Book 2 – Page 48

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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby zilfallon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:41 pm

Kyrt wrote:There is a limit. Expect the impossible and you have to ask yourself...where to stop? As it is, Parson uncroaked a Volcano. Fine Unorthodox tactics...he created a multi hex dirtamancy trap - but still within the rules. WHat he did there WASN'T impossible....just difficult and requiring the right set of circumstances.

What Parson is doing in JS is something considered impossible by its denizens...off turn movement.


So you're saying that it's totally impossible just because Jetstone says it is? Remember Transylvito warlords' reactions to zombcano? "Multi hex dirtamancy trap? Impossible!"
What he did there was NOT impossible, but his enemies thought it was, just like this situation, as you yourself pointed out.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:41 pm

zilfallon wrote:Tram figured that they'll be dropping crap, so WHY THE HELL did he order all infantry BELOW yellow dwagons? That's a moment of blue screen, no logical explanation putting troops below yellow dwagons known to drop acidic crap. And they know about decryption too...


I gave a theory long ago, that the Tower is packed full of archers and other troops, so given the (somewhat nebulous and undefined) reality of stack limits, the infantry might not FIT there. So if we take that as a possible limit, where else could Tramennis put them? The dungeon perhaps, but that could be even more cramped than the atrium, which is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR QUARTERING TROOPS, after all. Plus for all we know the heavies are stationed in the dungeon, we haven't seen them yet. If not the Tower or Dungeon, that leaves the general city, but then they'd be even more vulnerable, lacking even the siege wall of the Atrium that helped defend at least somewhat.

Again, from everything Tramennis knows, GK attacking the infantry is pointless, as it doesn't degrade the offensive power of Jetstone against flyers at all. His conclusion, reasonable under the circumstances and limited information Tramennis has, is that GK is trying to rattle him and throw him off of his game, psyops that Parson has used before.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:43 pm

Kyrt wrote:You are saying Tram is dumb because he isn't expecting Parson to whisk the moon from its orbit and smash it into the city; he's dumb because he isn't preparing for the assault where Parson sinks the land beneath the waves. You say he should be preparing for the impossible....when he can't.
No, I don't say any of that. (and you screwed up the quotes in your post, making for even more "I didn't say that") You are saying that I'm saying these things, but that doesn't make them so. Impossible has a definition, look it up. I've covered this ground before, I don't need to do so again just because you decided to put different words in my mouth.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby zilfallon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:50 pm

Again, from everything Tramennis knows, GK attacking the infantry is pointless, as it doesn't degrade the offensive power of Jetstone against flyers at all. His conclusion, reasonable under the circumstances and limited information Tramennis has, is that GK is trying to rattle him and throw him off of his game, psyops that Parson has used before.


They know Wanda has 'Pliers. Even a mid-rate leader should be able to say "hmm, they'll bomb our troops and will then decrypt, we are in a bad situation already so we shouldn't give any unnecessary casualties." And I'm assuming that Tram isn't just a warlord. That's the point of view i'm talking from. If you think he's just a normal warlord, then there is no need for you to reply to my posts, because i'm writing assuming he's a good warlord.

As has been raised before, Parson is known to be an innovative thinker and he might not be as adamant as Stanley would be. He's not going to know until he interacts with Parson! And again, the deal outlined by Tramennis was an opening offer. Maybe there was some compromise that would have satisfied both parties. Heck, I'm not convinced that Parson WOULDN'T have been interested in a good faith negotiation, but for the fact that he came up wit


Parson is known to be an innovative thinker and not as fanatic as Stanley and Wanda? Does Tram know it? Does even Charlie know about Parson's beliefs? Why should Tram assume that Parson isn't a fanatic toolist?

Well anyway, this is going nowhere, since you are just replying to me using the first sentences you wrote. And that's impossible. I started writing these to reply to those first posts, but you're just repeating yourselves and not replying to the signs which point "tram holds the idiot ball", writing same thing over and over again and eventually making me repeat myself 3 times. So unless you have a new point to share, please don't be offended if I don't reply, and don't think that i'm ignoring you, because if you continue repeating yourselves, then there is no need for me to do the same.

Kyrt wrote:You are saying Tram is dumb because he isn't expecting Parson to whisk the moon from its orbit and smash it into the city; he's dumb because he isn't preparing for the assault where Parson sinks the land beneath the waves. You say he should be preparing for the impossible....when he can't.


I'm curious how you managed to get this meaning from that post :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:51 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:His conclusion, reasonable under the circumstances and limited information Tramennis has, is that GK is trying to rattle him and throw him off of his game, psyops that Parson has used before.
Building no doubt off of your prior claim:
Ansan Gotti wrote:Parson is just acting out and trying to rattle him (as Charlie's dossier probably indicated, given the extensive psyops he conducted against RCC I)
I should have addressed this before. What "extensive psyops" are you referring to? Parson planned some, he really wanted to. But what really happened? A single call to Ansom, that's what. And that single call was cut short by Stanley breaking in. So no, Charlie's dossier didn't paint Parson as a master of psycological warfare, because it couldn't have. It didn't happen.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Trotsky » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:56 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:Maybe there was some compromise that would have satisfied both parties. Heck, I'm not convinced that Parson WOULDN'T have been interested in a good faith negotiation, but for the fact that he came up with the exploit!


Heck, I'm not sure Parson would have been against good faith negotiation even with the exploit in mind, except for the fact the he believes they are impossible (panel 6).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:59 pm

zilfallon wrote:They know Wanda has 'Pliers. Even a mid-rate leader should be able to say "hmm, they'll bomb our troops and will then decrypt, we are in a bad situation already so we shouldn't give any unnecessary casualties." And I'm assuming that Tram isn't just a warlord. That's the point of view i'm talking from. If you think he's just a normal warlord, then there is no need for you to reply to my posts, because i'm writing assuming he's a good warlord.


Since attacks cannot cross zone boundaries off-turn, most people have been assuming that casters cannot cast spells across zone boundaries, and that Wanda cannot decrypt across zone boundaries, either.

I have explained my theory as to why the infantry is better in the Atrium than in the general city, it may not be correct but it does offer an explanation that I don't see you attempting to rebut.

Parson is known to be an innovative thinker


Absolutely.

and not as fanatic as Stanley and Wanda? Does Tram know it?


No, and that is why I said "might." Innovative thinkers are generally considered to be more open-minded than zealots, though, so I don't think it's a totally unreasonable assumption.

Does even Charlie know about Parson's beliefs? Why should Tram assume that Parson isn't a fanatic toolist?


Because they've had numerous eyebook chats that specifically indicate Parson takes a rather irreverant view of Toolism.

Well anyway, this is going nowhere, since you are just replying to me using the first sentences you wrote. And that's impossible. I started writing these to reply to those first posts, but you're just repeating yourselves and not replying to the signs which point "tram holds the idiot ball", writing same thing over and over again and eventually making me repeat myself 3 times. So unless you have a new point to share, please don't be offended if I don't reply, and don't think that i'm ignoring you, because if you continue repeating yourselves, then there is no need for me to do the same.


I believe I have responded to everything you've raised and pointed out where there are weaknesses in your position, but you are of course free to disengage from this discussion whenever you choose.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Trotsky » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:01 pm

zilfallon wrote:They know Wanda has 'Pliers. Even a mid-rate leader should be able to say "hmm, they'll bomb our troops and will then decrypt...


You know, Wanda has yet to decrypt anything during combat, though it is implied by Jack's "catch us as we fall" line.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:02 pm

trotsky wrote:Heck, I'm not sure Parson would have been against good faith negotiation even with the exploit in mind, except for the fact the he believes they are impossible (panel 6).


That's a good catch. That said, if Tramennis reached out and opened with an offer of, let's say for the sake of argument alone, "Hey, you can keep everything, let's just have the non-aggression pact with a billion schmucker penalty," are you confident Parson would immediately dismiss it?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:04 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:We are moving into the realm of difference of opinion here, but I think you're simply expecting far too much of Tramennis or any Erfer to be able to connect the dots such that they discern a plan that goes against the most fundamental assumptions of their worldview. In a turn-based world, off-turn tactics are going to be opaque. Especially if Erfers are of limited initiative, imagination and innovation as has been theorized earlier by several.
Ok, I can live with this. Despite your earlier insistence that Tram is "a witty conversationalist, a canny thinker, and a master diplomat", you are now adopting someone else's theory that "Erfers are of limited initiative, imagination and innovation." I appreciate it when a person can't make their own points appear credible and falls back to someone else's points instead. :twisted:

So here we have our agreement: Tram is only thought to be smart because he is the brightest of the lot of dullards living on Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:04 pm

zilfallon wrote:So you're saying that it's totally impossible just because Jetstone says it is?


It was once considered impossible to fly.

As it is...yes. Off zone movement is impossible. A Multi-hex dirtamancy trap isn't - thats simply unbelievable. What Parson is done is find a loophole in the laws of Erfworld physics. You are suggesting the Tram should, without all the experimentation Parson has done, be able to know at a glance that off turn movement is possible because Parson can make the impossible possible and that his failure to prepare for this turn of events means he is stupid.

As it is, the simple fact is Tram has deliberately limited his near term option by not shooting down GK in favour of a chance to parley, to negotiate, to come to some level of agreement knowing that the can, at any time, wipe GKs forces off the map.

As pointed out...he can wipe the GK force out. He doesn't know who'll win the resulting war and his side, if not his coalition, is already in trouble. Should he have done already? Yes. That would be acting out of character though and it would be removing the possibility of a negotiated peace. Which he wants.

Since he does want to parley, his option to wipe out the GK force is gone, temporarily at least.

Given that...what are his options to prepare for Parsons assault? Non existent. He lost when Stately and JS decided to go for parley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:07 pm

zilfallon wrote:They know Wanda has 'Pliers. Even a mid-rate leader should be able to say "hmm, they'll bomb our troops and will then decrypt, we are in a bad situation already so we shouldn't give any unnecessary casualties."


IIRC, Wanda can't cast across zones off turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:09 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
trotsky wrote:Heck, I'm not sure Parson would have been against good faith negotiation even with the exploit in mind, except for the fact the he believes they are impossible (panel 6).

That's a good catch. That said, if Tramennis reached out and opened with an offer of, let's say for the sake of argument alone, "Hey, you can keep everything, let's just have the non-aggression pact with a billion schmucker penalty," are you confident Parson would immediately dismiss it?
Of course not! Parson would do exactly what he is doing right now. Which is, in case you missed it, planning to "turn the tables" (thanks, Jack!) while in the midst of a parlay.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:11 pm

Oberon wrote:Ok, I can live with this. Despite your earlier insistence that Tram is "a witty conversationalist, a canny thinker, and a master diplomat", you are now adopting someone else's theory that "Erfers are of limited initiative, imagination and innovation." I appreciate it when a person can't make their own points appear credible and falls back to someone else's points instead. :twisted:

So here we have our agreement: Tram is only thought to be smart because he is the brightest of the lot of dullards living on Erfworld.


Nice bait, but I will decline to take offense. ;) Especially since I'm one of the theorists; I just can't claim exclusive ownership over the theory. In an extremely hierarchical world where free and independent thought is exceedingly limited (indeed, the free will of only rulers, effectively, has been explicitly discussed in the text), innovation is going to be few and far between. And in a world of constant war (since warfare tends to increase innovation), the tendency against innovation would seem to be even stronger, based on the uproar caused by what Parson has engineered in just a few engagements.

In essence, however, yes: I think Tramennis is probably the brightest of a group of relatively incurious thinkers. The philosopher-king of FAQ may have been another, and the reason why FAQ is supplying so many pivotal characters and key thinkers does not seem to be a coincidence, IMO.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:14 pm

Oberon wrote:Of course not! Parson would do exactly what he is doing right now. Which is, in case you missed it, planning to "turn the tables" (thanks, Jack!) while in the midst of a parlay.


As I indicated, I am speaking hypothetically, for the sake of argument, regarding the narrow issue of whether Parson would refuse to consider any parley with Jetstone, ever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:24 pm

They know Wanda has 'Pliers. Even a mid-rate leader should be able to say "hmm, they'll bomb our troops and will then decrypt, we are in a bad situation already so we shouldn't give any unnecessary casualties." And I'm assuming that Tram isn't just a warlord. That's the point of view i'm talking from. If you think he's just a normal warlord, then there is no need for you to reply to my posts, because i'm writing assuming he's a good warlord.
If Wanda could decrypt across zones she likely would have simply croaked the purples and reds over the tower, decrpyted them and destroyed the tower. Since she hasn't done so it seems very likely that either a) GK is so sure of its victory that having a few dwagons use their first life to win sooner isn't worth it or b) no decrypting across zones. And under "a" Jetstone loses so planning for it is rather pointless.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Trotsky » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:34 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Oberon wrote:Of course not! Parson would do exactly what he is doing right now. Which is, in case you missed it, planning to "turn the tables" (thanks, Jack!) while in the midst of a parlay.


As I indicated, I am speaking hypothetically, for the sake of argument, regarding the narrow issue of whether Parson would refuse to consider any parley with Jetstone, ever.


I think he would. Parson is not convinced that this plan is going to work. GK really doesn't care if Jetstone gets destroyed or not, they want to end the RCCII and an alliance with Jetstone, the side that is pulling it together, would probably accomplish that. I definitely think Parson would trade "most of you will croak anyways" for getting out of dodge in tact. I do not think he would accept the condition of Wanda being croaked, but I feel there was a pretty good chance of him coming to a reasonable compromise with Jetstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby zilfallon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:37 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Parson is known to be an innovative thinker


Absolutely.

and not as fanatic as Stanley and Wanda? Does Tram know it?


No, and that is why I said "might." Innovative thinkers are generally considered to be more open-minded than zealots, though, so I don't think it's a totally unreasonable assumption.


You totally ruined my post :D The way you quoted it, makes it seem like an entirely different post. I didn't say that Parson is known to be an innovative thinker. My sentence:

zilfallon wrote:Parson is known to be an innovative thinker and not as fanatic as Stanley and Wanda? Does Tram know it? Does even Charlie know about it?


Meaning changes if you seperate "parson is.........thinker" part. I was quoting you, not expressing my opinion. You said that Parson is known to be an innovative thinker, and I asked if Tram really knew about it.

Ansan Gotti wrote:Because they've had numerous eyebook chats that specifically indicate Parson takes a rather irreverant view of Toolism.


Then could you link them please? I've searched for those but i could only find was chapters which said how Charlie didn't care about Toolism.

Ansan Gotti wrote:I believe I have responded to everything you've raised and pointed out where there are weaknesses in your position, but you are of course free to disengage from this discussion whenever you choose.


You have replied to most i've posted in this last post. Everything before were clones of each other. Maybe i should have tried to disengage a few pages ago so people implied that i'm acting like a coward and tried writing different things :)

And I still don't understand why you believe an alliance is possible with GK from Tram's point of view. Sure, Tram may not know much about Parson, but it's the ruler that matters. Not every ruler is like Slately and leaves everything to Chief Warlord. It would be a mistake for Jetstone to assume that, and they are aware of it so i don't see them making such an assumption. Stanley the "worm" is in charge, and he wants royalty gone. Tram's taking a huge risk if he's assuming that this Lord Hamster is just different than his ruler. As I said before (as a reply to a different question, but this needs the same line too), Parson refused peace even when the factions existence and his life was endangered.

I don't know if Parson is known to be an innovative thinker in Jetstone, but I'm sure he's known as someone who fights to the end. Thoughts?

Lamech wrote:If Wanda could decrypt across zones she likely would have simply croaked the purples and reds over the tower, decrpyted them and destroyed the tower. Since she hasn't done so it seems very likely that either a) GK is so sure of its victory that having a few dwagons use their first life to win sooner isn't worth it or b) no decrypting across zones. And under "a" Jetstone loses so planning for it is rather pointless.


Hmm, sounds good. I thought it was possible because of Jack's words:

"catch us as we fall" So what does it mean? Decrypt while falling?

Trotsky wrote:I do not think he would accept the condition of Wanda being croaked, but I feel there was a pretty good chance of him coming to a reasonable compromise with Jetstone.


True but there's Stanley...Stanley will really HATE this decision and this might be problematic for Parson (who knows? maybe Stanley will just disband him in a temper tantrum), which is why I think Parson won't go for peace. But if Stanley doesn't disband Parson instantly, i think they can convince him to a temporary peace. But Stanley will attack Jetstone, sooner or later. I just can't imagine him being friendly with royals who claim titanic mandate. That would be totally out of character, more than Tram skipping diplomacy is.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Sieggy » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:46 pm

A lot of this reminds me of Ron White's comedy act, when he remarks about how all the people who watch the Texas Hold'em tourneys on TV, and think it's an easy game and that they could make a fortune at it . . . until they sit down at the table and suddenly realize there's no camera . . . the one that shows them what the other guy's cards are. We're seeing this story with unrolling omniscience. Trem & Parson are just making it up as they go long (to paraphrase Indiana Jones).

Parson has been told that parley is simply a formality, a ceremony the immediately precedes the slaughter. So he's making what use of the time he has to him to set his plan in motion. And he knows that time is short - at any moment, the fire order can be given. So he's proceeding apace. He has absolutely no idea that Trem is serious about bargaining in good faith, and in fact is really unaware of Trem's identity, much less his capabilities. As far as he's concerned, he's the CWL who wiped out his field units, and is about to wipe out his airborne units. He has an exploit which he REALLY hopes will work, but at this point, he has no guarantee that it will. Neither do we, for that matter. It's a cwapshoot. Parson is literally under the gun, and merely hopes to get everything he needs going before the cwapstorm hits.

Trem knows he's holding all the cards. It's his turn, GK is trapped, and he thought (however incorrectly) that the roof of the Atrium afforded protection to the troops massed below. Yellow Dwagon cwap, from what we've seen thus far, is primarily an anti-personnel weapon. He was concerned about being cwapped on when he entered the city. One normally doesn't worry about anti-personnel weapons being used on structures. He thinks that he has all the time in the world (or at least the turn will last as long as he needs it to), and as such, he's prepared to negotiate until such time as they have reached some kind of agreement or it's apparent that an attack is inevitable.

He knows that Parson is a lateral thinker, which is why Trem finds him so fascinating. But Trem is a product of his world, and his society. The idea that an enemy can do more than play head games and be a nuisance when it's not their turn is alien to him. He can't imagine what Parson could do simply because he CAN'T imagine what Parson could do. He's not an idiot, he just has no experience thinking about WHY things are the way they are. To him (and everyone else in Erfworld) things are the way they are because that's the way the Titans made them. End of story. And right now, as far as he's concerned, Parson is being a big party pooper. He's acting out, because he's impotent, helpless, and being petulant.

Also bear in mind that since the day started, he's faced one decrypted brother, been Bubble popped, immobilized and faced his doom, seen his brother captured, slain, and decrypted (and turned, to boot), miraculously rescued, seen the enemy which was waiting to pick their bones clean after the battle slaughtered, had one brother kidnapped by their ally who abandoned them in their hour of need, learned that Charley was up to . . . SOMETHING, croaked all of the GK field units, experienced yet ANOTHER series of revelations from Charley (whom he has even less reason to trust now), and is now trying to cut a deal with their enemy. I can understand why maybe he's not thinking as many steps ahead as he normally would. There simply hasn't been time to really sit down and think about possibilities.

However, once the GKAF begins it's dive into the Atrium, I suspect that's when Trem will realize that everything is not just fine in Glockamorrah, and hostilities will start to commencin'. Ossomer, unfortunately, will most likely be the first casualty. And with Ossomer dead, I think that will be Parson's signal to head out to JS, as they'll have no WL bonus whatsoever at that point, and while he ain't great, he's better than nothing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby CelebrenIthil » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:47 pm

zilfallon wrote:And I still don't understand why you believe an alliance is possible with GK from Tram's point of view.


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...

In any case, I do believe Trem is getting into trouble, but mostly, it's not because he is a drooling dimwit with an over expansive pride like some people like to paint him, but simply because he is outclassed. Parson is more innovative, devious and clever than about the rest of the cast combined. Even the most lateral-thinking or open-minded and curious erfworlders we've seen so far like Jack, Sizemore or Charlie can only understand what's happening in Parson's wake, and he's sharing his plans with them (well, with the later is more getting spied on it seems, heheh. But he did discuss things with him too).
Just imagine what it is for his enemies!

Someone said something akin to "Trem is not clever, he's only the less moronic of a bunch of morons"... Well, in a sense, yes, that's about it. I think you are judging the Erfworlders very harshly, considered how their world works and how it's certain knowledge doesn't get shared much (outside the MK) and the majority of people are expandable cannon fodder that already pop with about all the knowledge they need to function... but yes, that doesn't make it easy for the inhabitants of this world to be great, free-thinking minds.

It's no surprise really that nobody sees Parson coming.
Also, he's literally thinking like a gamer. Erfworld physics are much easier for him to question, analyze critically and bypass, they are not an immutable force of his universe like for the others.

Trammenis has a lot of potential I believe, but he's weighed down by all the mindsets of his ancestors and peers since forever, just like people on Earth were (and still are) about making fire, the shape of the Earth, flying or quantum physics before really great minds opened the way. (usually building on the work and thoughts of other great minds before them).

I think maybe when the battle turns really bad ( I say "when" because if I remember well, it was about predicted by the Predictamancer in the MK things would be a mess), maybe we'll see him get a chance to shine. Maybe, like Jack and co, he'll learn from watching Parson go and innovate.

Let's just watch things unfold! :)
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