Book 2 – Page 50

[Kyrt]

There's a whole bunch of really good reasons why Trem didn't open up with that line, but ultimately the evidence speaks for itself: he should have.

Why? Again, your position makes sense only if Tram had a time limit. He didn't. He has no reason to hurry. And he has reason to speak with Ossomer first. If nothing esle, he needs to find and corroborate as much as he can about Parson so he isn't going into negotiations relying totally on Charleis info.

[BLANDCorporatio]

In short hold a parley. Which was happening.

Is this a Bill Clinton defense? There's something that somebody calls a parley, and all of a sudden it's an effective attempt at diplomacy?

No, it isn't, because an important player is not in the loop for the parley. But is in the loop to order tantrums.

Look - all your arguments are based on one one overwhelming premise....that Tram had one opportunity to talk and that there was a time limit.

And seeing as how Wanda got to ground, and is going to unleash hell, there was. Now, Trem didn;t know the exact nature of the plan. But a "tantrum" is fishy, so once something happens, time is of the essence. This was not two armies facing each other in an armistice.

The idea that his opening words would be "DONTATTACKIREALLYWANTTOARRANGEADEALWITHPARSON" is somewhat far fetched. NO diplomatic dialogue begins this way. Nor is there any consideration to be polite. Indeed, in many stories a certain degree of bravado and one upmanship and insults during such negotiations is expected....{snip}

Make the opening statement as ludicrous as you like, it's still better than what actually happened. because Trem should have known that Parson was not expecting a parley, and probably devoted his weird skills to planning an out from a conflict situation. Trem's priority should have been to get Parson on the line. Trade banter then.

[atalex]

The very TV Tropes page you cite to describes "holding the idiot ball" as an act of incredible, willful stupidity that exists only to drive the plot in some way.

Why, yes. You have grasped my point exactly. The kind of willful stupidity that has a character who is described as being the smart diplomat, who has made more shmuckers for Jetstone than any other Prince due to his keen diplomatic skills, who has the respect of Ossomer "Do you ever tire of bring wrong" and his father for those skills, has this character when finally presented with a situation where he could have acted like a diplomar instead acted like a prat and fail to accomplish the very thing he said he wanted to accomplish: Forge an alliance with GK. Not only fail to accomplish it, but failed to even try because he somehow saw more value in needling Ossomer than making sure his opponents knew that he intended to bargain in earnest. All because the plot needed Parson to attack Jetstone, or we couldn't have had GK men raining down from the Jetstone sky in a story entitled "It's raining men", yes, that is a fine example of driving the plot by having a character act in a manner that is directly opposite of what they have been said to be all along.

Yes, I do grasp your point exactly. It can be summarized as follows: "Trammenis is not omniscient and does not know several important details that he logically cannot possibly know at this point in the narrative. Therefore, he is an idiot." At this point, I am beginning to wonder if you have a secret ad buried somewhere on the TV Tropes page for "Idiot Ball" and you collect click-revenue whenever you drive up hits on that page. Regardless, I think this entire debate is becoming farcical, and I'm done with it. Hopefully, someone will post something interesting about this update that does not contain the words "idiot" or "ball," either separately or in close proximity.

[Oberon]

Funny thing is, there's some common ground even between the most acrimoniously separated debaters here. I'll try and sketch such a middle position here.

This should be a fun game, and I'll play along!

"Is Trem a competent Warlord?" is a red herring. There are shades of competence, and Trem is outmatched. Not because he didn't see Parson's plan (and people, don't start throwing comparisons with the Zombcano thing, which actually was way out of left field for Erfworlders), but because he didn't react (I'd say, at all) to control the "tantrum".

He is, I'd say. He was sent out to win or die as a warlord prince, and instead "cornered the enemy" (or something close to that) came back with a lucrative bit of tribute for Jetstone.

"Is Trem a competent Diplomat?"- again, shades of competence bla-bla, but let's agree that competence gets results, or, if it fails, it's because of some external, uncontrollable factor. Like, for example, the opponent not wanting to parley. BUT, wait, maybe there's something you can do to at least tilt the odds in the favour of parley. Trem should know that Royal Sides, when perceiving themselves in positions of power, will extend "parley" as an insult. Therefore, he should (have) move(d) to dispel this notion as quickly as possible.

Instead, Trem spends his first lines of dialogue on insults, which is completely in-character. We know since his first appearance that he's a joker. Ribbing on his discussion partner is just how he rolls, and just couldn't resist doing it this time too. Maybe this allows him to "get the measure of the man/woman", maybe it works, most of the time. Didn't happen to work now.

I'll agree with all of this as well. Tram must be a competent diplomat, Slately muses that he has done more for the Jetstone coffers than any of his siblings. That seems significant to me. And I also agree that starting out the discussion with Ossomer was entirely in line with his character as a joker. But let's go back to your statement that "competence gets results." It does, and the competent person knows when to remain in character and when to break it. Knowing as he must the reputation of royal parleys as being insults followed up by attack, opening what he intended to be an honest parley for an alliance with insults should be seen as idiocy, as it does nothing to dissuade the other side that you do not also intend to follow up those insults with the expected next step: the attack. And when you anticipate losing your yellows that can actually do something against the enemy (another fact Tram was well aware of, twice he mentioned that they could attack), using them to inflict as much damage as is possible before they die does seem like the better choice to having them fly idle until killed.

So, can we agree that without any attempt by Tram to quickly convince the GK forces and/or Parson that Tram actually intended an honest negotiation, that the attack by the yellows was inevitable? And if we can so agree, was it not more important for Tram to try to act as the smart diplmat he is described as being, and diplomatically deliver that message fast, rather than remaining in his joker character and insulting Ossomer and Stanley and communicating by those insults that this parley is going to be the expected insults followed by attack?

If I can get some agreement on those last two questions, then there may be hope for this discussion.

[Kyrt]

The atrium doesn't need to be be repaired immediately --- The atrium wouldn't have been damaged and in need of repair if Tram was a smart diplomat.
Jetstone was going to have to disband some units anyway --- Tram expected to sue for "reparations", why not just ask/demand the shmuckers you need to, you know, not have to disband some units in the next turn?

Because Tram coudln't be sure of a successful parley, no matter what he did. He didn't need to ask for a ceasefire as that comes with parley.

IF the parley was successful....Tran would likely have had the schmuckers as reparations.
If they weren't....again, no immediate need to repair the atrium and fewer troops to disband.

Was there anyway Tram could prevent GK attacking? No, there wasn't. Leaving aside what GK would or would not have done, Parleys require ceasefire. If a parley took place, there would be the ceasefire anyway and the atrium would not have been attacked if Parson upheld the conventions. If he didn't, then specifying a ceasefire as part of the requirements wouldn't have helped.

Now...to the core point...IF Tram had immediately asked to be put through to Parson for talks regarding a pact, would the attack have still taken place? A fair chance, but Parson, I believe, would have been amenable to talks....there was no deadline on his plan, he does do diplomacy and he also is in a no-lose situation in that he can put his plan into motion at any time. He may or may not have come to some agreement but he likely would have been willing to talk.....so long as it didn't cost him his chance of surviving/winning.

Is there any reason Tram should forego talking to Ossomer first? Not one. Indeed, there are some benefits as it allows him to guage the decrpyteds responses and find out more info about Parson. What reason does he have to hurry? He has none. Why open with a demand to speak with Parson and give up a chance to talk with Ossomer, to probe him, to get info about Parson?

[BLANDCorporatio]

So, can we agree that without any attempt by Tram to quickly convince the GK forces and/or Parson that Tram actually intended an honest negotiation, that the attack by the yellows was inevitable? And if we can so agree, was it not more important for Tram to try to act as the smart diplmat he is described as being, and diplomatically deliver that message fast, rather than remaining in his joker character and insulting Ossomer and Stanley and communicating by those insults that this parley is going to be the expected insults followed by attack?

If I can get some agreement on those last two questions, then there may be hope for this discussion.

Hey, you have that agreement from me since my post on the previous page. It's not me that needs convincing.

[Smoker]

There's a whole bunch of really good reasons why Trem didn't open up with that line, but ultimately the evidence speaks for itself: he should have.

Why? Again, your position makes sense only if Tram had a time limit. He didn't.

But he did. He had about one minute. He didn't know that, but the fact remains that if he hadn't indulged in his pecking at Ossomer, he would have at least had a chance to use his diplomacy.

See, I've made mistakes at work, which were absolutely not my fault. Things happened which I had no reasonable chance of knowing about, and because of that other things have gone wrong. On explaining this, the very best I've managed to get is a half sympathetic grimace from my boss before he then goes on to carve me a new asshole. It's the way of things.

He has no reason to hurry. And he has reason to speak with Ossomer first. If nothing esle, he needs to find and corroborate as much as he can about Parson so he isn't going into negotiations relying totally on Charleis info.

This is entirely reasonable, but in hindsight it was the wrong move.

Ok, if you're walking through a dungeon and there are two doors, one of them leads to certain doom, and one leads to .. something better.. whatever. If you pick the wrong door, you made a mistake. No one's gonna hold it against you, but its still the wrong move. That's all I'm saying.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Because Tram coudln't be sure of a successful parley, no matter what he did. He didn't need to ask for a ceasefire as that comes with parley.

IF the parley was successful....Tran would likely have had the schmuckers as reparations.
If they weren't....again, no immediate need to repair the atrium and fewer troops to disband.

Was there anyway Tram could prevent GK attacking? No, there wasn't. Leaving aside what GK would or would not have done, Parleys require ceasefire.

{snip}

Now...to the core point...IF Tram had immediately asked to be put through to Parson for talks regarding a pact, would the attack have still taken place? A fair chance, but Parson, I believe, would have been amenable to talks....

{snip}

Is there any reason Tram should forego talking to Ossomer first? Not one. Indeed, there are some benefits as it allows him to guage the decrpyteds responses and find out more info about Parson.

So getting to talk with Parson was important, and it's fine we agree to this.

Where we separate ways is you insisting there was no deadline.

Picture this: Ossomer flies towards the Tower. Trem greets him. They exchange pleasantries and witticisms. Maybe even have tea. They have a lengthy conversation about what's been going on recently. Oh yeas, maybe we should bring an Archon over and get Parson in on the discussion.

Not once in the above paragraph did I mention the flying force, because in that version of events, they are just sitting put and doing nothing.

That is not what happened. The moment the fliers do something suspicious (and crapping on your buildings should be), an urgent reaction is called for. "Time" is of the essence.

[Kyrt]

No, it isn't, because an important player is not in the loop for the parley. But is in the loop to order tantrums.

Tram is in a parley with ossomer. Not Parson.

And seeing as how Wanda got to ground, and is going to unleash hell, there was. Now, Trem didn;t know the exact nature of the plan. But a "tantrum" is fishy, so once something happens, time is of the essence. This was not two armies facing each other in an armistice.

Tram didn't know there was a time limit...period. GKs attack was foreseen and dealt with. It was also, ultimately, of no value or consequence. Shoudl Tram have foreseen that Parson was about to break Erfworld laws of physics and maneuvere his pieces where they actually be a treath? No. And without that knowledge, Trams actions are reasonable, in keeping with his character and needs. Time was never of the essence because ultimately, GK had no escape...it would parley or die.

Until you can provide some reason why Tram should have been in a hurry, I don't see any reason to see why he was holding the idiot ball.

Make the opening statement as ludicrous as you like, it's still better than what actually happened. because Trem should have known that Parson was not expecting a parley, and probably devoted his weird skills to planning an out from a conflict situation. Trem's priority should have been to get Parson on the line. Trade banter then.

In short, Tram should have known that Parson was capable of working around Erfworld laws. I disagree. Tram acted the way he did because he had all the time he needed. He could probe Ossomer for reactiosna nd info. He could arrange a more formal negotiation. And so on. No time limit. For him to think Parson had an "out" meant he would have realised Parson would break Erfworld laws of physics. Thats an unreasonable pre-requisite for not holding an idiot ball.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Tram is in a parley with ossomer. Not Parson.

Yes, and that's a problem. Trem should be in a parley with Parson, and since GK started to make suspicious moves, that should have been soon.

If you don't mind, I won't respond to the rest of the post- because I did so, twice, in previous posts. If you just repeat what you claim previously, ok, but I see no reason to type all that again. Trem knew Parson didn't expect a parley, Trem knew Parson was dangerous, Trem should have moved to get Parson on the line as soon as things started to get sour.

[Kyrt]

But he did. He had about one minute. He didn't know that, but the fact remains that if he hadn't indulged in his pecking at Ossomer, he would have at least had a chance to use his diplomacy.

Less than a minute.

But again...why give up the chance to probe Ossomer? Find out what he knows about Parson now he's on their side? Why get down to talks with Parson RIGHT NOW when there was no urgent need to do so?

Ok, if you're walking through a dungeon and there are two doors, one of them leads to certain doom, and one leads to .. something better.. whatever. If you pick the wrong door, you made a mistake. No one's gonna hold it against you, but its still the wrong move. That's all I'm saying.

Trams opening move was to probe Ossomer - apparently to see how strong his loyalty was, what his reactions and memories were like and to find out info about Parson. Thats potentially valuable information which may be of use in a negotiation with Parson. Why give up that opportunity?

And if he had done so..what then? Would Ossomer have been able to talk to Parson as Parson was then giving his orders to attack? Not likely. Would Parson have called off his attack having tipped his hand? Not likely. Would Tram have left the yellows in play having seen them attack? Not likely. Judging by the damage to the roof, Tram had mere seconds to act before that attack started.

So...his "wrong choice" may have given him information he could have used when he talked with Parson and his right choice likely would have changed nothing. His wrong choice offered the potential to increase his chances of a successful negotiation while his right one gave him nothign except the potential to talk to Parson a couple of minutes earlier.

Tram asking to be put through to Parson immediately may have worked. If Ossomer had done so - whichw asn't certain as he'd ben ordered to stall. But Tram didn't have that much time to do so before Parson began.

Was it a mistake to talk to Ossomer? I don't think so. It offered several potential benefits. And the only reason to forego that info would be if Tram felt he had a time limit....which he reasonably could not be expected to be aware of.

[Kyrt]

That is not what happened. The moment the fliers do something suspicious (and crapping on your buildings should be), an urgent reaction is called for. "Time" is of the essence.

A: At that stage it was too late...Parson won't call off his attack
B: Tram did do something...he shot the yellows down. As the other colours couldn't do anything harmful, there was no need to take the action further. There is still no time limit. There is only a time limit if you think there is a way around the laws of Erfworld.

[BLANDCorporatio]

A: At that stage it was too late...Parson won't call off his attack
B: Tram did do something...he shot the yellows down. As the other colours couldn't do anything harmful, there was no need to take the action further. There is still no time limit. There is only a time limit if you think there is a way around the laws of Erfworld.

A: how do you know? Or better yet, how would Trem know, and that's what counts.
B: He didn't do something that we should all agree was crucial: say "take me to your leader". Or something to that effect, ie, something to get Parson on the line. Or try to.

It may have failed. But he didn't even try.

Look, are we going to go was/wasn't a time limit? The yellows were attacking his troops, already this is cause for worry. If you don't see this, then we really cannot get anywhere.

[Smoker]

Another point: I've had more time to think on this than Trem has, but then again I'm not a diplomat. Perhaps a diplomat might have noticed that the newly converted, rankless unit being sent in for parley does not make for a genuine negotiation.

Perhaps a diplomat, upon seeing the approach of such a unit, might have waved him away, and said "I will speak to the Croakamancer, your Cheif Warlord, or your Ruler."

This might have forced Parson to talk to Trem personally, even if he still had the intention of simply distracting him while his forces ... (insert "Opening Move" / "Bowel Movement" pun..)

Next:

Less than a minute.

He had from the moment he gave his first orders to move the dwagons over the garrison to the moment the atrium was damaged so much as to allow the first dwagons to fall though it. At any point in this time he could have made his intentions clear to Parson that he wanted to make a genuine offer, and still had the GK units unharmed to use as hostages. It wasn't until the units started dropping that Trem lost his bargaining power.

(And yeah, Parson may not have answered the call at a certain point, but it was certainly still worth a shot.)

And finally:
It's also possible for Tram to open a thinkagram to Parson directly, by concentrating for Charlie. There's probably a few good reasons why this isn't preferred, but its still an option.

[nth]

Anyone else notice Jack was the one who said "In the middle by the red dragon"? Also note that the middle by the red dragon is where all the arrows are going. Did he serve a double purpose by sending the wounded enemy leader into friendly fire?

Yup.

We know that leaderless stacks in the wild have no choice but to suicidally engage an attacking enemy. I wonder if we're about to find out that the same is true within a city zone...

[Kyrt]

B: He didn't do something that we should all agree was crucial: say "take me to your leader". Or something to that effect, ie, something to get Parson on the line. Or try to.

Nonsense.

He was going to speak with Parson. He made that much clear.

"I will be speaking with your Chief Warlord presently"

What we're arguing about is timing.

You say he should have forgotten about talking with Ossomer and ignored the possibility of getting some useful information or corroboration from him in favour of setting up a direct Thinkagram link with Parson ASAP in order to avoid an attack he should have suspected was coming.

I say that, without knowledge of a deadline, there were advantages to talking with Ossomer first and that, without that deadline, Tram could reasonably have expected all the time he needed to contact Parson. And unless he could foresee Parsons exploit, there was no time limit, no deadline to beat. The attack by the yellows was foreseen and his response appropriate given Trams desire to maintain his bargaining hand. What Tram didn't consider....because to Erfworlders it would normally be physically impossible...was the possibility that the other units could attack. Therefore, with the yellows gone, GKs options were limited to parley or die.

Parson chose "die".

The yellows were attacking his troops, already this is cause for worry. If you don't see this, then we really cannot get anywhere.

Of course the yellows attacking are a cause for worry. But he dealt with that. He couldn't do so before without scuppering his parley. But once they attacked he got rid of them. The point is that, none of the other GK units were in any position to be threat. They couldn't attack the atrium. They couldn't attack the tower. They can't move. They can't escape. Hes gotten rid of the ony possible threat GK could have used without engaging any of the other mounts and done so in a manner that has the minor cost of a roof and a few troops.

JS has lost a little of its bargaining power but GK is now in an arguably worse positon than it was....JS still has 600 archers and 4 tower augmented casters and now has fewer targets. GKs less likely to survive that arrow storm. And again, without that ability to bend Erfphysics, Tram would be right.

[Kyrt]

Another point: I've had more time to think on this than Trem has, but then again I'm not a diplomat. Perhaps a diplomat might have noticed that the newly converted, rankless unit being sent in for parley does not make for a genuine negotiation.

Or he could have negotiated with the warlord GK did send over.

He had from the moment he gave his first orders to move the dwagons over the garrison to the moment the atrium was damaged so much as to allow the first dwagons to fall though it. At any point in this time he could have made his intentions clear to Parson that he wanted to make a genuine offer, and still had the GK units unharmed to use as hostages. It wasn't until the units started dropping that Trem lost his bargaining power.

At best, he had from the moment parley began. Unless you want to think they'd hold parley via proxy?

It's also possible for Tram to open a thinkagram to Parson directly, by concentrating for Charlie. There's probably a few good reasons why this isn't preferred, but its still an option.

Why would he go through Charlie?

[BLANDCorporatio]

Nonsense.

He was going to speak with Parson. He made that much clear.

"I will be speaking with your Chief Warlord presently"

So why now we're not seeing Parson and Trem talking?

What I've been repeatedly saying, and you seem to ignore, is that Trem must have known that he needed to do some extra legwork to get Parson talking. Yet, Trem is offering no reasons why Parson should be speaking with him. Despite yapping for an entire page.

Plus he offers that line (which is not enough) only way, way after the yellows have started pooping the Atrium. Plus he knows that Parson can be dangerous, and instead of limiting that danger - even if he perceives it to be merely from S-Bombs to the Atrium - he makes no urgent move to start the talks. There was a deadline, and he missed it.

JS has lost a little of its bargaining power but GK is now in an arguably worse positon than it was....JS still has 600 archers and 4 tower augmented casters and now has fewer targets. GKs less likely to survive that arrow storm. And again, without that ability to bend Erfphysics, Tram would be right.

You are a clever person, and were told by someone with some information gathering ability that this guy is a dangerous warlord. You know, based on some experience/second-hand accounts, that this is so. Given that, is it smart to believe that that guy just did something to weaken their position? Or is it smarter to assume a rational opponent seeking to maximize advantage?

[peteratjet]

Despite yapping for an entire page

... or about 10 seconds real-time

Plus he offers that line (which is not enough) only way, way after the yellows have started pooping the Atrium. Plus he knows that Parson can be dangerous, and instead of limiting that danger - even if he perceives it to be merely from S-Bombs to the Atrium - he makes no urgent move to start the talks. There was a deadline,

Sure. The end of Jetstone's turn

and he missed it.

Not yet

[DoctorJest]

A: At that stage it was too late...Parson won't call off his attack
B: Tram did do something...he shot the yellows down. As the other colours couldn't do anything harmful, there was no need to take the action further. There is still no time limit. There is only a time limit if you think there is a way around the laws of Erfworld.

A: how do you know? Or better yet, how would Trem know, and that's what counts.

It wouldn't have mattered. If he started shooting everyone down, Parson would have just enacted his plan a few seconds earlier. His goal was to get his troops into the atrium, to the point he'd croak his own dwagons to do it. If Trem started shooting other colors of dwagon down, he would have just helped Parson, not hindered him. And no, before someone says it, Tram wouldn't have been able to take out Wanda, she had screening stacks between her and the archers.

B: He didn't do something that we should all agree was crucial: say "take me to your leader". Or something to that effect, ie, something to get Parson on the line. Or try to. It may have failed. But he didn't even try.

Erm, yes he did:
http://www.erfworld.com/page/7/
"I would speak to him" means "I want to talk to him".

Then:

http://www.erfworld.com/page/5/
"I will speak with your warlord presently" For those who don't know what "presently" means, it means "at the present time" i.e. "now". He was saying to Ossomer "put your boss on the phone... now."

Look, are we going to go was/wasn't a time limit? The yellows were attacking his troops, already this is cause for worry. If you don't see this, then we really cannot get anywhere.

And he ordered the Yellows shot down. He was still of the mind, reasonably so, that the yellows are the only dwagons that posed a threat since their falling battlecrap was the only thing that could attack the atrium. He believed he was removing the only threat. What he didn't realize is that by attacking dwagons of ANY color, he was helping Parson's plan.

What was his other choice? Order all dwagons shot down? That'd just helped Parson out. It's not like he had a good option by the time the dwagons started crapping at all. It was already too late. The only thing he could have done to avoid aiding Parson's plans was not attack at all. There is also no reasonable way he could have known that.