Book 2 – Page 50

[Kyrt]

Umm... no? It isn't close to impossible. This very day Kingworld devestated GK off turn from a different zone.

Really? I coulda sworn Vanna cast that spell while standing on the very balcony Tram and Slately are currently using.

Battlecwap can be used and Tram knows it.

And had a response.

The volcano trap was multi-hex off-turn.

And was a Trimancer link used by defending units.

Turnamancy can be used to move off-turn.

No Turnamancers on GKs side here.

... *sigh* Either a) Tram knows or suspects that Kingworld was a link-up. or b) he doesn't.

Trams own words suggests he does. In which case he's safe unless GK has a Turnamancer who can create a link off turn in another hex. Since it appear that he credits Charlie with kingworld...not Jillian or Vanna...then the question you are positing is....what are the odds Charlie would cast Kingworld a second time and, if he can create the link without direct physical contact at range, does GK have a Turnamancer in hex he can link with to actually cast that Turnamancy spell?

I think we can rule out another Kingworld.

Have we ever seen Wanda try to decrypt anyone across a hex boundary? Do we know whether or not it is possible?

You mean...cast a Croakamancy spell across a zone boundary?

Regarding the need for a Thinkamancer: how certain is Tramennis that GK does not have a Turnamancer, or a Thinkamancer in range?

Fairly sure. In range is inside the city. Can't cast cast spells across zone boundaries off turn.

Charlie wasn't nearby when Vanna ended GK's turn.

No...but Charlie was already linked.

Are we positive that a Thinkamancer is 100% necessary? (Even the wiki says 'apparently.')

Yes.....since thats a special power of Thinkamancers. We're told this.

If, in response to the Thinkamancy/Turnamancy link, you say, well Charlie didn't NEED to be present, the Arkendish was the means by which he facilitated Kingworld, then...what about the other Arkentools? If one can reach across boundaries, why not the others?

Because Thinkamancy is the magic of communication. Crossing hexes and boundaries is part of its role in game. You don't for example, see Stanley using his hammers shockamancy at targets several hexes away. To date, the tools, provide an unmatched power in certain specific magic fields...but those spells to date currently obey the known Erfworld laws.

Take the pliers...they can uncroak multiple units, do so quickly, keeps them fresh and reduces their upkeep to zero. Wanda without the pliers can uncroak multiple units, and if she takes the time she can create better uncroaked while reduced unit upkeep is a game function mentioned occasionally. But Croakamancy spells are subject to zone boundaries and theres no indication the powers granted by the pliers break this rule.

Again...no reason why Tram should assume a law of physics will be broken.

[Xorbon]

LOL. Ossomer-thing!
Poor Ossomer-thing looks dumbfounded.

It looks like another warlord could be joining the ranks of the decrypted! Speaking of Duke Antium, he looks like he should be in a lot of pain to the point of being incapacitated. Erfworlders must have a really high pain threshold.

Also, I just noticed the red crosses on the healomancy scroll. Nice detail.

[multilis]

If Jetstone didn't try to negotiate with GK, and they barely killed GK, then near bankrupcy are wiped out be Charlie and/or Hagar... Is Trem an idiot for not trying to negotiate?

Trem can guess Hagar's original plan, and knows not to trust Charlie after all the little double crosses before, he does not have our perspective to know which is the greatest immediate danger.

[justamessenger]

Sigh...

OK, I think someone is being intentionally difficult at this point.

Does using an Arkentool to accomplish something automatically mean it is casting a spell? When I used the term 'decrypt,' that is different from 'uncroaking' a unit. Decryption is, to the best of my knowledge, reserved for the Arkenpliers. So...when I posited the question as to whether or not Wanda has tried 'decrypting' across a boundary, I did not mean 'cast a spell' or 'cast the uncroak spell' across a boundary.

In ending, I am still rather confused as to how Kyrt came to the rather astounding certainty that Tramennis KNEW all of the information being attributed to him. If this were a pen and paper role playing session I would cry 'metagaming!' and end it right there.

Moving on: When the units are evacuated from the atrium are they crossing a hex boundary? If so, can GK's forces pursue them or will yet another exploit be needed?

Edit: For clarification: I know that the courtyard subzone is adjacent to the tower, and that in this instance the atrium is the courtyard. I guess what I am wanting to know is whether or not the units must actually enter the tower to cross the boundary...

[fractal]

If Jetstone didn't try to negotiate with GK, and they barely killed GK, then near bankrupcy are wiped out be Charlie and/or Hagar... Is Trem an idiot for not trying to negotiate?

Trem can guess Hagar's original plan, and knows not to trust Charlie after all the little double crosses before, he does not have our perspective to know which is the greatest immediate danger.

Tramennis was trying to negotiate. He just needed to seem strong to keep GK from walking all over him when discussing the treaty terms. The problem, which was probably insurmountable, is that both JS and GK believed they were stronger than the other side thought they were. Parson couldn't afford to tell JS in advance his plans for destroying them, and so JS would never offer him sufficiently favorable terms that took into account his true chances of winning. That discrepancy made peace pretty much impossible, which may be why Parson didn't even wait to hear what JS had to say.

Tramennis: "This is what I'm offering."
Parson: "That's ridiculous, I expect to get better than that if I just attack you."
Tramennis: "Attack us? You're bluffing! How could you possibly attack us?"
Parson: "Oh, I'll croak my own guys, drop them into the atrium, then decrypt them."
Tramennis: "Uh oh. I guess I'll take steps to prevent that. ... Now that you can't do that anymore, this is what I'm still offering."
Parson: "Oops."

Of course, Parson is too smart to give away his plan in advance. Unfortunately, that pretty much limits his options to:
Parson: "... Attack!"

[Oberon]

If he wasn't so planning, and by his own words he was not, then getting that message communicated clearly should have been his sole priority.

Only if there was an urgent need to do so. There was not.

This seems to be the sticking point in our discussion. I feel, for reasons which I have detailed at length several times already, that the urgency was easily apparent, and should have been especially apparent to the character who is supposed to be a smart diplomat. You disagree. That's fine, but I don't see either of us changing our minds on the matter. I find the evidence to be quite clear in support of my position, you find it to be equally clear in support of your own. I'll be happy to agree to disagree and let it drop.

Also, to those saying that Tramennis should have known the parley offer would be perceived as an insult: That's probably not how he sees it. Bear in mind that "those rotten bastards are only insulting us before they decide to slaughter us all" is one side's propaganda, the flip side of which is "we tried to be decent about it and offer them a few small favors, but they just had to be brutish and uncivilized, so we had to dispose of them."

I'm not sure I see your point. It is one of the greatest strengths of a smart diplomat to be able to understand how the enemy perceives situations, so that he can best maneuver his own reactions to take advantage and form the best resulting bargain for his own side. If you are stating that Tram failed at that basic diplomatic skill, I agree. But that has been my point all along: The single character in this story who has been called out specifically as having strengths in the field of diplomacy is also unable to look at things from the opponent's point of view and come to an accurate conclusion about how that opponent is perceiving the situation at hand, and thus be able to predict the opponent's actions instead of being shocked and surprised and then arriving at yet more incorrect opinions about those actions. Being able to understand your opponent's position and motivations and using that knowledge to your advantage is known as diplomatically out-maneuvering someone, and Tram the "smart diplomat" utterly fails at it.

And as I said earlier, I think it is what had to happen... Both the book name and Parson's reputation required that Tram fail to actually offer the fair bargain that he intended to offer. But this is a sign of authorial fiat, and not necessarily the skilled representation of a character according to how they have been built up.

[Oberon]

Tramennis was trying to negotiate.

No, he wasn't. Nothing he said to Ossomer was in any way the opening of a negotiation. Nothing. He intended to get around to negotiations, but failed.

He just needed to seem strong to keep GK from walking all over him when discussing the treaty terms. The problem, which was probably insurmountable, is that both JS and GK believed they were stronger than the other side thought they were. Parson couldn't afford to tell JS in advance his plans for destroying them, and so JS would never offer him sufficiently favorable terms that took into account his true chances of winning. That discrepancy made peace pretty much impossible, which may be why Parson didn't even wait to hear what JS had to say.

Tramennis: "This is what I'm offering."
Parson: "That's ridiculous, I expect to get better than that if I just attack you."
Tramennis: "Attack us? You're bluffing! How could you possibly attack us?"
Parson: "Oh, I'll croak my own guys, drop them into the atrium, then decrypt them."
Tramennis: "Uh oh. I guess I'll take steps to prevent that. ... Now that you can't do that anymore, this is what I'm still offering."
Parson: "Oops."

Of course, Parson is too smart to give away his plan in advance. Unfortunately, that pretty much limits his options to:
Parson: "... Attack!"

Actually, Tram said that GK might be able to beat the entire coalition even after the loss of the expeditionary force. That makes his position of strength with regards to GK only a position of strength with the Jetstone capability to destroy that expeditionary force, and not a position of strength with regards to GK proper. So posturing and insults were actually rather contrary to Tram's best interests, as history is bearing out. All Tram had as a bargaining position was the sparing of some or all of the GK forces. And if he had managed to get around to discussing those terms, I'd not be calling him an idiot. I'd be rejoicing that the sole smart diplomat which we have seen in Erfworld was doing that job to the best of his abilities, instead of opening a dialogue about alliance with a bunch of foolish insults. If Tram had even made the attempt to discuss terms in earnest, no matter the GK response, I would completely shut up about the subject. But that couldn't happen, not without Parson being vilified by the story as the guy who shrugged off alliance negotiations, which Parson himself said were necessary for the expansion of GK, in favor of more killing. Parson couldn't be the guy who hates killing and the guy who only kills when forced to, unless Tram forced him to kill. So, it happened that way.

[Ditto]

justamessenger - Decrypting is super-duper-uncroaking. It follows the same rules for the 'physical' act of dead-->revivified magic from everything we've seen.

I think it's somewhat comical that we're all faulting Tram for coming up with a really neat scenario (his non-aggression pact & the rest), and not getting a chance to play it out for various reasons. If anyone here on the forums came up with Tram's plan, they'd be laughed off the boards.

Oberon, there is no urgency to the pace of Tram's negotiation. It's a fact. Kozbot illustrated perfectly the point I made in a previous post ('what if Tram went to lunch...') with his Civ4 example. Saying you'd be satisfied if Tram *had* started out with 'Hey Ossomer, I surrender' is irrelevant because of the timing Parson laid out for his cwapping plan. I see what you're saying about not giving Parson the alternative having a plot-necessary element to it, so as not to present a choice which we'd all fault him for not taking... but again, in the immediate moment it would not have mattered in Parson's decision making process if Tram had come out with that option at this moment.

[President_Allosaurus]

I'm not sure I see your point. It is one of the greatest strengths of a smart diplomat to be able to understand how the enemy perceives situations, so that he can best maneuver his own reactions to take advantage and form the best resulting bargain for his own side.

But isn't Parson seeing things so vastly different from other Erfworldians an actual plot point in this story?

[Kyrt]

This seems to be the sticking point in our discussion. I feel, for reasons which I have detailed at length several times already, that the urgency was easily apparent, and should have been especially apparent to the character who is supposed to be a smart diplomat. You disagree. That's fine, but I don't see either of us changing our minds on the matter. I find the evidence to be quite clear in support of my position, you find it to be equally clear in support of your own. I'll be happy to agree to disagree and let it drop.

Yes...it does seem to be the sticking point. I just do not see any need for urgency or speed on Trams part - yes, the exploit is there and hes aware of the rules involved, but exploiting is Parsons modus operandi. But without that the only thing left that he has to counter is the attack by the yellows....and I don't see how anything he said or could say no matter how fast is likely to have stopped that. Even leaving aside the timing issue, Parson is the one he needs to convince not to order the attack, he has to parley with Parson to do that and that in turn needs to follow the parley with the strike force.

The single character in this story who has been called out specifically as having strengths in the field of diplomacy is also unable to look at things from the opponent's point of view and come to an accurate conclusion about how that opponent is perceiving the situation at hand, and thus be able to predict the opponent's actions instead of being shocked and surprised and then arriving at yet more incorrect opinions about those actions.

I'd disagree with that point of view. His perception is coloured by the fact that he knows, for a fact, GK can't really do anything as well as the fact that he isn't actually in negotiations with Ossomer. He wants information from Ossomer but he will be negotiating with either Parson or Stanley. From Trams pov, he is facing a defeated enemy force who will be either be wiped out out as soon as he is finished and that will in turn cause a substantial shift in power as GK loses the pliers and Wanda or sent home in disgrace as the price for peace. He doesn't see any way out of this situation for GK because they lack the tools to do so - no Turnamancer in hex for example to use those exceptions - and anything in the combat and movement rules would likely reinforce that. His opinion that GKs attack on the atriumwas a tantrum, for example, makes sense in that light...GK is making their units targets, forcing JS to kill them in order to damage a building and kill some troops which aren't able to hurt them. Damage for the sake of damage. A tantrum in other words.

His statement is wrong, but coloured by the fact that he knows GK can't do anything else so the fact it was in reality the prelude to a masterful assault understandably went over his head.

And as I said earlier, I think it is what had to happen... Both the book name and Parson's reputation required that Tram fail to actually offer the fair bargain that he intended to offer. But this is a sign of authorial fiat, and not necessarily the skilled representation of a character according to how they have been built up.

Surprisingly...I again disagree. Tram failed to get to negotiations with Parson...but its equally clear he was going to do so. Given Parson only wanted the parley to help distract and provide cover his plan wasn't going to be held off much longer.

[fractal]

I'd disagree with that point of view. His perception is coloured by the fact that he knows, for a fact, GK can't really do anything as well as the fact that he isn't actually in negotiations with Ossomer. He wants information from Ossomer but he will be negotiating with either Parson or Stanley. From Trams pov, he is facing a defeated enemy force who will be either be wiped out out as soon as he is finished and that will in turn cause a substantial shift in power as GK loses the pliers and Wanda or sent home in disgrace as the price for peace. He doesn't see any way out of this situation for GK because they lack the tools to do so - no Turnamancer in hex for example to use those exceptions - and anything in the combat and movement rules would likely reinforce that. His opinion that GKs attack on the atriumwas a tantrum, for example, makes sense in that light...GK is making their units targets, forcing JS to kill them in order to damage a building and kill some troops which aren't able to hurt them. Damage for the sake of damage. A tantrum in other words.

Well, it could be more than that - it could be a diplomatic move by GK. Perhaps Tramennis considered Parson to be flexing his muscles, and letting it be known that he wouldn't be bought off cheaply or go down easily. By destroying the yellow dwagons in response, Tramennis indicated to Parson that he wasn't impressed... or so he thought. Masterful diplomacy is useless when your opponent isn't interested in talking. Against all reason, Parson somehow had a better option than negotiation.

[Althernai]

justamessenger - Decrypting is super-duper-uncroaking. It follows the same rules for the 'physical' act of dead-->revivified magic from everything we've seen.

That part has been left unclear (probably because it is one of the central questions in the Jillian-Ansom plot). Decrypting appears to be a lot like uncroaking because it's done by a Croakamancer to corpses, but it's fundamentally different from uncroaking in that the raised unit keeps its memory and, apparently, at least some part of both its love and its loyalty (not the loyalty that is a stat -- that gets transferred to Wanda -- but loyalty as it exists in our world). I would wager it turns out to be different from uncroaking in a way that neither Parson nor even Wanda suspects.

[GaryThunder]

Bear in mind also that Tramennis is mostly used to dealing with other Royal sides. Royalty seems to be predominantly common in Erfworld, and Tramennis had specifically spent over a hundred turns recently hobnobbing with Royal sides to form the Royal Crown Coalitions I and II. He's used to people aligned with the same methods of thought he has, and he's getting a double dose of "wrong" when he hits the not just non-Royal but completely unconventional Parson. Parson is unlike anything Tramennis has ever dealt with.

[Hatu]

The single character in this story who has been called out specifically as having strengths in the field of diplomacy is also unable to look at things from the opponent's point of view and come to an accurate conclusion about how that opponent is perceiving the situation at hand, and thus be able to predict the opponent's actions instead of being shocked and surprised and then arriving at yet more incorrect opinions about those actions.

I'd disagree with that point of view. His perception is coloured by the fact that he knows, for a fact, GK can't really do anything as well as the fact that he isn't actually in negotiations with Ossomer. He wants information from Ossomer but he will be negotiating with either Parson or Stanley. From Trams pov, he is facing a defeated enemy force who will be either be wiped out out as soon as he is finished and that will in turn cause a substantial shift in power as GK loses the pliers and Wanda or sent home in disgrace as the price for peace. He doesn't see any way out of this situation for GK because they lack the tools to do so - no Turnamancer in hex for example to use those exceptions - and anything in the combat and movement rules would likely reinforce that.

Holy Zarquon, singing fish! I'm getting so sick of hearing this nonsense bandied about. It's simply not true. Tramennis was explicitly told of one way GK could attack on Space Rock off turn, and he presumably knows that falling isn't universally fatal; he just saw Ansom survive being dismounted, after all. Even if he's dead sure nothing else unexpected could happen (a ludicrous notion, since Jetstone was itself in a hopeless situation a few hours ago), those methods alone are enough to prove GK isn't "defeated." I can see why he'd be confident of ultimate victory, but that's not the same thing as having already won. It's not even on the same planet.

I find it hard to take Tram seriously as a warlord when he doesn't bother to plan for the things he CAN see coming. Ansom gets a lot of flack, but he at least knew cornered enemies were dangerous. Maybe he couldn't have salvaged the situation, and Ansom would have been as surprised by the harvesting trick as anyone else, but he damn well wouldn't order his soldiers to shelter in the one spot he knew was unsafe unless he had a mission for them. He probably would have considered how dangerous the Arkenpliers were before Wanda hit the ground, too.

And honestly, justamessenger is 100% right about the blind assumption that Decryption can't be used across city zones. AFAWK, Decryption has never been seen before Wanda picked up the 'pliers. It's an entirely new ability - far more "impossible" than anything Parson has ever done - and yet everyone on the RCC2 seems to "know" it's useless in this situation. How could they possibly know that? We don't even know that, and we've seen it used first hand.

Everything Jetstone knew about decryption came from either Bea's letter, or the info Charlie passed on to them (through Jillian, at the time). We saw Bea's letter, so that's out. Could Charlie know about it? Maybe, but I'm skeptical. He might have been able to guess decryption was same zone only by analyzing GK's attacks on the cities between Books 1 and 2, but those battles were pretty one sided; there was no need for Wanda to bother decrypting across zones even if she could. Besides, if Charlie is so paranoid about "the more than perfect Warlord," there's no way he'd bet the whole war on such a speculative guess; concealing the full capabilities of his most powerful weapon is the sort of trick Parson would love.

No, the only way Charlie could be confident that Wanda can't decrypt across zones if if he listened in on a message between Wanda and Parson discussing the topic. That's potentially plausible, assuming Wanda had to wait until she was in the field to test it out. But that's pure speculation at this point; even Charlie's eavesdropping ability is unconfirmed. Moreover, even if Charlie has somehow obtained that information, could he really have convinced the RCC2 of it? Without disclosing how he learned it, how could he convince people that his information was a certainty? Jillian might accept on faith; that's the sort of risk I could see her taking, since it lets her get the outcome she wants. But Slately and Tramennis are just as certain about Wanda's "powerless" position, and they had no direct contact with Charlie.

In my view, the only reason Tram "knows" that GK can't hurt them is because that's what the script says. He's supposed to be in a massively superior position, so he reacts accordingly regardless of how superior the position really is. Similarly, Parson's plan is an amazing exploit, even if it could have been duplicated simply by Wanda rolling a natural 20 on her Save vs Falling check. That's the nature of plot fiat theater, and it's why I should really stop trying to make sense of how Erfworld works. But that would make it impossible to speculate about why the characters do what they do, and I really like these characters.

So for now, I'm stuck assuming Tramennis is a pretty poor warlord. But I'm not making any claims about how good a diplomat he is just yet.

-H

[Lamech]

Umm... no? It isn't close to impossible. This very day Kingworld devestated GK off turn from a different zone.

Really? I coulda sworn Vanna cast that spell while standing on the very balcony Tram and Slately are currently using.

Yes, Vanna was in the tower. GK was in the airspace. Different zones.

Battlecwap can be used and Tram knows it.

And had a response.

His response for this weakens his bargaining position. Regardless it proves that off-turn attacks are possible.

The volcano trap was multi-hex off-turn.

And was a Trimancer link used by defending units.

Jack is throwing spells just fine, so GK can cast. And Trams knows that GK lacks a link? They don’t need physical contact (see Parson talking to misty.) Even if he does, we know from the last text update link spells can be placed in scrolls, so they really don’t even need a link.

Turnamancy can be used to move off-turn.

No Turnamancers on GKs side here.

First Tram can’t know this for sure. Turnamancers can be hired (see Vanna). And even if he does there are scrolls. They saw GK use a healomancy scroll, so Tram can’t possibly be sure on this.

... *sigh* Either a) Tram knows or suspects that Kingworld was a link-up. or b) he doesn't.

Trams own words suggests he does. In which case he's safe unless GK has a Turnamancer who can create a link off turn in another hex. Since it appear that he credits Charlie with kingworld...not Jillian or Vanna...then the question you are positing is....what are the odds Charlie would cast Kingworld a second time and, if he can create the link without direct physical contact at range, does GK have a Turnamancer in hex he can link with to actually cast that Turnamancy spell?

I think we can rule out another Kingworld.

We the all-knowing readers can. Tram not so much. If cross hex links are “impossible” he can’t know if Charlie needs a caster to be nearby first. If cross-hex links are not “impossible” he can’t rule out link with a unknown caster there. Or they could have got it in scroll form. But the point is not kingworld specifically; its link-spells cross hexes, and therefore if GK can link they can fight. We have 5 link-spells. Kingworld, eyemancers, volcano, summon perfect warlord, and build a city. 4 out of 5 crossed hexes or zones. (Note how the GK units were in a different zone from Vanna.)

Charlie wasn't nearby when Vanna ended GK's turn.

No...but Charlie was already linked.

And Tram knows GK didn’t do the same?

Again...no reason why Tram should assume a law of physics will be broken.

Except its not a law of physics since it can be broken by falling, battlecwap, various tri-mancer spells, and turnamancy.

[Lamech]

Double post... ima not good with comps...

[Dr Pepper]

I'm under the impression that Trem, while wanting to deal with GK, wants to have a fair deal. An honest deal. Let's not get bogged down in specifics, of course Trem seeks the furthering of JS's cause etc, but he wants/needs (or so I'm told) that parley.

Parson does not expect an honest proposal from Trem, and Trem, without sharing reader omniscience, should know this. And has not acted on this knowledge at all.

Maybe he does, in fact, not realize this. But if that's the case, he really, really should have.

I just had a thought. Trem seeks intelligence on Parson, but not vice versa. It seems that Parson has a blindspot here. "Hmm, Handsome, Awesomer, and now Tremendous. Sigh, must be another narcissistic jock." And no one has bothered to tell him differently.

[youngstormlord]

About Jack's deception: "No Antium, don't trust yourself! He is lying to you and sending you to attack mirage!".

[oslecamo2]

If Jetstone didn't try to negotiate with GK, and they barely killed GK, then near bankrupcy are wiped out be Charlie and/or Hagar... Is Trem an idiot for not trying to negotiate?

Trem can guess Hagar's original plan, and knows not to trust Charlie after all the little double crosses before, he does not have our perspective to know which is the greatest immediate danger.

Tramennis was trying to negotiate. He just needed to seem strong to keep GK from walking all over him when discussing the treaty terms. The problem, which was probably insurmountable, is that both JS and GK believed they were stronger than the other side thought they were. Parson couldn't afford to tell JS in advance his plans for destroying them, and so JS would never offer him sufficiently favorable terms that took into account his true chances of winning. That discrepancy made peace pretty much impossible, which may be why Parson didn't even wait to hear what JS had to say.

Tramennis: "This is what I'm offering."
Parson: "That's ridiculous, I expect to get better than that if I just attack you."
Tramennis: "Attack us? You're bluffing! How could you possibly attack us?"
Parson: "Oh, I'll croak my own guys, drop them into the atrium, then decrypt them."
Tramennis: "Uh oh. I guess I'll take steps to prevent that. ... Now that you can't do that anymore, this is what I'm still offering."
Parson: "Oops."

Of course, Parson is too smart to give away his plan in advance. Unfortunately, that pretty much limits his options to:
Parson: "... Attack!"

Precisely the point I've been trying to get across, thank you very much. Hamster's not a diplomacy genius. He's a tactical genius. Thus he uses parleys as just another strategic advantage to position his troops for the killing blow.

Trying to go for actual negotiations would be a big mistake for Hamster, because his main advantage is being able to come out with unhortodox strategies to punch his enemies in ways they couldn't expect. Thus he can't really corner an enemy into a surrendering position unless he reveals his master plans, in wich case he loses his main advantage.

For example in Book 1 this did not happen
Ansom: Want do discuss surrender terms?
Hamster: Give us good surrendering conditions!
Ansom: Or you do what...?
Hamster: I'll call you to fake parley with my foolmancer minion and then make a tri-mancer link to blow up the city!
Ansom: Oh, that would've been pretty shrewd, I admit. But now that you've revealed your plans I can get myself to safety while crushing you with expendable troops. Sucker!
Hamster:BOOP!

Instead what hapened was
Ansom: Want do discuss surrender terms?
Hamster: Oh woe me, I barely have any troops to defend myself, Jetstone troops alone would be enough to crush me, but luckily you'll send everybody in so I can surrender to my secret allies!
Ansom: You dare to mock me? Send in only Jetstone's troops!
Hamster:hehehe, sucker!


Ansom used a parley to bait Ansom in wasting his troops.

[Oberon]

This seems to be the sticking point in our discussion. I feel, for reasons which I have detailed at length several times already, that the urgency was easily apparent, and should have been especially apparent to the character who is supposed to be a smart diplomat. You disagree. That's fine, but I don't see either of us changing our minds on the matter. I find the evidence to be quite clear in support of my position, you find it to be equally clear in support of your own. I'll be happy to agree to disagree and let it drop.

Yes...it does seem to be the sticking point. I just do not see any need for urgency or speed on Trams part - yes, the exploit is there [...]

*sigh* Yes, it is clearly a sticking point. Because no matter how many times I say that the exploits are not at all a factor, you will continue to claim that they are the key factor. How can we hold a conversation when you always fail to accept the precepts of the opposite position, and always insist on assigning your own false concepts to the opposing position? The exploits are irrelevant!