Book 2 – Page 50

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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Sieggy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:53 pm

Excuse me, but Charlie just showed that with the ARKENDISH (ya know, 'unmatched Thinkamancer abilities') a link can be forged. And Trem can SEE the arkenpliers in the air above the city. If all of a sudden he saw Jack & Wanda doing some kind of mojo together with the 'Pliers, then he has a justification for suspicion. Lacking that, c'mon, these arguments are approaching religious disputation levels.

Jeeeeezus, Rob, PLEASE post another page so these fanatics have something ELSE to carry on about!!!!! (maybe if you have a panel with Trem drooling idiotically, it'll make people happy!) Gawd, I would hate to go to a movie with some of you . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Ditto » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:20 pm

I do enjoy giggling at arguments along those lines. 'Trimancer links could be anywhere! Kill it with fire!' Especially when GK just got hosed by Kingworld... expecting that they had a superweapon in their back pocket they simply forgot to use all afternoon is pretty ridiculous.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby justamessenger » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:20 pm

Sieggy wrote: Jeeeeezus, Rob, PLEASE post another page so these fanatics have something ELSE to carry on about!!!!! (maybe if you have a panel with Trem drooling idiotically, it'll make people happy!) Gawd, I would hate to go to a movie with some of you . . .


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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Sylvan » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:49 pm

Sieggy wrote:Excuse me, but Charlie just showed that with the ARKENDISH (ya know, 'unmatched Thinkamancer abilities') a link can be forged. And Trem can SEE the arkenpliers in the air above the city. If all of a sudden he saw Jack & Wanda doing some kind of mojo together with the 'Pliers, then he has a justification for suspicion. Lacking that, c'mon, these arguments are approaching religious disputation levels.


oslecamo2 wrote:Except that:
-GK has at least two mancers deployed, and Charlie just demonstrated how they can be linked at long-range by a thinkmancer for devastating effects. Thus GK's forces could use all the extra time to find some new tri-mancer combo to turn the tide. Not to mention the possibility of yet more foolmancy tricks covering extra casters.

Really, Trems just saw Charlie pull out KW out of a single turnmancer's ass on the hex. GK has at least two mancers and one arkentool. He doesn't know what possible combos they could pull out, so he shoul've played it safe and at least shot down the witch with the hax artifact before anything else. Wich would've implied shooting everything on the air down probably just to make it safe.


To people who keep arguing that JS should be wary of a tri-mancer link from GKs two flying casters in Spacerock, I would like to say.... Have you noticed that linked casters all look very, very similar? And yeah, in one of those links Vanna throws off her robe...... but she is released from the link immediately after the turn starts, i.e. after the spell she took off her robe to cast goes into effect.

Now, we have one exception to this, which is Misty. Now, Parson didn't cause her to break her link when he first starting talking to her, but looking back it at I think that was because he first started asking her about her function (Oh hey, can you fire up the table, I need to move some dwagons) at night, off of their turn. This totally confused the hell out of her, but she didn't even have to be more than just "the Lookamancer" to say "Uh, what the hell lord, those dwagons can't move at night. It isn't our turn." As opposed to Vanna, who Slately was asking personal questions about her former ruler.

Tramennis has also probably seen, or heard reports of, GKs riders restacking, the commanders grouping together (to discuss strategy as we saw in a Jack and Wanda text update), and dispelling the "foghat" to come up to parlay. I doubt linked casters could be doing this. Would you want your attuned wielder of the Arkenpliers to be linked at long range, especially when she likely doesn't have much of a rapport with, say.... anyone? I wouldn't want mine, but you may have convincing arguments.

Also, the beginning of Misty being "Misty" and not some background figure.. For those who are interested on refreshers.

Though come to think of it, it would be awesome if Jack and Wanda could link with Maggie and make an enemy think half of their troops had turned into superuncroaked or whatever you call them, and then they all fight each other to the death. Everyone who makes their spot check just sees all of their buddies killing each other and everything.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:01 am

Kyrt wrote:
Oberon wrote:Trem's holding of the idiot ball has absolutely nothing to do with Parson using rules in a different and innovative manner, and everything to do with having utterly failed to do what a smart diplomat is supposed to be able to do: Communicate his intentions to his opponent.

I don't think you or anyone else has been able to show a mechanic whereby Tram could actually do this with a reasonable chance of success.
Well that's just not true. What has happened is that plenty of other options have been proposed, and you have just decided that they all would have failed.
How about this "how it really happened" followed by a just slightly different hypothetical, please tell me how it would have failed miserably:
How it Really Happened wrote:
Maggie wrote:A dictate from Jetstone, Lord. Our forces in the airspace are ordered away from the tower. As conditions to formal parley, all foolamancy must be dispelled, and our forces must assemble over the garrison, within range of their archers and casters.
Parson wrote:Oh, no. No, we couldn't be that lucky
Maggie wrote:Lord?
Parson wrote:Do it. Have Wanda comply, to the letter.

And now with a tiny little twist of smart diplomacy. I'll accept "lucky diplomacy", but this path does demonstrate Tram getting to the point and (hypothetically) accomplishing something):
Hypothetical wrote:
Maggie wrote:A dictate from Jetstone, Lord. Our forces in the airspace are ordered away from the tower. As conditions to formal parley, all foolamancy must be dispelled, our forces must assemble over the garrison, within range of their archers and casters, and you must open a thinkagram to Jetstone Chief Warlord Trammenous to discuss terms of an alliance with Jetstone.
Parson wrote:Oh, no. No, we couldn't be that lucky
Maggie wrote:Lord?
Parson wrote:Do it. Have Wanda comply, to the letter. And open that thinkagram to Trammenous.
Now, we know that Parson is willing to comply, to the letter, as it gives him better positioning for his attack, and that this compliance will in this case include a direct conversation with Tram. We also know that Parson is well aware that GK needs to turn to expansion by alliance over conquest. And we know that Tram wanted an alliance with GK. The single impediment I see at this point is Parson's intelligence informing him that Royals only parley to offer insults and then attack. So the next step is for Tram to not open his negotiations with insults, and I really cannot see Parson initiating an attack while they are conversing. It doesn't seem to fit his personality, his desire to avoid bloodshed, his previously stated acknowledgment that GK needed alliances, Parson's prior use of contact with the enemy as a means to learn something from the discussion and possibly engage in "psyops", or Parson's "smart gamer" capabilities to turn a bad looking situation into a good one. A decent list of reasons why Parson would continue to talk to Tram as long as those discussions looked as though they had a chance of being productive. At that point all that remains is for agreeable terms to be arrived at. I won't claim that this was inevitable, but if negotiations broke down at this point I wouldn't be calling Tram an idiot ball holder. He would have proven that he was capable of at least avoiding the obvious misstep of beginning a parley with the typical insults which anyone on Erfworld would assume would be followed by attack. He would have gotten a chance to actually discuss terms. If terms were arrived at, he would have proven that he was a smart diplomat. If terms were not able to be arrived at, he still would have acted in a much more diplomatic manner than he did with Ossomer. Win, win, even if he still loses in the end.

But now I'll break out the popcorn and await your brilliant insight as to why this hypothetical situation was obviously doomed to failure from the start and had zero chance of success.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:18 am

kyrt wrote:And is a Royal who have a reputation of holding parleys simply to run their opponents noses into their defeat. Parson knows this. Tram knows this. Why should Parson take a call only to have GKs defeat rubbed in? Why would he believe Tram if he says otherwise? Tranm held all the cards, but he still needed to get Parson to the table.


Now we need to look at this from Tram's POV.. so what you're saying is, that the enemy warlord, facing the destruction of his most valuable units, would not answer a call in which he could try to strike a deal to get his units back? GK is a very rich and powerful side - everyone knows this. It's entirely likely that poor, optionless Parson might take the call and offer to purchase Wanda's safety with a million shmuckers. It's entirely likely that poor optionless Parson might himself suggest a non-aggression pact. You know, GK's already offered alliance once, they might offer it again, and now you have his toys, the terms will be much more agreeable.

In short, from Tram's POV, Parson needs to talk to Tramennis regardless of what he thinks will be said. (Which then brings us to what Tramennis' reaction should have been when Ossomer arrived, but again I'll put that to one side until we can at least agree on the first point.)

Another point on this: You say Jetstone risk losing face if Parson (seemingly) stupidly did not answer the call, but imagine the following scenario:

Maggie: A thinkagram from Prince Tramennis for you, Lord Hamster, shall I connect?
Parson: Pfft, no. Send in Ossomer, I'm not listening to his garbage.
...
Maggie: A thinkagram from Ossomer; he says Tramennis wishes to forge a non-aggression pact, and is willing to release at least most of the units. He is however, greatly annoyed that you declined his call.

I see no loss of position here. In fact, Tramennis has a bit more moral highground. Also please remember that this is all from Tramennis' POV, so although WE know it wouldn't happen this way, this is a completely reasonable thought process for Tramennis to have.

So there is no reason why Tram should be afraid of thinkagramming Parson, certainly not to the point where it isn't even worth trying.

kyrt wrote:As it is, Trams operation did get him to the point where he asked for that direct link. So....that did work. Ossomer very likely would have arranged the meeting that way, JS wouldn't have had to show how eager it was for a deal and it still held the full value of its hostages. Would Parson accept that call? From one of his own warlords? Someone probably would have answered it.


"Warlord? It's Ossomer. Prince Tramennis wants to talk to you."
"Oh, yeah, about what?"
"Well he didn't say, but I think he just tried to turn me..."

If you are correct in saying Parson could not be expected to answer the call in the first instance, he certainly could not be expected to answer it now. If you do indeed feel that Parson would accept a call at this point, then you must also agree that he would accept a call beforehand, since nothing was said that has changed the relationship between the two sides for the better.

Hiai wrote:You guys need to start reading OTHER things once in awhile or something. Nerdrage arguments are even more boring and trite than biker bar fights, I swear.


I dunno about that, I think analysing the characters and the situations they are in is very interesting. Plus, I think pulling apart the story, characters, plot, mechanics and so on and looking at them so seriously is possibly the highest compliment you could pay the author. If this story wasn't so involved, it wouldn't be worth it, but Erfworld has a very real sense of depth, and exploring those depths is not only interesting in itself, but also doing the story justice.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:58 am

Smoker wrote:I dunno about that, I think analysing the characters and the situations they are in is very interesting. Plus, I think pulling apart the story, characters, plot, mechanics and so on and looking at them so seriously is possibly the highest compliment you could pay the author. If this story wasn't so involved, it wouldn't be worth it, but Erfworld has a very real sense of depth, and exploring those depths is not only interesting in itself, but also doing the story justice.
My feelings exactly. If I thought the story sucked, I wouldn't be here. I enjoy the deconstruction, and some of the witty repartee of some of the other forum members. Including those I have disagreed with on things in the past. I haven't kept track, but I think that aside from Ace/PA and that one guy with 2 posts who joined specifically to call me a cock (in both of those posts :P and who I figured was a sock and just ignored) I may have had lengthy debates both on the same side and on the opposite side of many of the regulars. Fun!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby GaryThunder » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:18 am

Tramennis had no reason, no reason at all, to think that time was a factor. For all Tramennis knew, he could have messed around with Ossomer for a solid hour before leisurely getting around to getting Parson on the horn. These sort of parley negotiations take place without Thinkagrams all the time - the initial meeting at Expository Bridge, for instance. Yes, Ansom was CWL, but everyone knows he's Wanda's puppet and she didn't show up. Should Ossomer have demanded that Wanda come over or that a Thinkagram be sent to Stanley before he was willing to talk to Ansom?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:53 am

GaryThunder wrote:Tramennis had no reason, no reason at all, to think that time was a factor. For all Tramennis knew, he could have messed around with Ossomer for a solid hour before leisurely getting around to getting Parson on the horn.

Time being a factor is not the key point in why a thinkagram should have been sent. Its more to do in attending to the important tasks first. Talking to Ossomer is not important, because:

a) He couldn't possibly be expected to have the authority to make an alliance.
b) His appearance is actually a good indicator that something is wrong (see below).
c) Any information that could possibly be gained from Ossomer can be gained later, as Tramennis believes he will either obtain Ossomer through a bargain with GK, or can capture him when he destroys the airforce.

GaryThunder wrote:These sort of parley negotiations take place without Thinkagrams all the time - the initial meeting at Expository Bridge, for instance. Yes, Ansom was CWL, but everyone knows he's Wanda's puppet and she didn't show up. Should Ossomer have demanded that Wanda come over or that a Thinkagram be sent to Stanley before he was willing to talk to Ansom?

Nobody knew that Ansom was a puppet - not even Ansom, until he threatened to dob on Wanda and she forbade him. So talking with the CWL directly, as they were, was absolutely the correct thing to do.

In fact, Queen Bea herself, and her CWL met Cruz and Ansom at the hex boundary to discuss parley. Queen Bea even noted that it wasn't done over thinkagram.
Summer Updates wrote:As Gobwin Knob was ending turn, word came that the enemy was seeking a parley, not by Thinkagram, but at the hex boundary at the head of their column. Our messenger reported that the request was made by my daughter, at which I very nearly disbanded him.

I rode there personally, taking a small group of heavy hollas, two warlord advisors, and K.C., my Chief Warlord. The hex boundary lay across the main road, and the Princess was waiting there to speak to me.

She wore black livery, adorned with a white skull and pink flower crest. At her back stood maximum stacks of heavy units and siege, including many I recognized as former Unaroyal units. There also stood the Chief Warlord of Gobwin Knob. I knew his face. I had known him as Slately's son, Ansom.


Also note Ansom, when he was CWL of Jetstone taking the initiative to ally with Charlie (through a contract that looks suspiciously like a thinkagram, no less!)

Now there was that time that Jillian feigned a Parley with Jittari, but please note here that Duncan does not lower his sword - he's suspicious that Jillian would discuss terms with him. This fits the evidence well.
Summer Updates wrote:He scowled at her. "If you have terms, I will hear them," he declared, raising his sword, "but we stand ready to fight!"


Nowhere can I recall an alliance even being discussed with any units who are lower ranking than CWL.

So anyway, this backs up two points:
One - Tramennis should have spoken directly to the CWL of GK - and a thinkagram is a standard and effective method of doing so.
Two - Tramennis should have noted that, when he wasn't speaking to the CWL of GK, something might be amiss - at the very least he might have concluded that GK had given up on Parley as a viable option, and efforts should be taken to rectify that opinion, rather than re-enforce it with witty banter.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby oslecamo2 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:27 am

Sieggy wrote:Excuse me, but Charlie just showed that with the ARKENDISH (ya know, 'unmatched Thinkamancer abilities') a link can be forged. And Trem can SEE the arkenpliers in the air above the city. If all of a sudden he saw Jack & Wanda doing some kind of mojo together with the 'Pliers, then he has a justification for suspicion. Lacking that, c'mon, these arguments are approaching religious disputation levels.

Sylvan wrote:Tramennis has also probably seen, or heard reports of, GKs riders restacking, the commanders grouping together (to discuss strategy as we saw in a Jack and Wanda text update), and dispelling the "foghat" to come up to parlay. I doubt linked casters could be doing this.

You both seem to be ignoring in purpose that GK has a foolmancer, and Trems knows it. Jetstone can't really trust their eyes. Jack just made a high level warlord think he was one of his own units at point-blank range. So yes, by all means they could be pulling some super-ritual and Jetstone only sees them loofing around.

Sylvan wrote:Would you want your attuned wielder of the Arkenpliers to be linked at long range, especially when she likely doesn't have much of a rapport with, say.... anyone? I wouldn't want mine, but you may have convincing arguments.

1-She was already linked before for devastating effects.
2-If I'm willing to tell her to skydive whitout a parachute, then hell yes I'm willing to risk some magic!

Ditto wrote:I do enjoy giggling at arguments along those lines. 'Trimancer links could be anywhere! Kill it with fire!' Especially when GK just got hosed by Kingworld... expecting that they had a superweapon in their back pocket they simply forgot to use all afternoon is pretty ridiculous.

Funny, that's precisely what the Coalition tought before they got a volcano blowing up on their face after using the Dance-Dance Revolution trick! ;)

GK had been fighting bitterly and now were badly cornered and outnumbered. If they had a superweapon, they would've surely used it by now, right? Wrong. You save your super weapons to the last possible moment, not as your first shot, specially when said superweapons have drawbacks (like blowing up your own forces, or telling your key element to drop from the skies).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Kyrt » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:15 am

oslecamo2 wrote:-GK has at least two mancers deployed, and Charlie just demonstrated how they can be linked at long-range by a thinkmancer for devastating effects.


Can a Thinkamancer form links across hex/zone boundaries off turn? When that Thinakmancer is is a hex with no enemies present and therefore can't use the "Can cast off turn if enemies in same hex" rule?

-Even whitout it, GK still has an attuned arkentool. Those things are hax and have all kind of mysterious powers (to the point not even the wielder is very sure what they can do). Do they really want to wait to see if Wanda figures out how to shoot death beams from her pliers or something else new and nasty?p


If she hasn't figured out how to do so in 70+ turns?

Really, Trems just saw Charlie pull out KW out of a single turnmancer's ass on the hex.


That very sentence tells us he knew it was a dual linkup so it wasn't a singe Turnamancer.

He doesn't know what possible combos they could pull out, so he shoul've played it safe and at least shot down the witch with the hax artifact before anything else. Wich would've implied shooting everything on the air down probably just to make it safe.


Yes. Which would destroy his chances at parley and leave SR in a very bad position. The in hex JS forces can't attack or move. They have no Thinkamancer and so can't link and there would still be zone boundaries anyway. Remote forces aren't part of this battle.

There was Jack's "We can make more meat shields than they have arrows and magic!" plan, wich would have let Wanda escape to fight another day. Hamster however has no interest to run away. He's going for Jetstone's throat.


No...it MAY have let Wanda escape. Jack wasn't sure it would have worked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Kyrt » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:42 am

Oberon wrote:How about this "how it really happened" followed by a just slightly different hypothetical, please tell me how it would have failed miserably


Hypothetical wrote: And open that thinkagram to Trammenous.


How does that solve Trams problem?

You've jsut speculated that direct contact will work because Trams aksed it for it.

Trams issue is more complex...he can ask for a direct link - via Archon if nothing else. But because he is actually planning to bargain in earnest, he doesn't want to weaken his bargaining hand unnecessarily. JS has its problems after all and he'll want to get the best deal for JS than he can.

However...if he directly contacts Parson, via Archon or whatever, as you propose....what are the odds Parson will actually take the call? Parson has no reason to do so. As far as Tram is aware, Parson knows that his strike force is effectively dead regardless of what happens here. Tram can't even be sure hes watching.

At the same time, if he appears too eager to communicate with Parson directly to parley, he shows his bargaining hand a little. Not only that, but Parsons till has no reason to beleive he will be bargaining in good faith.

And, even were that what Tram actually wanted, asking for discussion of the same alliance JS rejected earlier but this time when they are "winning" is a sure sign that either a: this is a sham or b: JS must be in real trouble. Askign for anything would imply a need to parley and bargain that weakens Trams hand.

Now, we know that Parson is willing to comply, to the letter, as it gives him better positioning for his attack, and that this compliance will in this case include a direct conversation with Tram.


Tram does not. Nor can he be sure GK won't send someone over anyway. Nor can he really be sure GK will comply. GK would still move the stacks...but Tram won't get to dictate who GK will send in as an emissary.

The single impediment I see at this point is Parson's intelligence informing him that Royals only parley to offer insults and then attack.


You just see ONE impediment? First, your approach has done nothing to ccommunicate this is bein done in earnest. Second, it either communicates that this is a sham or that JS has a real need and that makes

So the next step is for Tram to not open his negotiations with insults


Good thing he didn't.

I really cannot see Parson initiating an attack while they are conversing.


I can. Would he do so in this case...when he's been told Royal parleys are effectively shams? Probably.

He would have proven that he was capable of at least avoiding the obvious misstep of beginning a parley with the typical insults which anyone on Erfworld would assume would be followed by attack.


Why keep on this "insult" angle? Tram effectively said hello, asked Ossomer to turn, threw Ossomers own insults about Stanley back at him, asked about Parson and then demanded to be put through to him. The only reason he'd need to bypass any of those 30 or seconds would be if there was a real time pressure on him.

But now I'll break out the popcorn and await your brilliant insight as to why this hypothetical situation was obviously doomed to failure from the start and had zero chance of success.


Essentially...because it did nothing to tell Parson this was planned to be an earnest bargaining session and weakened Trams position in any future talks. Effectively, you've done nothing to ensure Parson wouldn't view that call as part of a sham parley.

Your direct approach MAY have worked, but it does nothing to communicate Trams sincerity, doesn't encourage Parson to actually answer, weakenes JS bargaining hand by letting Parson know they want something and its only advantage is that it requests a direct meeting before parley begins saving Tram a few minutes. Trams actual meeting with Ossomer gave him the chance to problem Ossomer and try to turn him and allowed him to demand a meeting with Parson on his terms without weakening his bargaining position.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Kyrt » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:05 am

Smoker wrote:Now we need to look at this from Tram's POV.. so what you're saying is, that the enemy warlord, facing the destruction of his most valuable units, would not answer a call in which he could try to strike a deal to get his units back?


When the reputation of such talks is simply a chance for the Royals to jutify their slaughter? Or to emphasise their victory? In other words, that the aprley was effectively a sham and that the GK force was doomed no matter what he said or did?

Why should he take part? He isn't aware Tram wants to bargain in earnest, JS will move to wipe out his forces anyway.

In short, from Tram's POV, Parson needs to talk to Tramennis regardless of what he thinks will be said.


No...Parson needs to talk to Tram to save his troops only if he thinks there is a chance that such talks would have chance to save them. The Royals rep is such that that isn't the case...the Royals rep here is such that GKs strike force is dead no matter what he says or does.

Another point on this: You say Jetstone risk losing face


No...I said that Tram risks his bargaining position by giving up information on how badly he wants this non-aggression pact. He can't afford to be a spendthrift.

Also please remember that this is all from Tramennis' POV, so although WE know it wouldn't happen this way, this is a completely reasonable thought process for Tramennis to have.


Parson: A non-aggression pact? When he's winning? No...its part of the same sham. And if he really wants it...he'll try again.

Trams actual conversation got him to demand the same setup but without revealing his position and need. Why take the risk on the former if there was no need?

So there is no reason why Tram should be afraid of thinkagramming Parson, certainly not to the point where it isn't even worth trying.


No...that depends on your assessment of the facts as Tram knows them. He knows the Royals rep. He knows Parson is CWL. He knows/can assume Parson is expecting his entire force to be wiped out whatever he says or does. He can surmise Parson won't want to be involved with such a humiliation. But at the same time, he needs to be put through to Parson because Parson and Stanley are the only two people who can authorise what he wants from them.

How best to ensure that? What does the direct apprach gain that the approach via Ossomer does not? Its potentially quicker. He's under no time pressure as the only danger the GK force poses is via the yellows. Other than that, GK is limited to off turn actions.

If you are correct in saying Parson could not be expected to answer the call in the first instance, he certainly could not be expected to answer it now. If you do indeed feel that Parson would accept a call at this point, then you must also agree that he would accept a call beforehand, since nothing was said that has changed the relationship between the two sides for the better.


Its possible that he would accept a call from Tram before the Parley officially began. Its probable that he would accept a call from his Warlord after it began. (discounting exploit).

The question is which one is better from Trams pov? At the end of the day, even were everythign else equal, the direct approach is better if, and only if, it has some advantage or benefit for Tram. What does he gain by making use of it? He doesn't get to present his case without Parson accepting and this approach does nothing to skew that event. It saves time but Tram is under no time pressure - unless you count the possibility of a yellow attack. It removes any possibility of pumping whatever Warlord they sent to discuss terms for info.

What does it gain him that the approach he took doesn't?

I dunno about that, I think analysing the characters and the situations they are in is very interesting. Plus, I think pulling apart the story, characters, plot, mechanics and so on and looking at them so seriously is possibly the highest compliment you could pay the author. If this story wasn't so involved, it wouldn't be worth it, but Erfworld has a very real sense of depth, and exploring those depths is not only interesting in itself, but also doing the story justice.


QFT - if we didn't care, we wouldn't argue/discuss
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Kyrt » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:37 am

Smoker wrote:Nowhere can I recall an alliance even being discussed with any units who are lower ranking than CWL.


You won't. Alliance does require more than a warlord to agree to. However, Tram wasn't seeking alliance so he didn't need to sepak with Stanley. He was seeking/considering a non-aggression pact- which likely still requires input from him, or at least Parson/CWL.

So anyway, this backs up two points:
One - Tramennis should have spoken directly to the CWL of GK - and a thinkagram is a standard and effective method of doing so.


A simple way of doing so. Which still leaves the problem of how to ensure Parson actually listens and responds to it when he "knows" the parley is a sham. A sit is, you'll note that after a few second of banter with Ossomer, Tram deos request that link up.

Two - Tramennis should have noted that, when he wasn't speaking to the CWL of GK, something might be amiss - at the very least he might have concluded that GK had given up on Parley as a viable option, and efforts should be taken to rectify that opinion, rather than re-enforce it with witty banter.
[/quote]

Parley was never a viable option for GK, but they also couldn't attack/move across zone boundaries either.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Raza » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:53 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Raza wrote:Dwagons look badass when fighting while on their feet.


Well, their track record so far is pretty abismal so anything is an improvement.

*grabs pop-corn*

Yeah, agreed. Dwagons have been suffering from the worf effect somewhat, and neither their flying forms nor the stretchy gummy-dwagon depictions in Gobwin Knob's new war room have marked them as overly imposing. I've even wondered somewhat how well Stanley could've really recognised them in Parson's description early in book one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:13 pm

I still cant quite agree with the statement that having a call refused is a) likely or b) detrimental. Lets look at it this way:

If Tramennis is so convinced that Parson has given up all hope of a meaningful conversation - why is he waiting for one?

That is to say, why hasn't he disbanded all the troops in the airspace. If Parson believes so surely that nothing can be said or done to save his units, then surely disbanding them is better than letting the Jetstone units level off killing them all, and much better than letting certain units be captured.

So either Parson is:
a) Still holding out some grim hope of bargaining his way out of this, in which case he'd answer a thinkagram.
or b) he's planning some impossible move, like the dirtamancy trap, in which case speed is incredibly important.
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:21 pm

Oberon wrote:
Smoker wrote:I dunno about that, I think analysing the characters and the situations they are in is very interesting. Plus, I think pulling apart the story, characters, plot, mechanics and so on and looking at them so seriously is possibly the highest compliment you could pay the author. If this story wasn't so involved, it wouldn't be worth it, but Erfworld has a very real sense of depth, and exploring those depths is not only interesting in itself, but also doing the story justice.
My feelings exactly. If I thought the story sucked, I wouldn't be here. I enjoy the deconstruction, and some of the witty repartee of some of the other forum members. Including those I have disagreed with on things in the past. I haven't kept track, but I think that aside from Ace/PA and that one guy with 2 posts who joined specifically to call me a cock (in both of those posts :P and who I figured was a sock and just ignored) I may have had lengthy debates both on the same side and on the opposite side of many of the regulars. Fun!


And I'll third that statement. But add a caveat- few of these debates have enough substance to sustain 500 posts. The problem is that all of us end up repeating the same things again and again, in more and more ornate text walls.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Kyrt » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:05 pm

Smoker wrote:If Tramennis is so convinced that Parson has given up all hope of a meaningful conversation - why is he waiting for one?


It is likely Parson will take a call from one of his sides warlords. In essence, Tram has changed the situation from needing to persuade Parson to take a call to persuading whatever Warlord GK sends over to initiate one. If Parson still refuses the call, then Tram still has the option of pursuing talks with that warlord or simply shooting the entire force down.

That is to say, why hasn't he disbanded all the troops in the airspace. If Parson believes so surely that nothing can be said or done to save his units, then surely disbanding them is better than letting the Jetstone units level off killing them all, and much better than letting certain units be captured.
[/quote]

And will, for example, deprive him of the opportunity to cause damage back to JS when they are indeed able to attack. He can still likely cause a lot of damage after all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:34 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Hypothetical wrote: And open that thinkagram to Trammenous.
How does that solve Trams problem?

You've jsut speculated that direct contact will work because Trams aksed it for it.
Not quite. I've just stated my opinion that Tram being shown to have been successful in at least getting his opponent to the bargaining table would have gone a whole lot further towards supporting all the background chatter about what a smart diplomat he was than having him open his "negotiations" with a pile of insults leading up to having his atrium bombed and a pile of his troops killed.

It's just a relative measure of success at what he is supposed to be good at, you see. On the one hand, utter failure that sure looks like idiocy because any just popped stabber could have told you that royals only parlay to insult and then attack, and the insult must therefore be naturally presumed to be followed by the attack. Why lose your yellows without a fight? Attack! Do some damage to the enemy before you die. Tram even said it himself: "He is doing what he can, while he can." It's a shame Tram didn't think like a smart diplomat and anticipate this reaction, and then take some steps to prevent it. Steps such as those I outlined in my hypothetical. Successful or not, taking those steps would have demonstrated Tram's diplomatic thinking a lot more than what we have seen from him so far.
Kyrt wrote:However...if he directly contacts Parson, via Archon or whatever, as you propose....what are the odds Parson will actually take the call? Parson has no reason to do so.
You can say that, but I gave a pile of reasons why taking that call is very much within Parson's character. Can you give a pile of reasons why Parson wouldn't? You gave nothing meaningful about Parson's point of view, and a lot of meaningless details about Tram's point of view. Details that would all be irrelevant if he would have just asked for the thinkagram with Parson and seen what the answer was. You're reasoning is, as usual, quite circular: "Tram didn't need to ask for the thinkagram because he couldn't be certain that Parson would accept it." What? "Tram's bargaining position would have been weakened if he actually got to the bargaining table by asking for a thinkagram with Parson." What? And my favorite, because it is doubly circular: "Tram didn't need to ask for a thinkagram to expedite the bargaining because Tram can't be sure that Parson will think that he intends to bargain in good faith." That's a doozy: "Don't contact expeditiously because Parson might not think that you intend to bargain in good faith, when contacting expeditiously would have eliminated the "insult" portion of the typical "insult, then attack" playbook and have given a much stronger message about sincerity", and then there is "Don't contact expeditiously because Parson might not think that you intend to bargain in good faith. But then demand to speak to Parson twice with Ossomer the useless time waste, assuming that this approach must be seen as a sincere effort of diplomacy" And you wonder why it is called the idiot ball?

When exactly did it matter that Parson might not think that Tram wanted to bargain in good faith? In my hypothetical when Tram demanded a thinkagram with Parson, or in reality when Tram yelled at Ossomer the he would speak with Parson shortly? (Hint: The correct answer is neither.)
Kyrt wrote:Why keep on this "insult" angle? Tram effectively said hello, asked Ossomer to turn, threw Ossomers own insults about Stanley back at him, asked about Parson and then demanded to be put through to him.
And again, really? Must I cite the exect lines? They do not read as friendly greetings to a brother. They are not light hearted jesting. Tram insults Ossomers livery, try to understand that this is the equivalent of insulting the uniform of a soldier. It is fully intended as an insult, and can be expected to be taken that way by anyone it is directed at. And regardless of the context, Tram was insulting both Stanley and Parson. These are Ossomers overlord and chief warlord. This is like insulting the soldier's VP and P, or King and Queen. It is a deliberate offer of insult to people the individual you are speaking with are duty bound to honor and serve. Make no mistake, Tram was being as insulting as he possibly could be, and in that also insultingly superior "I'm using words so cleverly that you probably don't even understand that I've just insulted your ancestry back 7 generations" manner.
Kyrt wrote:Effectively, you've done nothing to ensure Parson wouldn't view that call as part of a sham parley.
Nothing to ensure it, agreed. A hypothetical cannot be held up as absolute. It didn't happen.
Kyrt wrote:Your direct approach MAY have worked, [...]
Well now! There may be hope for you after all! You have budged from your earlier position that absolutely no action Tram might have taken could have turned out any better. And you may be right, those other actions being hypothetical and all. I'd have just liked to have seen a bit more smart diplomat and a bit less prattling jester out of our smart diplomat.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:53 pm

Kyrt wrote:Can a Thinkamancer form links across hex/zone boundaries off turn? When that Thinakmancer is is a hex with no enemies present and therefore can't use the "Can cast off turn if enemies in same hex" rule?
We do not know. Charlie is the single being known to be able to link across a range, and he isn't talking about establishing that link on or off-turn. Given that colocated trimancers can indeed link up off-turn, I'd suspect that yes, thinkamancers who are capable of linking at a range can do so off-turn. Thinkamancy is known to be one of the great many exceptions to the "limitations to off turn actions" rule.
Kyrt wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:-Even whitout it, GK still has an attuned arkentool. Those things are hax and have all kind of mysterious powers (to the point not even the wielder is very sure what they can do). Do they really want to wait to see if Wanda figures out how to shoot death beams from her pliers or something else new and nasty?p
If she hasn't figured out how to do so in 70+ turns?
You are forgetting the smoking Chekhov's Gun: Stanley learned to turn 20% of walnuts into pigeons by using the 'hammer to crack them. He also spotted the 'hammer doing the opposite when he was fighting o'rlys. Wanda could in a similar fashion learn how to summon with the 'pliers pigeons who shoot death beams from their eyes. Regardless of the odds of that happening, there is a precedent for arkentool wielders learning new tricks. This can be expected to be a part of this complete breakfast in the future. My own favorite pet theory is that Parson obtains the 4th arkentool, and it is he who learns the most meaningful additional powers of that Tool.
Last edited by Oberon on Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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