Book 2 – Text Updates 038

[oslecamo2]

They would have one now. Haggar is dead and they lost a good chunk of infantry while Jetstone barely took losses, so they aren't really in position to threaten Slatley anymore.

Not really. Ossomer mentioned when we first met him that he was bluffing when he bullied them into alliance in the first place, and Tramennis recently mentioned that even without the 'pliers, Gobwin Knob could still crush the coalition. Given that Sammy just got killed fighting Jetstone's war, it wouldn't surprise me if King Dickie decided that attacking Jetstone (particularly as part of a Haggar-Gobwin Knob alliance) was in his kingdom's interests.

I'm kinda tired of that argument. Trems claiming that GK would still crush them was a bluff so he could try to talk with fascinating Hamster. Even king Slatley can see that.

Kinda irrelevant since GK will finish Jetstone now, but still, Charlie's plan did weaken Haggar considerably while softening up GK's forces at the cost of a single archon. Turning your enemies against each other is a sign of a good manipulator.

True, but at the cost of his veil of neutrality, and as you alluded to, it didn't work. His secret's out and he has nothing to show for it. Which is perfectly understandable - no one wins every time - but just goes to prove my point.

What matters it's who wins last, as Hamster demonstrated in book 1. Charlie had the upper hand for a moment, Hamster's volcano nuke trumped it.

He told Jillian that she needed to go back despite, as pointed out by her CWL, that Trems should have more than enough firepower to wipe them all out. Charlie knows that Hamster can pull something out, despite his desesperate-looking situation. And the only way he could know that it's because he intercepted Maggie's message, since it's a completely crazy tactic not anyone else in Erfworld would remember.

Plus he was unreachable while Maggie relayed the orders, strongly sugesting he was focused intercepting her and thus unable to send his usual thinkgrams.

Precisely, circumstantial evidence, though admittedly coincidences are significantly less likely in a fictional narrative.

And I have a theory on how Charlie knows what Parson's about to do. He doesn't. I could only come up with two explanations for why he wouldn't just tell Jillian and Tramennis what Parson's about to do. One is that he wants GK to win, because he's got some master plan that doesn't make sense to me going on. Obviously, given what I'm arguing here, I'm disinclined to accept that explanation. The other is that he's bluffing. He doesn't have any idea what Parson's about to do, he just figures that he's brilliant enough to pull something out of his sleeve and wants everyone to play it safe.

Third explanation: telling Jetstone Hamster's actual battle plan would reveal his ability to listen to other people's thinkgrams. Charlie already gave away his neutrality. He really doesn't want to reveal yet more of his secrets.

Admittedly, you'd think he'd have tried a little harder to convince Jillian to turn back if that were the case.

Jillian proved time and time again to be an unreliable ally at best. She was willing to just team up with Wanda and burn down Jetstone, almost attacked Transylvito, and then ditched the whole battle plan in order to capture her boy-toy and leave the place. Not worth the time arguing for really.

On the other hand, Charlie loves "take it or leave it" deals. Back in Book 1 when Ansom was being swarmed by uncroacked and complained about Charlie's terms, he simply replied that by all means, Ansom could refuse and let himself be killed.

So in this situation he probably tought he could "break" Jillian by threatening to abandon her, and expected her to come back crying for mercy. Except again, this is "salad forks make great eye poppers!" Jillian, so she really doesn't care that whitout Charlie's support she can't afford her mancer and her own giant army may rebell against her while she's out. And Charlie can't go back at her whitout showing weakness and desesperation.

[Tiger]

They would have one now. Haggar is dead and they lost a good chunk of infantry while Jetstone barely took losses, so they aren't really in position to threaten Slatley anymore.

Not really. Ossomer mentioned when we first met him that he was bluffing when he bullied them into alliance in the first place, and Tramennis recently mentioned that even without the 'pliers, Gobwin Knob could still crush the coalition. Given that Sammy just got killed fighting Jetstone's war, it wouldn't surprise me if King Dickie decided that attacking Jetstone (particularly as part of a Haggar-Gobwin Knob alliance) was in his kingdom's interests.

I'm kinda tired of that argument. Trems claiming that GK would still crush them was a bluff so he could try to talk with fascinating Hamster. Even king Slatley can see that.

Uh. Really? I thought that was rather clearly sardonic.

What matters it's who wins last, as Hamster demonstrated in book 1. Charlie had the upper hand for a moment, Hamster's volcano nuke trumped it.

True, true, and possibly everything I'm saying about what Charlie's done in Book 2 is erroneous. We haven't seen its conclusion yet, after all.

Third explanation: telling Jetstone Hamster's actual battle plan would reveal his ability to listen to other people's thinkgrams. Charlie already gave away his neutrality. He really doesn't want to reveal yet more of his secrets.

Plausible. I would counter with the fact that Charlie could easily get around that by phrasing it "Hey, isn't it possible they could..." instead of "Here's what the enemy is planning to do." They (Tramennis in particular) might be suspicious, sure, but that's half the point of maintaining tight secrecy - so that they only get suspicious when you let things slip.

Jillian proved time and time again to be an unreliable ally at best. She was willing to just team up with Wanda and burn down Jetstone, almost attacked Transylvito, and then ditched the whole battle plan in order to capture her boy-toy and leave the place. Not worth the time arguing for really.

Doesn't mean he couldn't have broken off the deal after she did what he wanted.

On the other hand, Charlie loves "take it or leave it" deals. Back in Book 1 when Ansom was being swarmed by uncroacked and complained about Charlie's terms, he simply replied that by all means, Ansom could refuse and let himself be killed.

So in this situation he probably tought he could "break" Jillian by threatening to abandon her, and expected her to come back crying for mercy. Except again, this is "salad forks make great eye poppers!" Jillian, so she really doesn't care that whitout Charlie's support she can't afford her mancer and her own giant army may rebell against her while she's out. And Charlie can't go back at her whitout showing weakness and desesperation.

I'm rather suspicious of the suggestion that Charlie wasn't aware of all those things about Jillian. It's probably why he approached her in the first place, and if not he'd certainly have figured it out in the intervening time. The most likely explanation is that he simply didn't care. And Jillian was going to go back until Duncan talked her out of it, but that's neither here nor there.

Also, "without showing weakness and desperation"? You may want to re-read his first conversation with Jillian. He was all about weakness and desperation there.

[Sylvan]

So, I don't have a ton of time for tinfoilery before work, but who wants to bet that these minds that "think alike" spend a lot of their time linked?

I know I've mentioned before that I find it likely that 4+ mancer links are possible (with multiple thinkamancers managing the link). If Thinkamancers in general don't want to let on to their rulers that they can manipulate a whole host of stats for whatever reason I also find it likely that they wouldn't let them know about links that could say, re-make the terain, or end a turn, especially if these links only kept getting more powerful/dangerous.

More when I don't have to do that pesky "earning the upkeep" thing.

[oslecamo2]

Uh. Really? I thought that was rather clearly sardonic.

Check back the text update when Trems first returns to Jetstone. He's all confident that they're gonna steamroll GK from now on. It's just that he heard of the perfect warlord that makes even Charlie afraid, and thus he his diplomatic side just can't resist talking to him (and geting a deal out of it). Just like Jillian couldn't resist a good fight back in book 1.

Third explanation: telling Jetstone Hamster's actual battle plan would reveal his ability to listen to other people's thinkgrams. Charlie already gave away his neutrality. He really doesn't want to reveal yet more of his secrets.

Plausible. I would counter with the fact that Charlie could easily get around that by phrasing it "Hey, isn't it possible they could..." instead of "Here's what the enemy is planning to do." They (Tramennis in particular) might be suspicious, sure, but that's half the point of maintaining tight secrecy - so that they only get suspicious when you let things slip.

Maybe Trems couldn't put the pieces togheter, but his mancers would, and they would spread the word to the Magic Kingdom.

Jillian proved time and time again to be an unreliable ally at best. She was willing to just team up with Wanda and burn down Jetstone, almost attacked Transylvito, and then ditched the whole battle plan in order to capture her boy-toy and leave the place. Not worth the time arguing for really.

Doesn't mean he couldn't have broken off the deal after she did what he wanted.

And what could he offer her that would make her turn back exactly? She already had what she wanted.

On the other hand, Charlie loves "take it or leave it" deals. Back in Book 1 when Ansom was being swarmed by uncroacked and complained about Charlie's terms, he simply replied that by all means, Ansom could refuse and let himself be killed.

So in this situation he probably tought he could "break" Jillian by threatening to abandon her, and expected her to come back crying for mercy. Except again, this is "salad forks make great eye poppers!" Jillian, so she really doesn't care that whitout Charlie's support she can't afford her mancer and her own giant army may rebell against her while she's out. And Charlie can't go back at her whitout showing weakness and desesperation.

I'm rather suspicious of the suggestion that Charlie wasn't aware of all those things about Jillian. It's probably why he approached her in the first place, and if not he'd certainly have figured it out in the intervening time. The most likely explanation is that he simply didn't care. And Jillian was going to go back until Duncan talked her out of it, but that's neither here nor there.

Actually, that's a pretty good point. Charlie's "do as I say or go bankrupt!" gambit almost worked, and Jillian almost returned, but Duncan got her with the "you're sure you're not being mind-controlled?". Even Duncan got suprised with her sudden change of mood.

[mortissimus]

OThe following facts seem relatively clear:

4. While Stanley is gone, the hobgobwins break alliance with Saline and croak him. Upon his return, Stanley retakes Gobwin Knob and reestablishes alliance with the hobgobwins. (Now, no one with first hand knowledge has commented on this, except that the hobgobwins are clearly hiding something. Ansom and the other royals assumed that Stanley arranged the death of Saline, but I don't think there's actually any textual evidence for it, just assumptions based on the timing.)

It appears likely that it happened during the conquest of FAQ, but I do not think we have anything to base that on other then plot unity. Stanley after all appears to often done missions during the reign of Saline.

Open questions are:

2. Did Stanley engineer the coup against Saline or did someone else do it while he was gone? Charlie possibly could have engineered. OTOH, Maggie might also have been able to engineer it if she was already at GK (at this point, Jack had not been captured, so she was not yet stuck in a trimancer link).

If it happened at a later point in time then you assume, then Jack or more likely Wanda could have been involved.

[Nargrakhan]

Oy... I just realized something. Thinkamacers this, Thinkamancers that...

Bunny. How much of this does she know... or for that matter, Thinkamancers on ALL sides (minus Charlie of course)?

[Radagast]

The thing I'm wondering now is, how were the Thinkamancers planning on pointing Parson in Charlie's direction? Why Stanley, of all people? (This goes for the other Perfect Warlord factions too.) Were they just waiting for someone who could and would pay for the spell? It seems more likely that they deliberately dropped it in Stanley's lap, with a high price to keep him from getting suspicious.

Stanley DOES have the Hammer too... it's not like he's a pushover, combat-wise. They just really need to figure out a way to use it safely - either name or pop an heir probably.

They'd probably need the Hammer for any direct attack on Charlie... unless they attacked via the MK, but now that likely won't be possible since everyone in the world will probably be guarding their portal rooms from now on... so, spend a hundred turns grabbing 2-3 dwagons a turn and have him lead them in, maybe with some kind of archer mounted on each one if that's possible. Charlie has what, 600 archons and some golems? You'd need the artifact bonus from the hammer to counter the bonus the Archons likely get from the Dish.

The point is, the Dish + Archons likely make any direct attack on him impossible without another artifact to counter it. So if you have the choice of any side to rope into your conspiracy, why NOT the one with the existing attuned arkentool?

[Tiger]

Check back the text update when Trems first returns to Jetstone. He's all confident that they're gonna steamroll GK from now on. It's just that he heard of the perfect warlord that makes even Charlie afraid, and thus he his diplomatic side just can't resist talking to him (and geting a deal out of it). Just like Jillian couldn't resist a good fight back in book 1.

I would be inclined to say that Tram's comment about Gobwin Knob still being able to crush the coalition is just a continuation of his thoughts from that update. Indeed, he basically reiterates what can be found in that update right before making the claim that Gobwin Knob could still prevail. And if you'll notice, it's far from an excuse just to talk to Parson. He's proposing a peace treaty on that basis. Sure, in the update you referred me to he was more inclined to just down them all, but you can't tell me you've never had an idea that you thought was good enough to set aside your previous plans. He even tells us how it came to him - he was analyzing Charlie's motives, and wondered if Charlie feared that Jetstone and Gobwin Knob would ally. One "hey, that's actually not a bad idea..." later, and here we are.

Maybe Trems couldn't put the pieces togheter, but his mancers would, and they would spread the word to the Magic Kingdom.

And why would that be? From what we've seen so far, they don't appear to be any smarter than Tram is.

And what could he offer her that would make her turn back exactly? She already had what she wanted.

I believe the original issue was why he didn't even try to persuade her. Whether or not he could have is beside the point.

[teratorn]

Bunny. How much of this does she know... or for that matter, Thinkamancers on ALL sides (minus Charlie of course)?

Bunny probably isn't one of the great minds, I think knowledge of what's going on is restricted to those. They were eager to end the trimancer link, most likely to learn what had happened, and my guess is that when they debriefed Maggie they learned about how Charlie hacked the eye-books and understood what was going on.

I'm still not convinced that they were aware of the full extent of Charlie's capabilities, Maggie was truly surprised when Charlie hacked the eye-books. And if there was something between the great minds and Maggie it was before the PWL spell, Maggie had been for a rather long time tied to Misty and Jack.

[Tiger]

It appears likely that it happened during the conquest of FAQ, but I do not think we have anything to base that on other then plot unity. Stanley after all appears to often done missions during the reign of Saline.

Since plot unity is all that we have to base that on, I don't think it's likely at all.

The flashback panel when Sizemore mentions the "special mission" shows some very distinctive mushroom-houses. We have no reason to believe there's anything like that in or on the way to Faq, especially since we've seen a number of examples of Faqian architecture and it wasn't mushroom-based.

Further, Stanley told Saline he was going out to tame dwagons when he went off to conquer Faq. That's not the sort of thing you bring a caster for, and Stanley doesn't mention having done so. Since he thought 15 dwagons would be plenty, I doubt he would have thought it worth the risk/trouble. Nothing that either Sizemore or Stanley has said indicates that Sizemore's special mission and Faq's conquering were one in the same.

[Decorus]

It seams that most people reading the update are concluding that the temple thinkamancers are anti-Charlie. All I see is that maggie believes GMtTA will keep a coded message private.

I think you underestimate the importance of a coded thinkagram. To me, it suggests that not only can Charlie hack thinkagrams, but the Thinkamancers know he can hack thinkagrams (or at least, they're worried enough about it to use codes for sensitive info) but they conceal it from everyone else, presumably because if thinkagrams were considered unreliable it would rob them of their most marketable skill.

Then there's the implication that Maggie seriously expects the leadership of her order to personally intervene in order to protect Parson (from other casters? or from agents in the MK answerable to Charlie?) even if he enters the MK in violation of its neutrality.

Poor Sizemore. Practically everyone he knows in involved in a conspiracy except him. He's starting to seem like the Ossomer of casters.

No Charlie can't hack thinkagrams there is no need to hack them every thinkamancer in existence can look at the strings and see the thinkagram. There is no hacking, because there is no need to.
Charlie also handles 90% of all thinkagrams anyway its his primary cashflow so he wouldn't need to bother hacking his own communications as any thinkagram not handled by a thinkamancer is handled by him.
Also Charlie is unlikely to be capable of reading every single thinkagram as there would be too many for him and he would have to look at each individual one its also proven that he has Archons he uses to handle
things to take the work load off of his shoulders. Then furthermore all thinkamancers know that other thinkamancers can read thinkagrams so they typically encode them.

So in order for Charlie to know what a thinkagram says:
1. He has to notice it.
2. He would have to be able to beat the encryption.

How ever for 90% of them since he is the one sending them he already knows whats in the thinkagram.

[Jallorn]

It seams that most people reading the update are concluding that the temple thinkamancers are anti-Charlie. All I see is that maggie believes GMtTA will keep a coded message private.

I think you underestimate the importance of a coded thinkagram. To me, it suggests that not only can Charlie hack thinkagrams, but the Thinkamancers know he can hack thinkagrams (or at least, they're worried enough about it to use codes for sensitive info) but they conceal it from everyone else, presumably because if thinkagrams were considered unreliable it would rob them of their most marketable skill.

Then there's the implication that Maggie seriously expects the leadership of her order to personally intervene in order to protect Parson (from other casters? or from agents in the MK answerable to Charlie?) even if he enters the MK in violation of its neutrality.

Poor Sizemore. Practically everyone he knows in involved in a conspiracy except him. He's starting to seem like the Ossomer of casters.

No Charlie can't hack thinkagrams there is no need to hack them every thinkamancer in existence can look at the strings and see the thinkagram. There is no hacking, because there is no need to.
Charlie also handles 90% of all thinkagrams anyway its his primary cashflow so he wouldn't need to bother hacking his own communications as any thinkagram not handled by a thinkamancer is handled by him.
Also Charlie is unlikely to be capable of reading every single thinkagram as there would be too many for him and he would have to look at each individual one its also proven that he has Archons he uses to handle
things to take the work load off of his shoulders. Then furthermore all thinkamancers know that other thinkamancers can read thinkagrams so they typically encode them.

So in order for Charlie to know what a thinkagram says:
1. He has to notice it.
2. He would have to be able to beat the encryption.

How ever for 90% of them since he is the one sending them he already knows whats in the thinkagram.

You have made a few logical fallacies: We have no solid evidence that Thinkamancers can decode Thinkagrams by monitoring the G-strings, only that they can interpret vibrations placed there specifically to be a message. Is it possible that by extension Thinkagrams can be interpreted through G-strings? Yes, however, it is not, at this point, something that can be considered a fact. In fact, Maggie uses a code, which could in fact be the vibrations themselves. Much like Morse Code, it could be something where you can sense the vibrations, but only if you understand the code being used can you realize even that it's a message.

Also, as far as we can tell, there is no way to code a Thinkagram itself. There is no real evidence either way, but for Thinkamancer communication, G-strings could be safer than Thinkagrams simply because of the code.

[Lamech]

Also, as far as we can tell, there is no way to code a Thinkagram itself. There is no real evidence either way, but for Thinkamancer communication, G-strings could be safer than Thinkagrams simply because of the code.

You can encode a thinkagram. Or at least put a code in a thinkagram. For example Maggie could say "b-b-a-b-a-a-b-b-a-a-b-b-b-b-a-a" and then Jack with his fancy decoder ring might be able to get "yes". If Parson understand the concept of a one-time pad, it could even be undecryptable. (Except by maybe the arkenpliers.)

[Infidel]

Wow, great update.

Her message had two things that weren't immediately clear:

PGLH = Parson Gotti, Lord Hamster
SR = SpaceRock

I think the most interesting thing though is that Maggie refers to Charlie as an "it."

Nope. "That reason called itself, "Charlie.""

A reason is sexless. It's an idea, a concept. An It. Just like a baby. "It's a girl!" "It's a boy."

And now that we know Charlie is chassing everyone's g-string. I've a new theory on his identity. Charlie is Happosai.

[atalex]

No Charlie can't hack thinkagrams there is no need to hack them every thinkamancer in existence can look at the strings and see the thinkagram. There is no hacking, because there is no need to.

That raises a provocative notion. Perhaps all Thinkamancers can eavesdrop on thinkagrams if the right criteria are met, but they conceal this fact from the rest of Erfworld because their Loyalty to the Fraternity of Thinkamancers is higher than their Loyalty to any single ruler.

[fjolnir]

They can't see a thinkagram on the strings, a message on the strings is an entirely different object and while it is connected to magic, it requires no juice to put a message onto your string, provided you can see it.

[GaryThunder]

And I have a theory on how Charlie knows what Parson's about to do. He doesn't. I could only come up with two explanations for why he wouldn't just tell Jillian and Tramennis what Parson's about to do. One is that he wants GK to win, because he's got some master plan that doesn't make sense to me going on. Obviously, given what I'm arguing here, I'm disinclined to accept that explanation. The other is that he's bluffing. He doesn't have any idea what Parson's about to do, he just figures that he's brilliant enough to pull something out of his sleeve and wants everyone to play it safe. Admittedly, you'd think he'd have tried a little harder to convince Jillian to turn back if that were the case.

He cannot possibly tell Tramennis, or even Jillian, exactly what Parson's plan is, especially if it's about to go off. Revealing specific information about something that happens immediately points to Charlie having some kind of inside link to GK's chain of command, which means he has incredible espionage capabilities that he's not sharing...he can't afford to reveal that he can listen in on Thinkagrams. If he tells Tramennis, Tramennis will almost certainly dismiss it as ridiculous and a clear attempt at sabotage. If he tells Jillian, she won't believe him either.

[cdrcjsn]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but if all Thinkamancers have an alliance against Charlie then that means either (or even both!) of the following two possibilities:

1) Charlie is a renegade Thinkamancer and the arkendish amplifies his ability to a great degree.
2) The Arkendish can act as a Thinkamancer to create a mindlink. If Charlie is also some sort of caster, then he only needs another caster to create a tri-link.

The Kingworld spell required at least a bi-link to cast, maybe even a tri-link. If all of the Thinkamancers in the MK considers Charlie an enemy, then he's unlikely to be able to hire one so the only option of creating a link is one of the two choices above.

That's one powerful ability of the Arkendish if it is indeed option 2.

Taken in with Charlie's stated preference for hiring Turnamancers (according to an Archon, ostensibly to boost Archon production), a bi-link/tri-link could explain how he can affect how natural units popped in other zones, the effects of which are seen both at GK (lack of gobwins) and at FAQ (unusual number of natural dragons that Stanley encountered along the way, allowing him to sack the city). It can also explain how the mountain giants turned on their side to ally with Jillian. I doubt a single Turnamancer can manage these effects, but a bi-link or tri-link would help a lot.

[teratorn]

Charlie also handles 90% of all thinkagrams anyway its his primary cashflow so he wouldn't need to bother hacking his own communications as any thinkagram not handled by a thinkamancer is handled by him.
Also Charlie is unlikely to be capable of reading every single thinkagram as there would be too many for him and he would have to look at each individual one its also proven that he has Archons he uses to handle
things to take the work load off of his shoulders.

So you're saying Charlie handles 90% of all thinkagrams and doesn't have the means to check the other 10%, a rather small fraction of what he's already doing? Doesn't make much sense. The archons can probably do that for him, they just need to look for a few keywords in the exchanges. It may be his big reason for the bounty, one of the archons with Parson may know about that (and he wants one alive to know exactly what they have told Parson).

I think the question with G-strings and messages is juice. Regular messages flow and need juice to keep the connection going. Eavesdropping on them probably requires an absurd amount of juice (you need to be tapping a particular string waiting for the message, connecting to the string for hours instead of the usual seconds or minutes). The Arkendish might allow Charlie to do that without spending juice.

[Dr Pepper]

Yikes, 7 pages already!

String theory makes a mess of physics in any universe.

I wonder if the Great Minds faction is entirely in sync with Marie and Janis's goals.