Book 2 – Page 49

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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby ftl » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:45 pm

It is not possible to present the position that Tram thought that he had all the time in the world. Well, it is possible, there is just no support for that position. Tram himself discussed with his King about the potential for off-turn GK attacks on Jetstone property. It is not "ONLY DUE TO [MY] READER'S VIEWPOINT" that I know this to be fact, Tram told me so himself.


Yes, it is possible.

GK ALREADY had enough time to do any attacks they wanted to do. They, obviously, didn't want to attack, for whatever reason. Tram sees this.

He knows that
1) GK's options are extremely limited. They can do a few useless attacks, and that's it.
2) Sitting in airspace for hours on end, they haven't tried to do their few useless attacks.

I think it's a logical conclusion that THERE'S NO REASON TO RUSH. There's little GK can do, and what little they can do, they've had plenty of opportunity to do already if they wanted, and they didn't. Tram was quite justified in thinking that he could have his pleasant chat with his brother.


What is Parson watching in panel 4 here? And what's that happening in panel 1?


Looks like he's watching the battlefield, not the conversation. Look at the Archon's viewpoint - it's showing him all the dwagons, and then he sees Wanda and Jack fall. He's not actually paying attention to Ossomer, I think. He might be, we don't know exactly, but it isn't focused on in that update.

CorrTerek wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:All he has to do is jump off. I bet that would be an interesting end to the parley with Tram. "Excuse me brother, but... AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!"


24 pages of arguing and nitpicking and rehashing old, old, old arguments and this is still the best thing to come out of this thread.


Agreed!!!!

Well, I'm also a big fan of...:

Also, as has been stated, jabbering with Ossomer did not "give" Parson time to bomb the atrium. He waited to bomb the atrium until the parley started. He could have done that at any point, but didn't. He wanted to wait until JS was poised to shoot down the yellows in order to cause confusion when every color dwagon started falling.


Wow, how have I not seen this reasoning before?

Agree entirely.
1) Parson had plenty of time to bomb the atrium - he chose to do it at the start of parley. Why? Tram's choice of what to say during that parley turned out to be irrelevant anyway. It's not that Tram had to talk quickly to get a chance to talk before Parson got a chance to attack... Parson already planned the fact that the attack would happen at the start of the parley in advance. But as to why:
2) I love your point about using Jetstone's own air defenses as cover for what's happening. I didn't realize that before. THAT'S why Parson wanted to wait until parley! It gives him that one extra moment of confusion, where Jetstone is left wondering how their air defenses croaked all those dwagons.

It's like a magic trick here on earth. Lots of magic tricks manipulate the audience's attention - if you're focusing on the magician's right hand because it's active, you won't notice his left hand switching around cards or something.

Same here - Parson deliberately got Jetstone to target his dwagons when he's ready to put his plan into action, so they don't realize anything out of the ordinary is happening for a bit of extra time. Thank you for pointing that out explicitly.

...actually, if that's the case, Tram MAY yet still figure something out faster than Parson intended - since he targeted only the Yellows, but all the dwagons died. Parson MAY have been expecting that ALL his dwagons would be targeted and that Jetstone wouldn't realize anything is amiss until a bit later. Maybe. Or maybe that doesn't matter. But even if it does, Tram has to, you know, actually DO something with this deduction for it to give him any brownie points.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby OneHugeTuck » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:26 pm

Jeserf H. Chwist!

You people are still talking about this?

I challenge you to say something different than the same things you've been rehashing the last 24 pages.



(Mostly I just wanted to yell 'Jeserf H. Chwist'.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Squishalot » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:16 am

@ Oberon and people arguing over whether Jetstone knows the truth about Kingworld:

Tramennis credits Charlie's help for Kingworld. But that can be for one of two reasons:

a) Charlie assisted with the bi/trimancer link (not necessarily known to Jetstone); and/or
b) Charlie provided Jillian's strike force (known to Jetstone).

Tram's first knowledge of Charlie's involvement came when Jillian and Haggar attacked Ansom's force at the bridge.

It is a plausible scenario that Tram doesn't know that Kingworld required a multi-caster link, and that his thanks to Charlie are actually due to the fact that he backed Jillian into the fight, along with her Turnamancer.

Edit: Also note - his conversation with Charlie suggests that he has no knowledge of Charlie's involvement with Kingworld, and only his strong-arm tactics over Haggar.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby GaryThunder » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:20 am

Also, Oberon needs to de-harsh his troll-tastic inflammatory and insulting argumentative style. It's not helping his case.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ditto » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:07 am

The anticipated damage the yellows have done is breaking a glass ceiling. That's pretty minor, in terms of 'oh gee is my castle still standing'.

If you check Parson in the portal room from Page 48, during the parley, Maggie is giving him all the updates. He is plainly NOT watching Archon TV until Page 49.

Nobody is attributing Tram's clever deduction abilities when folks say 'Tram figured out Charlie was in on the Vanna casting!'. If you think Tram's evidence is insufficient, that's your prerogative, but Tram said HIMSELF plainly in the text, for whatever reason, that Charlie was involved with Vanna.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Lamech » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:28 am

I do want to say one thing about Tram "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king."

I mean his two brothers? Ansom idea of diplomacy is join or die. Ossomer easily could have asked for a "test alliance" with a short-term objective, say stoping Translovito from falling to carpool and co.; might not of worked, and maybe not that but he could have tried something more than "turn back". The Slately's idea was to waste the parley insulting the side who was posied to destroy you in the long run. I think Tram is a better diplomat than those three, just still not a very good one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:19 am

Ditto wrote:The anticipated damage the yellows have done is breaking a glass ceiling. That's pretty minor, in terms of 'oh gee is my castle still standing'.

If you check Parson in the portal room from Page 48, during the parley, Maggie is giving him all the updates. He is plainly NOT watching Archon TV until Page 49.

Nobody is attributing Tram's clever deduction abilities when folks say 'Tram figured out Charlie was in on the Vanna casting!'. If you think Tram's evidence is insufficient, that's your prerogative, but Tram said HIMSELF plainly in the text, for whatever reason, that Charlie was involved with Vanna.


Charlie spoke directly to Slately while Vanna was in the castle with him. http://www.erfworld.com/2010/02/book-2-%e2%80%93-text-updates-014/
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:50 am

Oberon wrote:What is Parson watching in panel 4 here? And what's that happening in panel 1?



Well...that would be ArchonVISION broadcast of the initial stages of the attack. It would not appear to be Parson listening in on the parley. Indeed, Parson is so interested in the parley...he has Maggie conveying orders and simply telling Ossomer to stall. Face it...Parson has more important things to do than pay attention to a parley he has no interest in. He's not listening because its meaningless. Nor does it appear Tram is expecting him to be listening.

So...why would Tram expect Parson to be listening? As Warlord, Ossomer probably has enough authority to agree to most deals.

BS. Tram knows that some fancy Turnamancy ended the GK turn. And that the Turnamancer was with Jillian. And that some disembodied voice slapped his father down when he attempted to speak to said Turnamancer who arrived with Jillian.


And we, the reader, know he credits Charlie with that. What we don't know is who told him. He spoken with two people who knew directly about the link and one who could given him some clues if he knew about their effects.

You appear to be disregarding the evidence here. Its possible he doesn't know...but the interpretation that "Charlie saved us" means exactly what he is saying seems to be the most reasonable and likely reading. Meanwhile, you've again ignored that quotation from Tram. If it isn't to be taken that Tram knows about the link...from whatever source...then what else does it mean? That Charlie should be thanked because hes providing the money to pay for Jillian to hire Vanna? Thats a very roundabout case for thanking someone.

You have decided that Tram knows that this is a tri-mancer link, without evidence.


As I said, I think the fact Tram, with his own words, credits Charlie with saving them all with that fancy turnamancy is a good indication hes aware of what happened. Hes not crediting Jillian or Vanna. He's crediting Charlie. Charlie as paymaster? Not directly involved? Why thank him? Charlie provided a scroll? Perhaps. But Vanna didn't use one.

Yeah, way to cherry pick and straw man. Please do recall that Vanna was standing alone. And very much not standing linked to two other casters. So, yeah, impossible.


And Misty was linked when Parson spoke to her. Alone. That's why it was so dangerous. What's the problem then with Vanna standing alone? Is it only Lookamancers who can operate physically independent? No...a better argument from your pov would be to question where the Thinkamancer was...whether Thinkamancers need to be in the same hex or whether that was due to the Arkendish.

Lamech wrote:But it wasn't her turn and she was in the tower zone not the airspace.


Off turn spellcasting is possible. And she was in the Spacerock hex.

True the outcome could be changed, if GK is convinced not to do it. But convincing GK not to crush you will be really hard if you killed their precious Wanda, and are holding the pliers. And negotiating a cease-fire will be really easy if you offer to let Wanda go.


Sorry - you are still stating JS is facing certain defeat no matter what it does. That is, putting it bluntly, ridiculous and contrary to Trams statement regarding the war changing and even ending in some aspects.

"Could crush" means exactly that. The outcome could go either way in a war. No other reading makes sense to me.

Yeah, see slight problem with this "Parley is a time when hostilities cease". It isn't. Queen Bea saw to that by attacking during a parley. Tram is an utter fool if he actually believes GK has any obligation to honor parleys after the stunt Queen Bea pulled. And of course the first thing Jillian did after negotiating a truce with Wanda is break it, so again the RCC is pretty fail when it comes to keeping its word.


Didn't say that there was any rule prohibiting breaking a ceasefire. But parleys are a time when hostilities cease to allow for negotiations. Requesting a ceasefire to allow for parley is a redundant request....you can't have a parley without it, even though you can break that rule after it begins.

Simply put, the request for parley is, in and of itself, a request for a ceasefire to allow talks to take place. You don't need to spell out that a ceasefire is needed for parley because without it, you don't have a parley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby suryasm » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:52 am

I think we've reached the point where anyone who brings up Tram's intelligence (or lack thereof) should be declared a troll. I mean, this is beginning to read like an argument between fanatics - no matter how well thought out the argument from one side, it will do nothing to convince the other. Instead, both sides seek to take personal insult when someone questions their position, no matter how reasonable the objection.

I think the sane members should join me in calling out to Rob to update as quickly as possible, if only so we can move on to arguing about something else.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby oslecamo2 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:36 am

suryasm wrote:I think the sane members should join me in calling out to Rob to update as quickly as possible, if only so we can move on to arguing about something else.


You're being waaayyy too optimistic. Since the next updates will surely cover Jetstone vs GK, and Trems is Jetstone's current warlord, we'll have even more on that topic to argue about!

Because, well, that's what kinda started this whole argument. Trems seems to suffer from some extreme dual personality syndrome, where the constantly changes from "Sohpisticated tactical genius" to "Hur Durr!"

For example in this text update:

Tramennis smiled wistfully. "'Why war?' Why must we survive only by making others perish? If the Titans can make anything and everything, why not give each of us a world? Make us a paradise filled with all our hearts' desires and let us live forever within it."
- wise and toughtfull mode.

Ten seconds later...

Tramennis put his hands on his hips and looked up at Expository Bridge. He took a few steps toward it, and stroked his chin in thought. "The order of the day, Duke, shall be the ending of lives in pain, terror, and confusion!"
-Hurr Durr mode!

And then on thistext update

There were some frowns at that. Ossomer had preached infantry so much that the specialty units had come to be looked upon as a secondary tactical option at best. But Tramennis pointed out that with superior leadership, they could take the sourmanders and cloth golems into the adjoining hex and plow untouched through any unled stacks, take out the enemy's remaining leadership, and it would be over.

"Heavies will be useless against flyers, so let us use them here where they will do the most good," he said, to uncertain nodding.
-Back to smart tactician mode.

Ten seconds later...

Instead, he spurred his mount and hopped jarringly forward toward the bridge, thinking about salad.

He quite enjoyed a nice appetizer salad, and with the turn coming early, he'd had no opportunity for breakfast.
-back to "Hurr Durr" mode !

Trems personality is highly unstable. One moment he's thinking carefully analyzing the situation and preparing his next move, the next he's indulging his whims when he has a battle to fight.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ditto » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:53 am

Text update 1:
Gee, war sucks. We're about to be wiped out painfully because that is the way of things.
::bubblegum depops::
Hey, we're not going to be wiped out. Let's go wipe out the other guy painfully, because that is the way of things!

He was quoting himself from two paragraphs before. He doesn't just talk like that about wanton destruction.

Text update 2:
I have a great plan that uses our less-valuable resources effectively.
::it works perfectly::
Instead of thinking about fallen allies, who I might actually see fighting ME (which I find unsettling), I'm thinking about something else. And I'm hungry. Due to a very strange and unprecedented set of circumstances, which is odd and tangentially on my mind as I go into battle.

Not really a hur durr moment. Fighting on an empty stomach is apparently in some way significant. It's reflective of his current situation going into battle without knowing what exactly happened to enable it, and possibly considered another example of looking forward in battleplanning as he puzzles over what Kingworld means to him. It might just be that all of JS is kind of hungry right now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby oslecamo2 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:24 am

Ditto wrote:Text update 1:
Gee, war sucks. We're about to be wiped out painfully because that is the way of things.
::bubblegum depops::
Hey, we're not going to be wiped out. Let's go wipe out the other guy painfully, because that is the way of things!

He was quoting himself from two paragraphs before. He doesn't just talk like that about wanton destruction.


Well, precisely my point.
-Oh woe, why we must wage war like this? Why can't we settle our conflicts whitout bloodshed and suffering?
Goes into:
-KILL MAIM BURN!
And then back into:
-We should stop this needless conflict and make a mutual-benefit alliace in order to better face Charlie's overwhelming power.
And then yet again back to:
-YOH BRO YOU SUCK AND YOUR CHIEF WARLORD SUCKS EVEN MORE! GIVE ME YOUR BEST SHOT C'MON! WHAT, YOU'RE KILLING MY TROOPS? PFFT I CAN BUY NEW ONES!

This is, his inner toughts aren't very linear. One moment he's wondering about arts and music and the meaning of existence, the other he's scoffing at his oponents and taking his sweet time to enjoy their (aparently) inferior position.

Well, it may be one of those cases of being too smart to the point you go all the way around to idiot. Trems is simply asking too many question on the current situation (What's Charlie up to? Who is this Hamster? How do I finish this threat? Could Ossomer be turned? Does he react the same? Can I get an alliance out of this?), when he should be focused solving one problem at a time. Aka "How do I finish this threat".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Sieggy » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:31 am

suryasm wrote:I think we've reached the point where anyone who brings up Tram's intelligence (or lack thereof) should be declared a troll. I mean, this is beginning to read like an argument between fanatics - no matter how well thought out the argument from one side, it will do nothing to convince the other. Instead, both sides seek to take personal insult when someone questions their position, no matter how reasonable the objection.

I think the sane members should join me in calling out to Rob to update as quickly as possible, if only so we can move on to arguing about something else.

This is sort of like the argument over Obama. Those who hate him do so viscerally, and there's nothing you can say that will affect their attitude in the least. They will seize on anything, twist whatever is said, and expand on the wildest delusional speculations of others to bolster their positions. And anyone not sharing their views are regarded as his braindead followers . . .

Trem is not 'the perfect diplomat'. He's a native of Erf, a product of the Titan's will, He's gone from being #2 comic relief to gum-laden Dwagon bait to CWL , watched one brother kidnapped, croaked, & turned into an undead creature, another brother kidnapped by a psycho warbitch who saved then betrayed them, watched an expected treacher step up and take one for the cause, discovered that the most mysterious and dangerous person in Erfworld is afraid of somebody even more mysterious and dangerous than he is, realizes that he and possibly everyone else in the RCC being manipulated, and that because of this, he needs to re-think their entire war strategy from the ground up, and question the very basis of the war. All in less than one turn.

Trem is talented, perhaps even brilliant, but he's been through a LOT, is under enormous pressure, and is doing as well as can be expected. It's not his fault he's up against a trans-dimensional warlord wizard who treats the world like a game instead of being immersed in its reality. In short, quit quibbling, sit back and enjoy the story.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby joosy » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:18 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:You're being waaayyy too optimistic. Since the next updates will surely cover Jetstone vs GK, and Trems is Jetstone's current warlord, we'll have even more on that topic to argue about!


No no no. I have it on good authority that the next update will be a detailed account of a debate in the Magic Kingdom about the meaning of color in flowers and how it is related to the meaning of color in dwagons. Expect the introduction of a know-it-all signamancer who although gruff is lovable and prone to spoonerisms.

(receives hurried whisper from offstage)

What? No? .. Its not..? Well, dammit, it should be.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ditto » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:49 pm

He's a gruff but lovable signamancer who can't talk straight. She's a peace-loving florist with a secret.

They Fight Crime!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby effataigus » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:06 pm

Well, if anyone is going to rephrase the post before his in a succinct fashion, it might as well be Ditto ;) (EDIT, referring to several posts ago rather than the link he just posted!)

I've read over this debate on Tram's intelligence with some interest. It's weird... when I read Erfworld I walk away with a set of impressions from it, but I'm rarely sure of exactly what gave rise to them. Reflecting upon the conversation brought many of Oberon's, Kyrt's, and others' arguments to mind. Once I begin arguing in a direction I'm committed to it, and the counterarguments become painful to think about so I usually just don't think about them unless I really force myself to (hence situations like these where we're talking past each other).

Anyway, on this issue, I haven't been convinced of either direction. Tram's line of action is unconventional and brilliant, but I also think that he's too mentally committed to his current view of his situation tactically. Ansom's pre-bridge-battle text update hinted that he is highly flexible and that he goes into battle expecting to be taken off-guard. From the brief glimpses we've seen, Tram seems less willing to be convinced that the enemy can surprise him using means that he has yet to anticipate. Admittedly, he hasn't had much time to react, but, as I said in an earlier post, his few reactions have smacked more of disbelief than of worry.

I'm sure time will tell on that issue, but for now, Tram remains one of my favorite characters. He may (or may not) be tactically inflexible, but he has shown himself to be far more flexible in his stances on fundamental aspects of his existence than other units (Is war necessary? Can diplomacy get us farther? Can GK be more than a threat to us? Is Jetstone's way superior to Faq's? Why can't I be fabulous?)

I think I see the same potential for Tram that Geordy did. I'm not sure where his post on this ended up, but Geordy at one point put up a bit of fanfic that described the last couple of turns on Erfworld from Tram's perspective. If anyone is looking for a fun read to tide them over during Rob's move, I recommend it!

I'm very tempted to post 5 times in rapid succession just to see if I get a prize for being the 500th replier to this topic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby effataigus » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:42 pm

OMG... next update, new character... who is eet??
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:46 pm

I think it's the predictamancer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:48 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:I think it's the predictamancer.


This makes too much sense, given the bits we were told in that other thread.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:51 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:I think it's the predictamancer.


This makes too much sense, given the bits we were told in that other thread.


Hey, I do my best not to be one of the 90-percenters. ;)

I think it also makes sense in that the predictamancer is a likely candidate for an upcoming text update, too.
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