Book 2 – Page 48

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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Foolamancer » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:36 pm

zilfallon wrote:They know Wanda has 'Pliers. Even a mid-rate leader should be able to say "hmm, they'll bomb our troops and will then decrypt, we are in a bad situation already so we shouldn't give any unnecessary casualties."


I'm sorry, but this is demonstrably untrue, even in our own world.

Trammenis isn't a bad leader. But he's up against tactics that no one, ever, in the history of Erfworld, has ever even thought about, let alone fielded. Many brilliant military tacticians have fallen prey to situations like this. The Battle of Agincourt is one such example.

The French army in the Battle of Agincourt was confident of victory, as it consisted largely of mounted knights, which were considered the most deadly units available at the time. The English forces consisted mainly of longbowmen, which were considered weak. Guess which side won?

The plain fact is that most military tacticians are extremely good at thinking inside the box, but often lack the capability to think outside it. They are able to win their battles because the tactics they employ are tried and true: the rolling advance, divide and conquer, guerilla warfare. When someone comes up with a genuinely new tactic, it is often employed to absolutely devastating effect because absolutely no one saw it coming. For example, the tactic which we know as blitzkrieg seems trivially obvious today, but during the opening months of World War Two, it was considered new and ingenious, and allowed Germany to claim victory after victory with few losses.

Trammenis hasn't considered the possibility of Wanda Decrypting the infantry in the Atrium because, up until this point, absolutely no one has attempted to move from air to ground through exploitation of the falling mechanic. He has absolutely no way to see it coming. It's never been done before. It's highly doubtful whether the other sides in Erfworld even known about The Banana Exploit. They couldn't even fathom a plan which allows units to move from the airspace to the Atrium off-turn. It has never even been considered, let alone done. Trammenis could be one of the greatest Warlords to ever live, and it's doubtful that he would see it coming.

He's not holding the idiot ball. He's just not omniscient.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:41 pm

zilfallon wrote:You totally ruined my post :D The way you quoted it, makes it seem like an entirely different post. I didn't say that Parson is known to be an innovative thinker. My sentence:

zilfallon wrote:Parson is known to be an innovative thinker and not as fanatic as Stanley and Wanda? Does Tram know it? Does even Charlie know about it?


Meaning changes if you seperate "parson is.........thinker" part. I was quoting you, not expressing my opinion. You said that Parson is known to be an innovative thinker, and I asked if Tram really knew about it.


Sorry, didn't mean to change your meaning and I honestly don't think I did, because the answer is that Parson is definitely known to be an innovative thinker by Tramennis, that was what the dossier from Charlie was all about. I believe the "not as fanatic" part is necessarily a separate concept, even though you wrote it together. And that's where I said it's potentially implied as a "might" but that it is not definitive.

Then could you link them please? I've searched for those but i could only find was chapters which said how Charlie didn't care about Toolism.


Sure, here is an example, from one of my favorite text updates ever:

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png

Parson implies pretty heavily to Charlie that Parson is distinct from Ansom and his Toolism. Comments such as "Toolism or whatever you'd call it" and "Can't let something like that stop the Good News, brother!" come across as somewhat snide and irreverent. I think Charlie, given his previous comprehension of Parson's pop culture references and also subtle chat nuances, would be able to figure out that perhaps he's not as on board with Toolism as others. Whether Charlie conveyed that in the dossier, however, is a different story.

Quick note to Sieggy: fantastic summation!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Foolamancer » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:43 pm

Oberon wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:We are moving into the realm of difference of opinion here, but I think you're simply expecting far too much of Tramennis or any Erfer to be able to connect the dots such that they discern a plan that goes against the most fundamental assumptions of their worldview. In a turn-based world, off-turn tactics are going to be opaque. Especially if Erfers are of limited initiative, imagination and innovation as has been theorized earlier by several.
Ok, I can live with this. Despite your earlier insistence that Tram is "a witty conversationalist, a canny thinker, and a master diplomat", you are now adopting someone else's theory that "Erfers are of limited initiative, imagination and innovation." I appreciate it when a person can't make their own points appear credible and falls back to someone else's points instead. :twisted:

So here we have our agreement: Tram is only thought to be smart because he is the brightest of the lot of dullards living on Erfworld.


Well, yes. But this is roughly equivalent to saying that "Napoleon is only thought to be smart because he is the brightest of the lot of dullards living in Europe".

Trammenis is probably a brilliant Warlord as well as a cunning diplomat. But he is not omniscient, and even the greatest of military tacticians rarely create anything entirely new. Parson's strength is that he can, and does, create entirely new tactics, strategies, and even escape clauses from the known laws of physics on a regular basis.

Trammenis is smart. "Smart" does not mean "can predict that someone is about to do something which not only has never been done before but is often considered entirely impossible".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Sieggy » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:04 pm

I still have to wonder what Stanley is going to do when he gets back to the situation room and no one's there . . . and what he's likely to do to screw things up. (I have faith in Stanley being a real Tool) Seriously, especially if Maggie and Sizemore decide to accompany Parson through the Wabbit hole, and Stanley discovers that HE'S BEEN LEFT ALL ALONE!!!! Watching a Tool melt down ought to be amusing . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:10 pm

Another good point, Sieggy. Let's hope that's a gigantic sandwich he's eating.

Man, I cannot WAIT for the Klog to pop today.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:10 pm

Fort Knox can't prepare for teleporters, sure. But they can prepare for quick snatch and grabs, say by high tech ninjas with directional limpet mines, compact plasma torches, sensor blinding gadgets, and so forth. Hence, without asking how, they can conceive of an intruder who somehow makes it to the stacks without being detected.

I really have nothing to add about the story, i'm just waiting for the next update.

Seperate from anything else, the contined temperature of the discussion gives me two observatons

1. Web Monkey Death Match has now moved to the top of my ifiwinthelottery list.

2. I read a lot of webcomics. For most of them, the discussion of a single episode rarely makes more than one page and when more than a week passes between updates, discussion usually peters out. The fact that things are diiferent here is a sign of creative genius-- in spite of ourselves we are made to care deeply about everything that goes on in Rob's head.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby CelebrenIthil » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:17 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:2. I read a lot of webcomics. For most of them, the discussion of a single episode rarely makes more than one page and when more than a week passes between updates, discussion usually peters out. The fact that things are diiferent here is a sign of creative genius-- in spite of ourselves we are made to care deeply about everything that goes on in Rob's head.


I believe I'm reading a lot of webcomics too, from the big popular stuff to more obscure/indie things.
My observation brings about the same conclusion. Erfworld sparks intense interest in it's reader base on about every page. The only webcomic (I hesitate on "webcomic" to describe it tough) I follow that sparks more discussion/debates/thories than Erfworld - that I know of- is Homestuck/MS Paint Adventures but the difference in scale of both the works and the readership is too immense to compare them but proportionally.

Sign of a job well done to me! 8-)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:20 pm

Well, OOTS has a ton of comments and wacky theories, too... but it's also one of the juggernauts out there, in terms of readership.

Is there a (semi-statistical, as opposed to users clicking for popularity) list of most popular webcomics out there?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:38 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:Nice bait, but I will decline to take offense. ;) .
I'm glad. I was really just teasing the hell out of you. :lol:
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:48 pm

zilfallon wrote:Tram believes Jetstone is screwed in long term, but Parson himself said that they're screwed if Wanda dies.


The point of negotiation is that the outcomes "Jetstone screwed" and "GK screwed" are not mutually exclusive.

zilfallon wrote:Tram figured that they'll be dropping crap, so WHY THE HELL did he order all infantry BELOW yellow dwagons? That's a moment of blue screen, no logical explanation putting troops below yellow dwagons known to drop acidic crap. And they know about decryption too...


Someone else already offered a logical explanation: Jetstone can't pay their upkeep and it would hurt morale to disband them. Here's another: the Dungeon probably can't hold all the units that were in the Atrium, and units sent down there would have complained about being kept out of the action (see Duke Lacrosse and original Wrigley).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:02 pm

Cheers, Oberon. :) I think this is the first time in several discussions that we have been able to reach some semblance of mutual understanding, so I will rate that as progress. ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:10 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:Well, OOTS has a ton of comments and wacky theories, too... but it's also one of the juggernauts out there, in terms of readership.

Is there a (semi-statistical, as opposed to users clicking for popularity) list of most popular webcomics out there?


This is a job for XKCD!

Or maybe Language Log.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Elhoim » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:10 am

Sorry if this has been asked before, but in the second panel the hobgoblin says "Target unled infantry!"... Aren't they making the attack intentional and thus impossible to make? I'm probably missing something obvious here, so help me out if you can :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby HailGreen28 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:00 pm

Elhoim wrote:Sorry if this has been asked before, but in the second panel the hobgoblin says "Target unled infantry!"... Aren't they making the attack intentional and thus impossible to make? I'm probably missing something obvious here, so help me out if you can :)
Evidently, yellow dwagons CAN take "potshots" at units below them in other zones. As Tram belatedly worried after he had walked under them earlier. Perhaps thus potshotting under normal circumstances has no accuracy. Hence why Wanda didn't take the opportunity to take out the enemy CW directly under her, and why Tram wasn't too worried about being able to evacuate the Atrium before suffering heavy casualties.
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