to attack units, but where does it say nothing can prevent this? Screening seems to be just putting something in between you too. The baffle seem to make a miss capable. Similar how we are told the tower can attack air units, archers can attack air units, but arrows can be blocked. The archons in TBfGK could attack Wanda, but she had little trouble blocking it. I truly doubt the tower can shoot through a stone wall, like say... the one in the atrium.

Mostly I got it from here. Jack observes specifically that the Tower can strike any unit in the Airspace, and moving around in the Airspace will not save them. And also, that they can only hover over the walls and buildings, which to me implies that they can't drop down for cover behind a building without actually landing. It doesn't specifically say that you can't hide under the partially-damaged roof of the Atrium, but the combination of "Any unit in the Airspace can be shot down" and "The Airspace is the area over the buildings" was enough to convince me.

Luckily you can mount multiple units on dwagons, as has been shown repeatedly. Also we note that Jillian was planning on mounting three warlords, Ansom, Elf-guy, and Vinny to rescue them from the dwagon dougnut of doom. So you can mount flying infantry such as Vinny, and presumably the archons.

Not quite sure where that's from... the closest I could find was this page where Vinny suggests punching through the dwagon doughnut. And in that, Vinny's flying under his own power. You're right, of course, more than one unit can ride a dwagon, but we don't know if flight-capable units can ride flying mounts. Not all units can; heavies obviously cannot, so it's not unreasonable to think fliers can't either.
Besides, even if they can, the Hobgobwins are already dropping. Parson gave the announcement that the Hobgobwins were now upgraded, and we know from Parson upgrading himself that it would have been instantaneous. There's simply not enough time for another unit to jump onto a Hobgobwin's dwagon, or vice versa... and even if it did, The Banana Exploit might only work for the dwagon and the heavy in question. A light unit might get bucked off, and promptly fall.

We know that some Healomancy can, sure. But we don't know exactly what those scrolls are, nor what scrolls fall into Healomancy's discipline.

Well, every healomancy scroll we've seen up to this point is a generic healing scroll that restores people to relative health. So I'm not sure why they would be different here.

Ah, Foolamancer and I had a similar discussion here. That's where our Healomancy speculation comes from. Don't get me wrong, I agree the scrolls are obviously going to help Wanda, Jack and the others survive their fall. It's just that, from a strategic point of view, the way in which they'll help is important. That's why I bring it up.

If she is slow, you say?

"It is not quite as imbalanced as it appears," said Jack. "Consider. All of these dwagons are alive, as are most of the riders, as am I. We can take a great deal of damage before we are croaked. Defenses will be used, arrows will be used, juice will be spent on us. And then..."

He leaned forward and tapped the Arkenpliers with his cane, affronting the Decrypted and annoying Wanda. "...must be spent again. Provided you are alive. And quick enough to catch us as we fall."

(my emphasis)

Different strategies, same difficulties. In both scenarios, Jetstone has the sheer might available to destroy the Gobwin Knob forces, and victory for Gobwin Knob depends entirely on their forces - and mainly Wanda - cutting the head off of Jetstone before it can bring its power to bear. Hesitate long enough for Tramennis to give the execution order, and it's game over.
Good comparison!

[Gribble]

I am noting a couple things people have not touched on.

Tram did two important things when he belayed his father's orders. First, he ordered all the troops out of the atrium. Second, he ordered only the tower defenses be used to hit the defenders. I believe that means they are not attacking - only defending.

I don't think GK's forces have been "attacked" according to the rules yet. His moving the forces out of the atrium was his way of reducing casualties and preventing any combat from starting in case any GK forces fall and don't die.

Those that are saying he is in HERP DERP mode are missing just how smart he is being if this ends up being what is happening. At least smart from the perspective he is preventing GK troops from having any way to continue attacking his forces.

He just doesn't know what is coming.

[Sieggy]

I think Jack's observation that they could be hit anywhere in the airspace was before there was a big honkin' hole in the Atrium roof, and there was noplace where they could find cover. At that point, they were just big targets. Now, they can retreat to at least some degree of cover. They're still going to take heavy casualties - that's a given. But with Wanda's decryption, the Dwagons will have to be killed twice.

And let's face it - if the archers have a choice between shooting at Dwagons attacking THEM and ground forces inside the Atrium, they're going to go after the enemy threatening them, personally. And I strongly suspect that Parson is expecting the air forces to be slain, but that give them a chance to take the Tower from within. Once again, archers are terrible in close combat, especially against heavy infantry.

But the real wild card will be Parson himself. I fully expect him to play a major part in the battle, though what it is remains to be seen. And whether or not Maggie and Sizemore accompany him . . .

[Dante]

Clearly, you can attack off-turn, because GK already did. "Target unlead infantry" is an attack order. What is meant by being "unable to attack" off-turn is that you cannot attack units in zones that you do not occupy, something that bombing is an exception to. It should be noted that this is a situational incongruity created by Kingworld -- normally, there's little to no reason to have high-move bombers in airspace over a hex where you have no ground troops on a turn other than your own (and why would you bomb your own hex?) and normally you wouldn't have enemy troops in your hex to attack off-turn unless they came in from another hex on their own turn.

As for Spacerock's ranged attack capabilities, Jack seemed to think they could hold out until they could flee the battlespace using Foolamancy to increase evasion and Decryption to revive screening units. I think we may see that come into play, still, since dropping the Hobgobwins and their mounts already gives GK significant seige and infantry on the ground, which might be enough to take the dungeon and destroy the tower while all attention is otherwise focused on downing the airborne stacks.

[Selexor]

But the real wild card will be Parson himself. I fully expect him to play a major part in the battle, though what it is remains to be seen. And whether or not Maggie and Sizemore accompany him . . .

Full agreement here.

Even assuming a best-case scenario for Gobwin Knob takes place, and they manage to get their full force into the Atrium, taking the tower will still be tough. Archers may not be great at melee, but archers with big bonuses and magical items? And, let's not forget the Casters, who are being boosted by the Tower. Ace Hardware borrows a magic-boosting hat from Cubbins and summons a couple of stacks of his beloved Action Figures. These hold the base of the Tower Stairs while the archers fire down at the invading Gobwin Knobbers. There's also whatever infantry forces are in the tower to do a fighting retreat up the stairs, and they can be supported by the Unipegataurs, and whatever else is in the Tower with them. They're being healed by the Healomancer as they hold the line, and the entire time the Dittomancer is doubling, tripling or quadrupling the arrows that are pouring down the stairwell.
That's not even a clever strategy. That's just the most basic, obvious thing I can think of to do - I can think of better strategies and additions to this plan - and I'm perfectly willing to say that Tramennis is probably a lot smarter than I am, and could come up with even better plans. But even that, as a basic start, would slow Gobwin Knob's movement to a crawl while they fought their way up the Tower. And in the meantime, every single Jetstone unit in the rest of Spacerock would be running for the Tower, hitting the Gobwin Knob units in the rear. Even if Wanda, Jack and all the Warlords land alive and conscious in the Atrium, even if a couple of dwagons can join the fight, even if Wanda can raise a massive army of dance-fighting Decrypted... it's still just too big of a force for Gobwin Knob to defeat.

So I agree. Gobwin Knob has a trump card left to play, and I think the smart money is on Parson. Whatever his plan is, we haven't seen the full scope of it just yet, but I'm betting if he joins the attack on Spacerock then he's going to majorly change the situation.

[CelebrenIthil]

I am noting a couple things people have not touched on.

Tram did two important things when he belayed his father's orders. First, he ordered all the troops out of the atrium. Second, he ordered only the tower defenses be used to hit the defenders. I believe that means they are not attacking - only defending.

I don't think GK's forces have been "attacked" according to the rules yet. His moving the forces out of the atrium was his way of reducing casualties and preventing any combat from starting in case any GK forces fall and don't die.

Those that are saying he is in HERP DERP mode are missing just how smart he is being if this ends up being what is happening. At least smart from the perspective he is preventing GK troops from having any way to continue attacking his forces.

He just doesn't know what is coming.

This is what I have been thinking too: did the sole usage of the tower defense spells counts as an attack or just as a defense mechanism?
If the latter is true, it prevents GKs troops from gaining the ability to counterattack on their own, which might throw a wrench in Parson's plans.
After all, the intel that ended relayed to him was that their Yellows were being croaked, but not from what.
Maybe, maybe Parson would be fooled into thinking Jetstone simply engaged their stack using regular means, and thus will get an unpleasant surprise when he finds he can't order his troops fight back. Which, would spice things up imho, because as nice as it is to see Parson's devious plan unfold without an hitch, it's a little bit too easy, and for once, he fights against an opponent I just wish deserves better than get steamrolled mercilessly.
And battle improvisation is always so entertaining!

But all hopes for this theory hang on that particular piece of mechanics I believe we still are in the dark about. (tower defense spells were used in book 1 but the situation isn't the same)

[Lamech]

Not quite sure where that's from... the closest I could find was this page where Vinny suggests punching through the dwagon doughnut. And in that, Vinny's flying under his own power. You're right, of course, more than one unit can ride a dwagon, but we don't know if flight-capable units can ride flying mounts. Not all units can; heavies obviously cannot, so it's not unreasonable to think fliers can't either.
Besides, even if they can, the Hobgobwins are already dropping. Parson gave the announcement that the Hobgobwins were now upgraded, and we know from Parson upgrading himself that it would have been instantaneous. There's simply not enough time for another unit to jump onto a Hobgobwin's dwagon, or vice versa... and even if it did, The Banana Exploit might only work for the dwagon and the heavy in question. A light unit might get bucked off, and promptly fall.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F065.jpg
This page has Jillian talking of mounting three warlords, and since their were only three warlords to mount, and one was Vinny... fly units definitly seem to be able to mount stuff.
Also as I mentioned earlier, only the decrypted Hobgobs are under GK's control. The living ones are under hobgob control, and presumably Parson can't upgrade them. And the hobgobs will be falling slowly regardless, the quick moving archons should totally have time to land on dwagons.

Mostly I got it from here. Jack observes specifically that the Tower can strike any unit in the Airspace, and moving around in the Airspace will not save them. And also, that they can only hover over the walls and buildings, which to me implies that they can't drop down for cover behind a building without actually landing. It doesn't specifically say that you can't hide under the partially-damaged roof of the Atrium, but the combination of "Any unit in the Airspace can be shot down" and "The Airspace is the area over the buildings" was enough to convince me.

Hmm... maybe the lighting bolts can arc a little, but possibly not enough to do a 180. Also not being able to determine the location of the flier should help. Of course maybe they can't get into the atrium. No one knows.

[Selexor]

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F065.jpg
This page has Jillian talking of mounting three warlords, and since their were only three warlords to mount, and one was Vinny... fly units definitly seem to be able to mount stuff.
Also as I mentioned earlier, only the decrypted Hobgobs are under GK's control. The living ones are under hobgob control, and presumably Parson can't upgrade them. And the hobgobs will be falling slowly regardless, the quick moving archons should totally have time to land on dwagons.

Hmmm, I didn't notice that page. Shoulda read it closer!
Weeellllllll... on that page, Jillian is saying they need to rescue the three Warlords, two of whom do need to be mounted, so that could pretty easily be interpreted as just a figure of speech on her part. It's definitely not concrete proof that fliers can ride flying mounts. That said, it is a solid piece of evidence that implies it, so I'll give that point to you. I'm still not convinced that they can, but I'm no longer certain they can't.
However, as for the Hobgobwins... if Parson can't upgrade the allied units, then that still strands them in the Airspace with the other units. If he can upgrade allied units, then all the Hobgobwins are falling now, and the rest of the gang is still just as stranded. And even if the Archons can swoop in and land on the falling dwagons, which we don't know they can do, I have my doubts that you count as "mounted" if your mount is falling out-of-control. Parson's size and weight seem to be what kept him sitting on Banana, but I think that given Banana's struggling, a small light unit would simply be bucked clear and start to fall. And if there was no struggling, the dwagons would just drop like stones and splatter on the ground below. The Banana Exploit is a good strategy, if it works, but I think this is stretching it a bit far. Too many holes in it for my liking.

Hmm... maybe the lighting bolts can arc a little, but possibly not enough to do a 180. Also not being able to determine the location of the flier should help. Of course maybe they can't get into the atrium. No one knows.

I just can't buy that clever maneuvering will give the Gobwin Knob units any serious chance of surviving the barrage from the Tower. If being quick and flighty had a chance of working, then a great strategy from the start would have been, "Fly around in random circles really really fast!"
It's entirely possible that the Ranged Special would cause arrows and spells to curve mid-air like the dwagons' Battlecrap, and home in on their targets. Or maybe Jetstone's attacks could penetrate the already-damaged Atrium roof. Or it could be that there's simply not enough roof left to effectively hide under.
Either way, though, all that I can see boils down to two confirmed facts: One, if you're anywhere in the Airspace, the units and defences of the Tower can shoot you. And Two, a unit cannot fly into another Zone off-turn. I just can't see a way around those two problems, and I'm still not convinced the Archons can use The Banana Exploit, and that leaves me with no option that works for me other than "The Archons are going to get dusted."

[M.A.D]

Clearly, you can attack off-turn, because GK already did. "Target unlead infantry" is an attack order. What is meant by being "unable to attack" off-turn is that you cannot attack units in zones that you do not occupy, something that bombing is an exception to. It should be noted that this is a situational incongruity created by Kingworld -- normally, there's little to no reason to have high-move bombers in airspace over a hex where you have no ground troops on a turn other than your own (and why would you bomb your own hex?) and normally you wouldn't have enemy troops in your hex to attack off-turn unless they came in from another hex on their own turn.

As for Spacerock's ranged attack capabilities, Jack seemed to think they could hold out until they could flee the battlespace using Foolamancy to increase evasion and Decryption to revive screening units. I think we may see that come into play, still, since dropping the Hobgobwins and their mounts already gives GK significant seige and infantry on the ground, which might be enough to take the dungeon and destroy the tower while all attention is otherwise focused on downing the airborne stacks.

Actually, that doesn't count as "attacking off-turn". It only counts as "lightening load" in which your "load" happens to damage the other side. It only applies for dropping objects, since that's how physics work. Infantries cannot attack off-turn even the enemies in the same zone. They are only allowed self-defending, which is after the enemy attacks first.

[zilfallon]

I can't shake the feeling that Goblin Knob isn't going to be in control of Jetstone, whether it's because something happens to Stanley, or because Wanda decides to break alliance and somehow start her own side.

Wanda isn't an idiot. She knows that Parson is bound to Stanley's will. And she knows that if she betrays Stanley, Stanley won't tolerate it and will attack. And this will mean having the perfect warlord as an enemy, which isn't good for her motives, AT ALL. Even if she finds a way to turn Parson, that won't happen. Why should she do it? She can control Stanley to do what she wants anyway, so why risk?

Have you considered that as the caster of that Summon spell, she might be able to take Parson with her (or at least grant him bonuses to attempt to turn) if she leaves GK?

Have you considered that Parson can't stand Stanley, doesn't like to even have to speak to him when he can help it, and therefore is likely to have an extraordinarily low Loyalty (his Duty seems to be very high, of course, but a high Duty doesn't necessarily equal a high Loyalty. He'd likely continue to come up with world-breaking exploits and re-invent Earth curiosities like mount relays for any side that he joined.)

Finally, have you considered that Wanda doesn't have to turn at once? Maybe after she takes Jetstone, she can convince Jillian to come over for a while and bring that Turnamancer with her...


(edited to fix broken quote)

I don't disagree with what you wrote in this post. But you didn't read the last half of my post. WHY would she turn? Does she have a reason to turn? She believes that all arkentools are destined to be together, and those who try to seperate them will utterly fail. She believes that Stanley and her are just tools for that grand cause. And, even ASSUMING she did NOT have such a belief, she still has ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to turn to Stanley, because she can manipulate Stanley to serve her own goals. That was the point i made, and it seems you replied to me, totally ignoring that line.

If she really wanted to turn, she'd have accepted Jillian's offer and destroyed Spacerock without taking such risks. But that's not the case, she don't have a reason to turn, as i explained above.

Also, boegiboe: You say that there's no proof that crossing zones has an effect or not. But, using a mixture of common sense of earth and turn-based strategy games (and Erfworld is such a mix), logic tells us(or at least, tells me) that they won't take extra damage just because they actually crossed a zone.

I have been assuming that the distance fallen has an effect,...

You don't have to assume it, Parson already wrote that the distance HAS an effect

[sonofzeal]

I don't disagree with what you wrote in this post. But you didn't read the last half of my post. WHY would she turn? Does she have a reason to turn? She believes that all arkentools are destined to be together, and those who try to seperate them will utterly fail. She believes that Stanley and her are just tools for that grand cause. And, even ASSUMING she did NOT have such a belief, she still has ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to turn to Stanley, because she can manipulate Stanley to serve her own goals. That was the point i made, and it seems you replied to me, totally ignoring that line.

If she really wanted to turn, she'd have accepted Jillian's offer and destroyed Spacerock without taking such risks. But that's not the case, she don't have a reason to turn, as i explained above.

She would turn, absolutely without question, if Parson asked her to. And Parson would ask her to, if it helped them win.

[zilfallon]

I don't disagree with what you wrote in this post. But you didn't read the last half of my post. WHY would she turn? Does she have a reason to turn? She believes that all arkentools are destined to be together, and those who try to seperate them will utterly fail. She believes that Stanley and her are just tools for that grand cause. And, even ASSUMING she did NOT have such a belief, she still has ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to turn to Stanley, because she can manipulate Stanley to serve her own goals. That was the point i made, and it seems you replied to me, totally ignoring that line.

If she really wanted to turn, she'd have accepted Jillian's offer and destroyed Spacerock without taking such risks. But that's not the case, she don't have a reason to turn, as i explained above.

She would turn, absolutely without question, if Parson asked her to. And Parson would ask her to, if it helped them win.

We weren't talking about short-term side-switching. We were talking about long-term betrayal.

[MattR]

As far as bringing down the tower and the jetstone playing its part in letting them escape dont forget the pack of unipegataurs we could see through the open door. i bet theyre ridable.

[fjolnir]

we in fact know they are ride-able, since the Wanda uncroaked air force had one that she used as a mount to take down ansom and almost got the arkenpliers from him then...

[build6]

Well, dwagons aren't that weak. They aren't being croaked by "mere archers" they are being shot at with tower defences. Also, there are a crapload of archers with a dittomancer behind them.

I dunno, my impression of dragons is that no number of archers would take one down (shouldn't they just bounce off, unless they got lucky and hit a "vulnerable spot"?) - and it's not just this time, there was that gambit in Book 1 where Ansom punched through, and those dwagons got shot full of arrows too

Also, not "necromancer", croakamancer

JS wasn't worried about friendly fire at the battle for the bridge.

I think on the bridge the targets weren't hovering above friendly units, though?

[Malekh]

IF Parson takes Sizemore with him when hes going to SpaceRock (assuming that the unconvetionality of such a feat can be overriden with an order), then they can create an army of crap (or acid, depends on the stuff in the atrium) golems. Instant GK forces in the Atrium with a nice Dirtamancer bonus (and the chief warlord's as well).

[Raza]

They had some kind of elves who could do healomancy. Those elves were natural allies though, and we didn't see any at Spacerock. If you mean other healer units, then i don't know.

Yeah, what did happen to these? Wanda should've decrypted at least a few, but apparently none were taken on the attack, despite their being pronouncedly low on healing scrolls.

[zilfallon]

They had some kind of elves who could do healomancy. Those elves were natural allies though, and we didn't see any at Spacerock. If you mean other healer units, then i don't know.

Yeah, what did happen to these? Wanda should've decrypted at least a few, but apparently none were taken on the attack, despite their being pronouncedly low on healing scrolls.

now that you mention it, where are the elves?