Charlie

[WaterMonkey314]

Here's a random thought I just had: why is Charlie so concerned about any possible leaking of information about Charlescomm by the decrypted Archons? Since it says that they treat Parson & co. as "full service" clients here (http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png), couldn't any side that hired an Archon for full service do the same and debrief the Archon?

[effataigus]

Here's a random thought I just had: why is Charlie so concerned about any possible leaking of information about Charlescomm by the decrypted Archons? Since it says that they treat Parson & co. as "full service" clients here (http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png), couldn't any side that hired an Archon for full service do the same and debrief the Archon?

This is a good question, and I'm not seeing a clear answer.

I have three possible answers (none of which can I prove to be correct):

1. Charlie mind-wipes archons before sending them out for a full-service contract.
2. He is assuming that nobody would think to use full service to plumb his secrets except Parson.
3. The secrets he is worried about are something other than what the archons are saying about Charlescomm.

As I said, weak answers.

Interestingly, the full-service contract doesn't explicitly preclude the archons sending intel back to Charlescomm and the ominous filming of the banana experiment suggests that this might actually be happening. We've seen that decrypted are fanatics about toolism, but then, Charlie is also a tool, so I wouldn't see sending GK's secrets back to Chalescomm as a violation of their newfound loyalty to the arkentools.

[Native Jovian]

Except that decrypted aren't loyal to the arkentools, they're loyal to Wanda, which isn't the same thing at all. The only one who's really up in arms about Toolism is Ansom, and that's probably just because he was so up in arms about royalty before he was decrypted.

[effataigus]

Well, there is a lot of decrypted internal dialogue to go back and forth as to where their loyalties truly lie. My reading of what we have read so far is that they are loyal to the idea of the new titanic mandate expressed concisely as toolism. Ansom, for instance, in a summer update indicates that it would be against "the will of the titans" to hate Stanley. If he was purely loyal to Wanda, would that be a problem? Ossomer seems to be toeing the same party line.

Also, from Wrigley: "He loved the Titans, and Wanda their Tool, for granting him this new life and this new spear."

This is to say I disagree that they are loyal exclusively to Wanda except as an extension of the will of the titans (and surely the other attuned tools would be as well), but I'm open to having someone show me the light! This argument is equal parts conviction and devil's advocate... I was convinced of the contrary view ever since Wanda's "you are mine comment" until I realized that I had no firm way to back up that standpoint. Now I'm arguing against it, in part, to see if the original view is defensible.

[effataigus]

I have three possible answers (none of which can I prove to be correct):

1. Charlie mind-wipes archons before sending them out for a full-service contract.
2. He is assuming that nobody would think to use full service to plumb his secrets except Parson.
3. The secrets he is worried about are something other than what the archons are saying about Charlescomm.

Oh, and:

4. Charlie doesn't know that the archons are treating GK as a full-service client. He might believe that the archons are treating GK as though it were Charlescomm... seems unlikely that the archons would be withholding info from Wanda's side though!

[WaterMonkey314]

I have three possible answers (none of which can I prove to be correct):

1. Charlie mind-wipes archons before sending them out for a full-service contract.
2. He is assuming that nobody would think to use full service to plumb his secrets except Parson.
3. The secrets he is worried about are something other than what the archons are saying about Charlescomm.

Oh, and:

4. Charlie doesn't know that the archons are treating GK as a full-service client. He might believe that the archons are treating GK as though it were Charlescomm... seems unlikely that the archons would be withholding info from Wanda's side though!

You know, THAT might be it - and why Charlie is so set on getting one captured alive.

[MarbitChow]

why is Charlie so concerned about any possible leaking of information about Charlescomm by the decrypted Archons? Since it says that they treat Parson & co. as "full service" clients, couldn't any side that hired an Archon for full service do the same and debrief the Archon?

Yes, but any side that *hired* full-service archons from Charlie means he gets to pick which ones to send.
Since he can crank out at least one a turn, he would simply supply the client with brand new archons, who haven't had a chance to learn anything that they weren't already popped with.
In addition, they're still actually loyal to Charlie first (unlike the decrypted), so he can give them orders such as 'Do anything at all that they want, except answer any questions about me'.
He could even be so devious as to deliberately plant the Archon with false information before sending them off to die.

The main point being, he still completely controls those archons who supply 'full service'. He doesn't control the decrypted, so he can't control his exposure.

[alexanderdsoso]

Personally... I think Charlie IS the city.

[Tiger]

I have three possible answers (none of which can I prove to be correct):

1. Charlie mind-wipes archons before sending them out for a full-service contract.
2. He is assuming that nobody would think to use full service to plumb his secrets except Parson.
3. The secrets he is worried about are something other than what the archons are saying about Charlescomm.

Oh, and:

4. Charlie doesn't know that the archons are treating GK as a full-service client. He might believe that the archons are treating GK as though it were Charlescomm... seems unlikely that the archons would be withholding info from Wanda's side though!

The Archons can't treat GK as if it were Charlescomm because the organizational system is so different. They're treating Parson as the other warlords as if they were clients who paid for full service because they have no other way to determine the proper way to determine how to deal with superiors who aren't Charlie. They can't treat them as clients because they are loyal to GK, whereas they're expected to screw over clients at every opportunity. So they treat GK's warlords as full-service clients - people they will obey orders from unconditionally, but won't worship like they do Charlie.

I don't understand why only one person has put forward the obvious explanation - that the Archons are still technically Charlescomm units when serving clients who paid for "full service", and as such they still won't do anything that Charlie orders em not to do. He just orders them to do everything they're asked oto do except reveal trade secrets. The Decrypted archons actually are GK units with no loyalty to Charlie, so they will reveal secrets.

On the other hand, the theory has been put forth that the Archons are still loyal to Charlie because they're loyal to all of the Arkentools equally. This seems somewhat plausible to me, but I doubt that's the case. It's pretty clear that they are loyal to Wanda and only Wanda. Their loyalty to Stanley seems completely dependent on Wanda's - it's even expected that they'll follow her if she betrays him - and none of them have shown any indication that they have any loyalties toward Charlie at all.

[ParsonIsOP]

Here's a random thought I just had: why is Charlie so concerned about any possible leaking of information about Charlescomm by the decrypted Archons? Since it says that they treat Parson & co. as "full service" clients here (http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png), couldn't any side that hired an Archon for full service do the same and debrief the Archon?

There may be a real simple solution here.

"Full service" may not mean that Archons disclose intelligence. If anybody is willing to make such a contract, then Charlie likely has some kind of hold over the other party beforehand. Remember, Charlie enforced a secrecy clause on Jillian before offering his services. So he'd probably cover his ass in such an eventuality if it ever mattered. There is no such thing as a "standard deal" with Charlie. That's an illusion he promotes to make him look as impersonal and bland as a vending machine.

The turned Archons are simply trying to rationalize their new loyalty. The rationalization may be illogical if we assume the above about Charlie. But that doesn't matter since the Archons are just clinging onto old modes of behavior that make them feel comfortable.

If Loyalty works the way we think it does, the Archons would be required to surrender such information if asked. In any event, Charlie would be wise to take precautions.

[WaterMonkey314]

Here's a random thought I just had: why is Charlie so concerned about any possible leaking of information about Charlescomm by the decrypted Archons? Since it says that they treat Parson & co. as "full service" clients here (http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png), couldn't any side that hired an Archon for full service do the same and debrief the Archon?

There may be a real simple solution here.

"Full service" may not mean that Archons disclose intelligence. If anybody is willing to make such a contract, then Charlie likely has some kind of hold over the other party beforehand. Remember, Charlie enforced a secrecy clause on Jillian before offering his services. So he'd probably cover his ass in such an eventuality if it ever mattered. There is no such thing as a "standard deal" with Charlie. That's an illusion he promotes to make him look as impersonal and bland as a vending machine.

The turned Archons are simply trying to rationalize their new loyalty. The rationalization may be illogical if we assume the above about Charlie. But that doesn't matter since the Archons are just clinging onto old modes of behavior that make them feel comfortable.

If Loyalty works the way we think it does, the Archons would be required to surrender such information if asked. In any event, Charlie would be wise to take precautions.

I don't exactly see Charlie as willing to let his Archons talk even under a non-disclosure agreement - he seems too paranoid for that.

That said, the rationalization idea makes more sense - for that matter, no one really quite knows what Wanda's hold on the Decrypted really is, so they very well may be acting against their will and trying to rationalize it.

[Utoryo]

The rationalisation idea is plausible, but here's another one: for "full service" clients, Charlie only offers newly popped archons who wouldn't know most of that information. Or maybe the Arkendish lets him erase his units' memory of such facts before signing the deal. Or both.